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Long tome lurker, and feel compelled to chime in because this episode deeply affected me. First let me just say, this is a heavy subject, so I think it is okay if many of us come at this from different angles with a good deal of passion because we have strong feelings about it. So I am not trying to take away anyone else's impression of the scene or episode by giving mine here. I am a man and this had a big impact on me as a viewer and really got me thinking sbout some of my assumptions. So my initial reaction to the scene was extreme discomfort, followed by failed attempts to rationalize the scene or dismiss it as me misreading what was going on. I found myself not wanting to see it as rape because I like the character of Louie and have been sympathetic with him for four seasons. But that look on Pamela's face, the way the scene just kept getting more and more intense and the use of the word rape, just made it undeniable. Louie was trying to rape pamela. That made me very uneasy, both because it was just unpleasant to watch and also because I had been trying to find some justification or excuse when the scene first occured, and I think this last bit was what Louis CK the writer was going for with the episode. Louie is a likeable guy, he would never rape someone, yet he did. And there have been hints about it all season long. First you had the episode where he punched the model for tickling him and sent her to the hospital. Then you had that sex scene with Amia, which felt like he was being too aggressive and made me a bit uneasy even though i dismissed it because ultimately Amia reciprocated. Then you had this scene. The framing of the scene struck me as important because I think the episode was also critiquing guys who talk the talk of feminism but dont internalize it and still treat women poorly in their regular lives. He spent all night on stage talking about how he got women's rights, how they were oppressed, how men abuse them, then he still goes home and tries to rape Pamela because he feels entitled to her love. I also think was a depicting of rape that is much closer to life than other shows (which usually make racists some other creepy character that is just on the show to commit the crime). I am sure everyone's life experience is different here, but the women I do know who have been victims of rape or attempted rape, were usually attacked by men they trusted, "nice guys" who were likeable and viewed as friends. That they had the stomach to take a character we have identified with over four seasons and make him the rapist I think really drove the issue home (at least for me). I think too often guys are willing to look the other way, or willfully misread signs, when one of their buddies is involved with something like this. So the episode for me, was about bringing that to the attention of men. All that said, I have no idea how they move forward from here. Nw that Louie has done this, can we really go back to the way things were? I am very curious how things will pan out in Pamela Part 2. Clark Kent fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 00:06
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Binary Logic posted:Louie didn't save his family, they could have simply stayed where they were. That whole contrived situation seemed to exist only as a sort of counterbalance to his attempted rape, as if to show us that he isn't or can't be really evil since he cares for his children. I think the point wasn't show he cant be evil, but rather to show his distorted sense of what it is to be a man, his delusional mindset, and how that ultimately leads him to do what he did to pamela. Louis is trying to act macho like and is using hollywood as his model. All these things that are positioned to show him as a good guy are not meant to excuse the rape scene. They are showing that the rapist is often the guy we know and like, who seems to me a nice guy.
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Jun 6, 2014 12:39
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greatn posted:One reason the scene is so problematic is Louie went out of the way to make Pamela really unlikable the past few episodes by making her be so horrible to Louie, so then people like that poster sympathize with Louie instead of the assault victim. It doesn't matter how much she insults him or flicks his balls(to paraphrase his stand up act), its still sexual assault and he's still an attempted rapist and its still 100% his fault. However he conditioned people like that poster to never think about taken her side. I had the opposite reaction. At first, yes i shared Louie's frustration that she made the offer and rescinded it (though that was her right and he was being selfish changing his mind after the Amia thing ended---really who wants to be the rebound). But that look of fear on Pamela's face right as the roe scene was starting made me sympathize 100% with her. It reminded me of the look of dread on that reporter who was assaulted by the crowd in Egypt (think it was Egypt at least). I think he had to do it the way he did to make his point, which was really that Louie is absolutely self centered and oblivious to anything but his own desires, that he is using woman like means to an end, and a little delusional in how he sees things.mhe wanted the make viewer to struggle with their own biases. I suppose there is the risk that some viewers will not struggle and accept Louie's behavior because the identify with him and like him. I found myself having a serious questioning of my own attitudes on the issue.
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Jun 6, 2014 13:03
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Binary Logic posted:
And the scene on the bus really highlighted what a hypocrite he is (at least in the past episode). I mean he just tried to rape a woman and now he is getting all self righteous about some guy spittiing on the bus. He also have to wonder, would he have done that if the spitter was white?
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Jun 6, 2014 13:05
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Super Deuce posted:You think Louis CK is trying to tackle rape, and race in one episode? With 10 minutes of television? It had nothing to do with the color of the man. I think it is possible he is taking on privalige.
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Jun 6, 2014 16:58
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Breadallelogram posted:He's not, and hahahaha. i am not convinced. I think Louie does seem to be acting like the entitled white guy in that scene. To me there seemed to be some importance to the man's race there.
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Jun 6, 2014 20:24
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Breadallelogram posted:Louie yelled at a (black) guy for spitting on the bus. Spitting on the bus is bad and Louie was right. If it was supposed to be about white privilege, why would he have written a scene where he (the white guy) was correct? Because in that instance he was not correct. It was a minor social transgression, something I think he would have given a white passenger a pass on. And Louie wouldn't let it drop, and kept riding the guy like he was a child. To me it felt like Louie was bolstered by his own position as a white male. I think I could be wrong, and i do acknowledge I don't know how to spell the word. However I feel like he made it a black guy for a reason.
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Jun 6, 2014 21:02
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Space Hamlet posted:I agree that the scene was about Louie's self-righteousness in the wake of his recent bogus epiphanies, but that doesn't mean it wasn't also intentional that the guy was black. It's easier to be a prick at someone when they have less privilege than you do, which made the scene a touch more believable, and also a touch more of an indictment of Louie. That is all I am trying to say. I am not suggetsing it takes away from the other elements. Just that it is there and I have trouble ignoring it.
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Jun 6, 2014 21:03
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Kevyn posted:Maybe the black actor nailed the audition. That is possible, and whether or not they were specifically casting for a black actor, the guy who got the role clearly nailed his audition. But I still think the most likely explanation, given the overall theme of the episode, the obvious power dynamic in play where Louie seems to be kicking down the social ladder, only to get served, lead me to believe race was a factor in the scene.
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Jun 6, 2014 22:16
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Manos del Sino posted:I'll admit, I was expecting it to turn into a Diff'rent Strokes PSA about inappropriate touching at first, but that impression dissipated as soon as the teacher tried to set Louie up with his daughter. I was thinking the same exact thing. I believe he wanted viewers to wonder which direction things would go with that teacher.
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Jun 13, 2014 12:38
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PostNouveau posted:Nah, if you listen to his Opie & Anthony appearances on youtube, he drops into that whole "political correctness is ruining society" bullshit a lot. Also, basically every time they talk about a woman, Louis will call her a oval office. Some of that might be him playing to Opie & Anthony's huge audience of dirtbags though. Pretty much most comedians dislike political correctness. Everything i have heard him say on O&A, i have also heard Jerry Seinfeld or Chris Rock say on interviews as well.
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Jun 13, 2014 12:46
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libertao posted:Of course not, but now it goes nearly entire episodes without anything funny apart from maybe one fart joke. Even other dramas I watch are funnier than this. And this is not some amazingly powerful drama with tour de force acting that would justify the departure. The show has never been that funny. If you want funny, I suggest watching his standup routines. But the show has really been more about situations that cringe worthy, unexpected or funny on reflection. The only big difference this season is there was more connective tissue between the episodes and this particlar episode was 90 minutes long. There is a reason FX didnt move Louie to its comedy network when they split their programming.
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Jun 13, 2014 14:08
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libertao posted:There is an enormous artistic space between a drama devoid of humor and a laughtrack sitcom or standup routine. Louie used to comfortably fill that grey area, just like Louis C.K.'s stand-up act has (e.g. the "everything is amazing and nobody is happy" bit). Nothing wrong with cringe humor either, but the show has self-indulgently devolved into...this. Meh. We much be watching two different showns then. I really dont think the show has changed that much, basically all through this season, to the last elevator episode things played out as in previous seasons in terms of laugh to drama ratio. Things turned with the Pamela episode, and that was probably a good idea because I think they understand it is hard to jump back in laughing with a guy who just tried to rape someone.
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Jun 13, 2014 14:54
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Breadallelogram posted:You've heard Seinfeld say oval office, human being, and friend of the family? No i have heard him complain about political correctness and its effect on comedy. Frankly i admire seinfeld's ability to be funny without resorting to profanity.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:50
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libertao posted:Grodin was fantastic. I wasn't saying the entire season has been devoid of humor, but some story arcs have verged upon that. I do have to say it was wonderful seeing Grodin in such a great role again. People forget what a talent he is.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:53
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Illinois Smith posted:Maybe you should rewatch those earlier weird & artsy episodes sometime. I'm trying to see where this opinion people in here have about the big dramatic shift in tone this season comes from, I think it's a combo of I rewatched the first three seasons before season four came on, and i agree. The tone and feel of the show really hasnt changed. And the humor is roughly in the same ballpark. There are tons of moments and episodes in the early seasons that have very few laughs.
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Jun 14, 2014 13:12
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Jake Armitage posted:I love how so many defenders of that scene were basically resting on the idea that its unfair to judge since it was just part one and we have no idea where it's going and Louis is making Louie a villain or whatever. Then he resolves the attempted rape in basically the worst way possible (he gets the girl? REALLY?) and a whole new set of justifications arise. I don't think his point was that if you try to rape someone you'll get the girl. That definitely doesn't seem to be what they were going for. I do think he may be toying with people looking for explicit moral guidance on rape from a TV show though.
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Jun 18, 2014 19:13
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