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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
omfg I loved those episodes so much. The conversation with the Doctor felt straight out of a Coen brothers movie.

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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
I think the forcing himself on Pamela scene was absolutely loving amazing and came out at such a perfect time, after all this Elliot Rodger stuff. It was kind of a brutal takedown of the whole "not all men" thing, showing how easily a normal dude can turn into a total creep.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer

whatshesaid posted:

I wasn't one bit disturbed by the "rape" scene. It's Louie and Pamela. They know each other well enough that this shouldn't destroy their relationship. She's a vacillating and conniving bitch, and he's a clumsy genius. I won't go so far as to say that she "deserved" it, but I understand it. He was frustrated and full of all kinds of emotions, and she was being purposefully ambiguous (read: bitch). He took a chance. Her joking around made it like yellow caution lights, instead of red stop lights. Or maybe I'm just so infatuated with Louis CK I can't find any fault in his artistic expressions. I dunno. But I'm surprised at all the backlash here. I didn't find a thing wrong with it, all things considering.

I feel like you're the kind of person Louie was trying to teach with that scene. Sucks that it backfired.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
It feels cruel to call CK the Kevin Smith of TV the year he seemingly finally learnt how to be a visual director.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Man, she wasn't that horrible. She wanted to date him, and he said no, then came crawling back to her and got rejected. She may have been bitchy, but that's always been her persona, he knows her like that. It was pretty fair really.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
I think it's more the general him trying to be more assertive and failing idea than anything to do with the status of the other guy.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Space Hamlet has a good point, I think. Obviously his race was a factor at least a little because everything about everything in a shot is planned to death, but I think it was more to add that undercurrent than any kind of more overt interpretation.

And trust me this is not the worst thread. The Adventure Time thread just spent ages fretting over whether the 15 year old boy and the lump monster actually had sex or not.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer

BIG CITY LAWYER posted:

Oh man, that would have been so freaking incredible

yeah. Renner is cool, but PSH was my favourite living actor. drat shame.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
It comes across exactly how it's meant to, though? CK didn't accidentally make himself look like the predator there (albeit a very goofy one).

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Another fantastic episode. Listening to that clip from a few years ago of him telling the same story is really interesting because it shows just how much this guy has grown up in the last few years. Sometimes it feels like we've been witnessing his transformation in real time, going from this "THE WORD friend of the family ISN'T THAT BAD GUYS" standup to someone capable of making these truly moving pieces that show a very deep understanding of the human condition. I understand why some don't appreciate the (in their eyes) heavy-handedness of this season, but I feel it adds tons of depth and has really elevated the whole show.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Plus Louie's mom also recognised something was wrong with her son and sent him to therapy to get him the help he needed. I don't think she was meant to be unsympathetic at all.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
yeah that's the same guy.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Yeah, trying to pin this down as a 'comedy' and complaining when there aren't 'funny moments' is actually kind of insulting, really. CK isn't bound to your expectations of what a show should be.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
I remember there's one bit in that Talking Funny HBO special where CK says "friend of the family" and Seinfeld starts shaking his head and being like "no, you can't say that" while Chris Rock cracks up.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
"God" is basically a template for what the show would become, and that was one of the most popular season 1 episodes by a long way.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
I spent most of the episodes thinking they were kind of ignoring the rapey bit (other than obviously mirroring that shot in part 2) but I think the last scene brought it all into focus for me. Louie thought she was just being purposefully standoffish and that if he pushed enough he could force affection out of her, and the bath scene shows that she genuinely really has trouble expressing that stuff, and not letting her be who she is is denying her her agency (as well as what he did being obviously wrong anyway). I hope this all makes sense.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer

Monicro posted:

no thats my expression toward your post

i mean there is a baseball player whos pretty good at raping but thats neither here nor there

But he actually didn't rape her. Not that it wasn't a minor sexual assault, and didn't have overt rapey undertones, but to actually say the character raped her is being way over-the-top.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer

LividLiquid posted:

I think artists have a responsibility to portray things in a way that don't contribute to the litany of media that damages social interaction in many capacities. The difference between one and the other can be as simple as shot choice, or even cutting a shot three frames earlier or later. It's not the events. It's how we're shown them.

[...]

I just don't like that Louie (the character) sexually assaulted Pamela (the character), and it was part of how he and I'm being deliberate here obtained her. He won the object by being aggressive.

I really wanted her to take him to task when he called her, and continuously remind him that he tried to rape her, and for him come to grips with what he'd done, while realizing that even her lovely, mean behavior didn't justify it. It really seemed like that's what was coming, too, because Louie the writer even wrote himself as the antagonist from the start. "This would be rape if you weren't such an idiot," etc.

The message I got instead, in the end, is that if you keep trying, and attempt sexual assault, you'll finally get the girl you've been pining for forever. But you have to accept her flaws first. It was pretty muddy.

I appreciate that you feel strongly about this, but in all honestly, the specific examples I quoted just scream to me that you're bringing your own preconceptions and laying them on top of the show. This is the same kind of argument we heard about Wolf of Wall Street from people who thought it was glorifying Belfort and co. Just because you wanted Pamela to chew Louie out and it didn't happen doesn't mean the show is advocating what he did, holy gently caress!

I'm sorry that a lot of people are stupid. I really am, because it's a consistent pain in the rear end. But it doesn't mean CK should have to dumb down his show or lay out these really obvious "rape is bad" points. There is nothing actually in the scene or any of the following episodes that glorifies what he did or suggests it was in any way okay.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Please explain where the evidence is, in the storyline, that the forced kiss led to him getting her, other than the sequence of events happening in that order. If anything, their conversation at the beginning of pt 2 makes it clear they haven't spoken for at least a short while (mirroring the break between parts) and that it made things really loving awkward between them? The outcome you're presenting just doesn't exist in the text, anywhere.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
No Wave you must really hate Gaspar Noe movies

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
All sexual assaults in movies are a waste of film because nobody actually thinks acting that way is ok!.....wait a minute this sounds wrong/dumb as hell

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
There could be something in the use of male force there. Even though each time is a different gender not properly comprehending what the other is trying to communicate, the women are the ones who end up with force being used against them on both occasions. Maybe not, though.

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
Yeah I was gonna say I bet they're probably all 40 minutes at least

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Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004


Grimey Drawer
"I'm exhausted! I'll just write, direct and edit seven episodes of a TV show and a movie this year. Need time to relax."

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