Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Those were great. Glad he took the time off if this is the sort of show we're getting - I think I prefer those two to anything in S3 already.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


beanieson posted:

I just love how happy he was at the end... he's telling this horrible story about how he's forever in debt to these people and his life is effectively ruined, but his misfortune made the girl (who'd rejected him earlier) laugh :buddy:
"You need to stop asking people out", ha ha ha. I can only imagine how monotonous it would feel to still be asking everyone around you out at age 46.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


I've found some of the extremely overt surrealism in Louie goes a little too far - like the garbagemen in that first ep this season, his car getting crushed in the first ep of S3. The tension's taken out of the joke a little bit.

The better examples were almost plausible, but extremely disorienting - like the kids with the weird hats in Road Trip and the homeless guy charging at him and getting decapitated. It's not so much "reality sucks", but "am I actually interpreting reality from a sane perspective?"

Also hilarious - when the situation is overt fantasy, like the "American women are very complicated" sequence when Louie tries (and fails) to masturbate.

And the one I was laughing about in the shower today for some reason - "Is that the same dog?" from the (incredible) weed sequence in S1.


EDIT: Also not sure why I think the phone thing was sort of blah but the people speaking gibberish from a few seasons ago was loving funny. Maybe because for the gibberish, you ask "Is he crazy for not understanding, or are they crazy for talking that way?" And the phone thing is just sort of a dig against modern behavior.

EDIT2: Maybe what I like about the show is how it deals with that constant sense of - am I doing something wrong? Always?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 14:42 on May 7, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


I think Louie certainly wasn't attracted to her. Look at the way he behaves with the cutie eastern european at the end of episode 4 - that's how he behaves with a woman he's attracted to. He lights up a little bit.

The experiential difference for him being around pie lady and Sarah Baker is the whole story. One just feels great, the other doesn't. And having to put up with fat rant makes him much less likely to go on friend dates with fat girls in the future.

I don't think any fat girls I've known want to be rejected by being told it's because they're fat. His whole opening monologue of ep 3 is about how women are better at subtle rejection, as if it's a good thing. Then he's the one getting harshly rejected and doing the subtle rejecting. Totally odd. Setting up this no-win situation for Louie doesn't make the viewer want to be around fat girls - it makes you want to stay away from them. Because the only way for Louie to win was not to play, because apparently multiple rejections and having to be bribed $1200 to hang out wasn't straightforward enough. Complaining about someone saying "you're not fat..." is like complaining that someone asking "How are you?" isn't actually interested in the depths of your psyche. Well, no poo poo, there are still manners.

Incidentally, it actually serves as a demonstration of why girls don't reject guys outright, because it's awkward. She's in the position of loser guys complaining "why won't she just be straightforward and say it's my looks????"


If Louie gets hit on by hot waitresses, and that does it for him, why would he date someone he's not attracted to?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 14:29 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


More importantly, Louie didn't treat her poorly. What should he have done differently?


EDIT: Thinking back on it, there's a really interesting assumption that Sarah Baker makes. She basically makes the connection that because he'd probably be okay loving her in the back room, the only thing keeping him from dating her and being happy is self-consciousness and the desire to please society.

To ask a stupid question - are there girls who actually think this way? Does anyone actually believe this?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 14:43 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


massive spider posted:

As much as people say that they like what they like and thats it I think the actual fact is peoples desires tend to sit in a grey area between "what I'm attracted to" and "what is socially acceptable for me to show I'm attracted to".
Look at his alternatives, and look how much of a perma-hard-on he has with almost every other girl on the show (some of whom he dates). Why would he give that up? That's a great feeling.

(I'm assuming that Louie is single for his own reasons, not for lack of dating prospects - the show seems to have demonstrated that.)

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Cheesus posted:

It's not about pleasing society; it's the fear of how he will look to society if he dates a fat chick. As in, the (ridiculous) self-perception that the best he can ever do is date a fat woman.

There may be legitimate reasons one would have for not accepting a fat woman, but they almost certainly don't apply to the lonely, fat guy who won't help himself be healthier. It's a lovely, stupid hypocrisy which is why he so richly deserved the monologue, realized she was right, and finally accepted her.
He had sex with a model in the previous episode. I get the show doesn't have continuity, but Louie doesn't strike me as a guy without options. How many women has he had sex with over three seasons? Nine, some of whom were hot? (First season: fat childhood friend, fat black woman, "you're old and smell", second season: blueberries, Joan Rivers, third season: first ep break-up, Melissa Leo, Maria Bamford, fourth season: Yvonne Strahovski). He consistently seems to be able to get dates...

It's not "hypocrisy" to like being around more attractive people. It's a feeling. Clearly he seems to be able to do it, judging by the waitress's obvious interest in him in that same episode. It's also not hypocrisy to prefer to be around funny people if I myself am not funny.

If Louie was someone who hadn't had sex in years and turned her down, yeah, we'd have a conversation. But for all the sadsack "I'm a loser" stuff, he's pretty clearly not, and one of his running jokes is how weird it is that these girls like comedians. God forbid he have options based on something other than looks.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 15:09 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


massive spider posted:

Sarah is totally right about him not wanting to date her because he's scared of the stigma though.

You know shes right because shes saying to him, on the show he writes and produces. She is Louies own self perception that he could gently caress a fat girl but not date her echoed back to him by another character.
It doesn't read at all in his body language. The negotiated handholding vs his pie euphoria speaks entirely differently.

You can be okay with loving someone and also not want to date them - and it could have nothing to do with stigma. It could have to do with the fact that he likes being around other girls way, way, way more - as we're shown. Just because Sarah said it in a long upworthy-esque take doesn't make it canonically true.

Personally, I think it's kind of mean to date/forge an emotional connection when you're way more interested in almost everyone else and know there's absolutely no long-term potential.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 15:20 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


The show does not have plot continuity. He seems to like his mom IRL for what it's worth so she probably is more like religion mom than lesbian mom.

Red posted:

Can anyone recap the episode where Bobby and Louie meet their mother for a meal, and she decides she's Lesbian? I remember being mesmerized by the exchange, but now I can't recall it at all, especially Bobby's reaction.

And am I right in remembering they've depicted his mother in conflicting ways? Besides that episode, where she comes off looking really dumb, I feel like Louie has the childhood flashback to his mom telling him about religion, and she comes off as being pretty wise.
Bobby gets really upset at the idea of his parents divorcing (I think) and wants to hear from his mom that she loves him, and she refuses saying that she won't be bullied. Louie just sort of watches.


EDIT: Also want to say that so far this season has been a huge improvement over S3. Time off good!

No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:46 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


King Vidiot posted:

While this is true, the core statement was about the treatment of women, not fat people. But everyone here was making it into solely an issue on being overweight vs. being fit, which was a statement covered in that monologue but not the main one. At best it was a secondary concern, the primary one was inequality of the sexes.
Why doesn't she just date someone who looks like his fatter bang bang friend instead? Guys that fat exist by the millions in the US, and they're very available.

And the thing that we're missing - if (as the show implies) girls are attracted to guys based on more factors than weight, then they're probably overlooking guys who lack those other factors. Either way we're choosing based on something. Is it better to be attracted to someone because they're funny and famous than because they're good-looking? Or if a girl would date Louis CK but wouldn't date someone who looks like Louie but isn't funny and famous - is that bad?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


King Vidiot posted:

...'kay.

I'm not really sure what that has to do with what I posted.
Did anyone actually think factors of attraction are identical between the sexes? Or that that's supposed to be the case? The speech wasn't an attempt to show people something they didn't already know - it was an attempt to get sympathy (why, who knows). People focus on the weight thing because they're saying why she isn't getting their sympathy.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


King Vidiot posted:

Well no, the speech wasn't solely about the different factors of attractiveness. There was also something in there about how women's sole worth as human beings is based on how physically attractive they are. That's why Louie felt he had to reassure Vanessa that she wasn't fat. He thought he was being kind, but what he was really saying was "Your body weight is the only measure of value as a person, because you're a woman".

Louie may feel that his own value is based on his weight, but what he doesn't realize, and what Vanessa tries to explain, is that for men it doesn't matter. Other men don't really judge him. Women (for the most part), don't really judge him unless he's being pathetic about it. Women can tell men they're not attracted to them, because men can be valued for other things. Men have to avoid telling women they're not physically attracted to them, because if a woman isn't physically attractive she's subhuman. And that's what the speech was saying, primarily.
Clearly she has value beyond her looks within the episode. Two jobs, one of them social and customer-facing? It doesn't translate to romance, though, and the monologue's focus was entirely based on romance. "Look how good we look together!" "Hot guys are okay flirting with me, because they don't secretly know we belong together!"

After all that bullshit he's probably going to ignore the next fat girl even harder so that he doesn't have to feel bad about not wanting to date her, because that's now apparently something dudes should feel guilty about. She interprets his lack of interest as interest (wtf, really), so what the heck is he supposed to do next time?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:48 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


King Vidiot posted:

I'm not saying that she doesn't. I'm saying that Louie's internalized this attitude that women only have value if men find them physically attractive.

You're kind of deflecting everything I'm saying so that it fits whatever you believe, which I guess in this case is "sexism is over" or something.
Maybe he thinks that telling a girl that has a crush on you (and that bribed you $1200 to go on the date!!!) that she's fat is impolite. Crazy poo poo, truly toxic social attitudes.

I'm not sure what I'm deflecting so maybe something is getting lost in communication here.

ChairMaster posted:

Jesus loving christ, people watched the whole episode, including the beginning where Louie and his brother go eat two full sized meals at two different places in a row after deciding they're not gonna be fat anymore, and they still could think nothing but "well stop being fat then you stupid fat bitch"? You hate fat people just as much as everyone else in the world, we get it.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can actually be bad at watching television. I mean it's the easiest poo poo in the world and you still gently caress it up. Come on.
Actually, that was a pretty strong endorsement of the idea that fat people eat too loving much. Not saying that I necessarily agree, but if throughout the show Louie constantly goes into how he's fat because he's dumb and eats too much - is that suddenly not true of other people?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 18:09 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Yoshifan823 posted:

She says at one point something along the lines of "I'm sorry, but you're gonna represent every average guy who has ever been this way to a fat woman". It's clear she's not just angry with Louie, but that he is every man who has ever said "oh, you're not fat..." or not dated her or whatever.

And yeah, this doesn't feel like a complaint solely about being fat, but it's about being a woman. The complaints she has aren't simply about her being fat, but about how a woman being fat and a man being fat are two completely different things, and how unfair that is. Her losing the weight and becoming skinny wouldn't magically fix everything, it would just create a whole new set of problems. It would be like a stereotypically ugly woman talking about the differences between ugly women and ugly men. Saying "oh well she can just lose the weight" is missing half the point, because she can lose the weight, but she can't just grow a dick.
I don't think she was complaining about being a woman in general. I'm not really sure where you're getting that from.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Yoshifan823 posted:

Not specifically about "just" being a woman, but about the differences between being a man and a woman. It's less about the fat/not fat divide and more about the fat man/fat woman divide. She didn't spend most of her time talking about skinny women, but about fat men.
Yeah, which is the interesting part. She holds it against the fat men who don't want to date her, not the skinny women who are giving them other options.

EDIT: She's also significantly more portly than he is. She's more mad that she can't date "up", not so much that she can't date "across" (quoting an old CK stand-up). Although he is older i guess.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 19:20 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Irish Joe posted:

Being talked down to is what triggered her rant and I can't help but wonder how she would have reacted if he had just been honest and called her a disgusting pig.
I think in the case people are polite, she'll be sick of people lying. In the case where she's called a disgusting pig by everyone, she'd be upset that people wouldn't be nicer.

But the real problem is that she's fat and the guys she likes don't want to date her. Changes in word choice aren't going to change that.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


SA's a pretty stupid place for you to be. It's the only readable forum I know of where extended back-and-forth exchanges are possible.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


massive spider posted:

Remember, Louie is a comedian, it's demonstrated that she's pretty quick witted as well.

Their whole relationship has got these back and forth jibes going on it's only when they get to the fat thing that Louie suddenly puts kids gloves on "oh you're not fat...". Because he feels sorry for the poor fat girl and weird about bringing it up.

Calling her a disgusting pig is a bit much, but I'm sure he could have acknowledged that yeah, she's fat in some jokey way.

It's not the fact that she's fat per se which is the issue, it's the weirdness Louie/people have about addressing it. Like she said, ideally she'd want to be able to make "lol I'm a fat slob" jokes about it like Louie does without people acting like she's going to kill herself.
I think she'd give up both to get the dates she wants.

nutranurse posted:

The proper response would have been for Louie to go "Lol, you think YOURE fat? Let me tell you about what a Bang Bang is."

Then launch into a funny story.
She's a child now? This is how we treat adults - worrying about the "proper response" all the time? How hosed is that, two adults having a conversation and one has to learn how to "handle" the other. gently caress that.

Note that you're doing the same thing as Louie, you're just trying to be better at it. It's not a game worth winning.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Tokelau All Star posted:

Again, it's Louie's voice that is being heard during the speech. A real person wouldn't stop and monologue on Louie and men in general like that. The show gives Louie the opportunity to give a "Louis C.K. Rant" through the kind of person that is affected by regular joes who think being seen with a fat girl will somehow hurt their image.
I thought the Inbetweeners movie did a better job of that. Because it would be a lie to say that it doesn't a little sometimes, but if you like them it's obviously worth it.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


a.) Being openly called fat by Louie
b.) Self-deprecating fat jokes

nutranurse posted:

Jesus you're insufferable. Proper response as in "haha lets continue this funny line of conversation by me also revealing something about myself," not some kind of weird whatever the gently caress it is you're getting at.
Theorycrafting conversations is the sign of an anxious and unhealthy mind. I used to do it. It's real loving bad.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 20:23 on May 14, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


nutranurse posted:

I completely forgot that Louie cast a black lady as his ex-wife, what was his reasoning for that again? Just because?
He wanted to fight the stereotype that all white children had white biological mothers.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Alfred P. Pseudonym posted:

What more reason is needed?
I'm being dense, but it's cool, because I'm being... progressively dense.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


nutranurse posted:

I mean, I'd get it if the kids looked even a little mixed, but they clearly aren't so what's the deal.

Coulda created some great casting opportunities for some mixed race child actors.
He cast the kids in S1. That wife only showed up in season 3. And the kids are PERFECT, it's impossible for me to imagine that those three aren't an actual family.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


verybad posted:

Uh, no it's not? It's perfectly normal. Sorry about your anxiety issues, buddy.
I truly believe there exists some combination of words. There must exist certain words in a certain specific order that can explain all of this, but with her I just can't ever seem to find them.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Yoshifan823 posted:

I dunno, I haven't seen a single "god what a fat awful bitch she needs to just shut the gently caress up" or anything that heinous. There are obviously some people who are a little off, but no one who is outright beligerant and awful (though saying he should have called her a "disgusting pig" is getting up there, thanks Irish Joe!)
The good news is that that's not what Irish Joe said.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


LividLiquid posted:

The story she tells details very explicitly that tons of guys are willing to have sex with her, but none of them are willing to admit it publicly. They like her. Everybody likes her. Louie likes her. But they're all unwilling to show this to the world, because they'll be mocked for loving a fat girl.

It's a really spot-on critique of masculinity, double-standards, and (not-a-spoler)hating on fat people, which I've been told I'm not supposed to talk about.
It feels OK to Louie to be around Sarah Baker. It feels amazing to him to be around someone more attractive. This is a good formula for dumping a gently caress into her but not wanting to date her. He refrained from holding her hand until she pestered him because holding hands is how we show some degree of attraction, something that he did not feel.

Do you not just feel better when you're with girls that you're more attracted to?

And also - what makes you think Louie likes her? He displays none of his usual idiocy that he does around girls that he's into.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 11:16 on May 15, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Bifner McDoogle posted:

I think the issue people have is this carries a massive set of assumptions on her part which unfortunately make her appear more entitled than frustrated. This is exacerbated by the fact that in the episode Louie just doesn't seem all that into her. The tone and presentation suggests that we are supposed to empathize but the show made a huge misstep by making that part of the speech rest on this assumption when all the available evidence suggested that said assumption was false. I think this is more a failure on the part of the show than anything else - we're supposed to identify with this women and rethink the way that we treat fat women but it fails to demonstrate that people are not loving her for no reason other than they are embarrassed by being seen with her. This ends up conflating men who just aren't into fat women (which is totally fine, can't deny someone their preferences unless they diddle kids or blow goats) and men who are into fat women but don't express it because they are cowing to social pressures. The latter is a terrible thing for every person involved and reflects some seriously hosed up attitudes on the part of that man.
I don't think this is a knock on the show at all though. Sarah isn't a stand-in for all fat girls - there are fat girls in relationships in America (duh). Louie's constantly about how Louie himself participates and exacerbates his own repetitive cycles of misery. She does the same thing - she goes after guys who aren't into her. There's a simple solution to her problem, but really, the inability to settle is almost every lonely single person's problem.

I've had a lot of male friends, and I talk about stupid and weird poo poo with them. Embarrassing poo poo. Not one of them has ever been into fat girls. I don't think there are all that many men who take fat over thin out there, and I don't think it's an issue of shaming.

Bifner McDoogle posted:

This a really minor misstep that wouldn't bug me if Louie wasn't such a great show already. But it does bug me a bit more than it should, if only because I could go on for pages about how hosed society is when dealing with fat women - from the double standard to the focus on appearance over health to the billion-dollar 'fitness' industry exploiting this in ways that emphasize form over function and offer nothing in terms of healthy living. It is absolutely mad that society tells women they can't lift weights when lifting weights is an essential part of getting in shape, that it tells them to buy into temporary fad diets that don't work and then shuns them for failing to lose weight when they are trapped in a maze of disheartening bullshit. Then they get smacked with moral judgments tailor made to convince them that they are inherently flawed as people opposed to just temporarily living an unhealthy lifestyle. By focusing on sex the show misses a golden opportunity to explore all these issues, instead focusing on a sexual aspect that are ultimately deeply personal, contradicted by the other parts of the bit and ultimately a more a symptom of the counterproductive way that society treats fat women.
This is a totally different story, and is totally un-Louie. Louie's more about how we participate in our own problems.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Darko posted:

I -think- what Louie was getting at was that a lot of "average"* men who will probably invariably end up with a chubby woman do not treat them in the same manner that they do women that they feel are out of their league in that interim period before they settle for whoever they want. They know the big woman is good for them, are relatively attracted to them, and realize it's about as good as they're going to do because they're the social equal to them. But they don't "claim" them in public or chase after them in the same way because they have dreams of getting "better" even though they don't merit it themselves. They want to be perceived as a top-level guy, but aren't, so they're extremely self conscious about being too close with the larger woman that they actually know they'll probably end up with and like well enough.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and I agree that the speech would have had a lot more weight behind it if Louie didn't actually have other options. It would be more like she was upset that the guy couldn't let himself be happy (in the process making both of them happy) instead of continuing his futile quest.

But I do think it's actually interesting that she's accusing Louie of being unrealistic while being unrealistic herself. This is why claiming someone who's not interested in you is being unrealistic is always funny - perhaps it is you who is being unrealistic?

Bifner McDoogle posted:

This is a really bizarre attitude to me that does not line up with my own experiences at all. I'm gay, though, is this really a common way that people think about women and relationships? My experience has more been more that men who are just loving around are shallow because they are not looking for a committed relationship, that they basically chase the hottest people available because they are looking for something shallow and temporary and are going to focus on it for that reason. Then when they go for a serious relationship the range of personalities they are looking after narrows and the range of body types they are into increases. The whole hierarchy you've set up here seems pretty out-there to me but I only understand shallow relationships between two men, not so much between men and women.
It's going to depend on the generation and the culture, but he's not wrong. Lots of people these days feel like they're judged on the basis of the hotness of their SO, probably because they themselves judge others based on the hotness of their SO.

Most single dudes I know would gently caress anyone not gross for a month. Why not? I don't really understand the distinction between "dating short-term" and "fuckbuddy".

No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:10 on May 15, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Jake Armitage posted:

I'd be horrified if I watched that play out. Honestly, if you are going to stick with this "men and women are all the same and should be treated the same" line of thinking, at least be consistent. The Pamela story line was disturbing to me for that reason, because he was being the "aww man you friendzoned me!" guy that no one should ever be. Every time he brought it up he made her uncomfortable by putting her in the position of having to explain to him why she wouldn't have a relationship with him, which is a really messed up thing to do to a friend. There's only two ends to that exchange: either she finally puts her foot down and hurts his feelings enough that he stops that nonsense, or she caves in and fucks him which is insanely uncool. There is no good end to it, and you guys are really missing the fact that that exact same scenario just played out in front of you in reverse.
I dunno - the part I remember best from the Pamela storyline was him telling him he loved her. It was a wonderful moment. He wasn't being pestering or manipulative, and he didn't try to guilt her. I think a guy's allowed to be honest with a woman if they're hanging out together, even if his feelings are inconvenient.

Pamela also seemed far from uncomfortable. She thought it was funny. I can imagine the scenario in which she is uncomfortable, but she wasn't.

Plus, in the airport later, the joke is clearly on him.

(I'm actually not sure which episode you're referring to, but there may have been a scene where he was being annoying and pathetic. I forgot it, probably. But IIRC he gets punished for being pathetic and annoying, so I think there's nothing wrong with that portrayal.)



I totally agree with you about the S4E3 scene, though.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 22:29 on May 15, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Jake Armitage posted:

Rewatch the finale, when he takes her to the airport, but think from her perspective. Maybe it was just my reading, but it was painful. She was just trying to have a nice goodbye and he made it really odd and uncomfortable, just standing there like an idiot puppy dog while she's saying out loud "just wave to me idiot". My read was she just wanted to have this play out like it would with two friends, and he just couldn't or wouldn't.
Yeah, you're right about that. But I think the show made it as uncomfortable as it was. I don't think Pamela comes off poorly in that interaction to anyone watching.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


King Vidiot posted:

edit: Also you added "beautiful"... which changes it even further. Louis C.K. is not a bad looking guy but he's not ruggedly handsome. It'd be more like if Louie and Vanessa's roles in the episode were reversed, and she was the successful comedian and he were just somebody who worked at the club.
Could you imagine a waiter browbeating a successful comedian for not finding them sexy because they're too fat? Madness. And that's what we just watched.

EDIT: Oopsie, double-posted.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 15, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Binary Logic posted:

And after seeing the first 2 episodes, he's lost his sense of humour. Don't know if I should even bother continuing to watch this season.
He and Seinfeld both use observational humour but Louis' shtick of "Oh look at me, I'm pathetic and hopeless" is tired and kind of odd given his recent successful tours and stand-up career.
It often makes me sad and feeling sorry for them when people who make their living from their public persona can't even be bothered to have a healthy diet and get in some exercise.
Does anyone feel sorry for Louie? There are a few scenes, like the car-crushing, the garbagemen, and Liz's death which imply that the world is out to get him (which I don't like, and was one of the things about S3 I wasn't into), but normally he's a pretty active participant in his issues. I don't think the show's meant to imply that his issues are outside of his control (especially his weight), because where it actually matters to him, like with his kids, he's very competent.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


regulargonzalez posted:

Now that Community is dead, I nominate Louie to be the reigning "best show with worst thread" champ. Do I have a second?
If morons like you keep posting this garbage, yeah, it's inevitable. Glad you were bold enough to go through with this post after your ninja edit yesterday.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


I want more fat guy in a towel. I think Louis CK knows a lot more about the weird chemistry between two middle-aged single dudes hanging out than whatever this awkward romance thing is.

Also Pamela totally sucked this ep, wtf. Louie the character is especially weird and anxious this arc. (also some of the weakest stand-up that's been on the show)

Interesting that he did the same thing with foreign girl as he did when Pamela offered to take a bath with him - sulking and not hearing what was said. He also tried to replay the Russ and Daughters experience with Liz - maybe it's an indication that he really wants her to be something that she might not be?

The problem with having the doctor say "nobody cares", is that the viewer can only agree, yuuuuup.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 14:36 on May 24, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Jake Armitage posted:

Except normal guys don't generally turn into total creeps. Total creeps turn into total creeps. I don't even know what you are trying to say here. Every man is a potential sexual assault waiting to happen? :wtc:

If I give him any benefit of the doubt for that scene, then I think he was trying to show how the same behavior can be sexy and hot and work in one set of conditions, and completely fail and come off violent and horrific in another. But its a lovely point to make, because if you can't tell in that moment that its not appropriate and unwelcome, something is terribly wrong with you and you should seek help. And that goes double when the girl is repeatedly saying no and pushing you away, as Pamela was. There's playful resistance, and then there's get away from me you disgusting creep and the way that scene was shot didn't leave an ounce of ambiguity. The more I think about it, the more I can't believe what I watched.
It's a broader problem for the character, especially in this arc, when he's like a dumb baby constantly looking for cues on how he's supposed to act from other people. But this application was completely over the top. I can't imagine anyone identifying with the form of his actions there, it was so absurdly too far. Like at this point the character is flat-out retarded.

I just don't get wtf is happening. S2 of this show was most sublime series of television I've seen by about a mile - I don't understand why he's wasting film on this grotesque stuff.

Mutation posted:

Thinking back on it, the stand-up bit in the middle of episode 10 is probably the most on point one this season. What with the whole "Oh, you're 28 and you think you are already locked in for heaven?" and the bit about the abuse of women.
The stand-up was incredibly self-serving, which I guess was sort of the point. Who in America doesn't take domestic violence against women seriously? I can't think of anyone I know who isn't viscerally shocked at the sight of a man hitting a woman. People gasped in horror at Wolf of Wall Street, a movie in which a plane blows up for laughs.

If you want to talk about feminism on the show, talk about how useless his ex-wife was when push came to shove during the hurricane.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Jun 4, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


If as the VF article suggests that was maybe an explanation for why Irma would have been unhappy with the sex they had, it is an answer to a question that nobody was asking. Louie's been so pathetic and weird this arc that really nobody needed any help understanding why she would regret sex with him, and really, I sort of wondered why she'd be hanging out with him at all (pre and post sex).

Now - what, he raped her, too?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Jun 4, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


TheRationalRedditor posted:

Here's a thought: how about everyone step back and let a dude more infinitely funny, insightful, and truly compassionate for social injustices than y'all ever will be finish his story before churning out more outraged, mealy-mouthed thinkpieces, the only thing the internet needs less than the end of net neutrality.
So what compelled you to click over and navigate to this thread, the one place online where you might go to talk about this show before it's over? Maybe you're an idiot?

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


TheRationalRedditor posted:

This thread does not consist solely of hysterical users wringing their sallow little hands shrieking "LOUIE WAS A RAPE FAN ALL ALONG! TOTAL MISSTEP!!", so I'm come here for the occasional thoughtful post by anyone less intolerably wretched, goon.

Instead of reflexively launching the kneejerk outrage brigade, one might focus on how that intentionally disturbing final scene was a compressed dark mirror of Louie's relationship with Amia. That aggressive physical struggle was edited to nearly match his wordless seduction of Amia shot for shot.

Except this time he's selfishly, boorishly projecting the desire onto his longtime friend who is very much capable of the verbal communication as Amia wasn't. Louie was idealizing and romanticizing the ended relationship where he didn't need to concern himself with the "hassle" of reciprocal communication, because if he doesn't have to talk to a partner like Janet then he doesn't have to concern himself with getting tripped up in his own jumbled words when his actions are questioned. Foisting this kind of madness onto Pamela was exactly as deranged as it seemed, and there's still two more episodes in the arc to go.
There's been very little outrage.

People have primarily been saying that it's extremely unpleasant to watch. And it is. I'd only subject myself (or someone else) to watching something that unpleasant if I really felt I'd learn something from it, but in this case the character is so un-identifiable that there's little to learn. I'll take unpleasantness if it's an indictment of some sort that needs to be heard, but I can't possibly imagine that anyone watching thought that scene was about them.

Louis CK is enormously skilled at getting people to identify with his perspective. This was an utter failure, and it literally caused disgust to watch it. Why would I want to feel disgust if I'm learning nothing from the experience?

No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jun 4, 2014

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


precision posted:

Anyone outraged over the scene should probably remember that the show has been strictly surreal since season 3.
Again, no real outrage, because Pamela herself called it rape and Louis continued anyways. The outrage generally occurs when rape is presented with any degree of ambiguity.

The two biggest criticisms made when rape is on TV generally involve claims that the show either normalized rape or trivialized it. In this case, it was a hugely uncomfortable directly-addressed deal and the rape didn't happen, so it's avoided both of those things.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jun 4, 2014

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Jake Armitage posted:

The scene ended with him forcing Pamela to kiss him, and then Louie curling his hand into a fist and hissing out a "yesssssss" when it was over. I think its safe to say it was normalized and trivialized.

I know you are saying there is no outrage here, but for the record, I'm outraged.

[edit] one of the reasons I'm outraged is because a huge chunk of his audience is Reddit neckbeards, and if you think they are going to take away any feminist message or other such nuances from that scene, you're dead wrong.
No, you're dead wrong on this. I challenge you to find any group of people that is writing that that was something for Louie to be proud of. And talking about this scene specifically.

No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jun 4, 2014

  • Locked thread