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DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
Has anyone else here read Trail of Lightning? It’s more paranormal romance than UF, I think, but I was looking to see what other people think about it.

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DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Apparatchik Magnet posted:

Marcone wants the bad thing to stop, but wants to blackmail or control the bad people, I guess. Because Marcone is Actually Bad himself.

Sounds typically nuanced for Butcher’s take on this character.

Marcone has a super soft spot for children for Reasons, but is also not above having a bunch of paedos under his thumb to torture/use as patsy’s

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

StrixNebulosa posted:

Oh hey I can help here, give you a brief overview of the UF I've read/am reading:

Mercy Thompson: is good, is very good. I've read the first two, but have been warned that 3 contains graphic rape. I'm going to read it still but not yet, am reading a buttload of other stuff first.

Chicagoland Vampires: This is very pleasant fluff, and probably closer to PNR so far. While it's about a college student who gets attacked and turned into a vampire, and she's coping with her changes, in this universe vampires are hot, powerful, can eat food normally, and are basically superpowered hotties so she's honestly better off than she was. In this universe she's being trained to fight with a sword because proper vampires don't fight with guns, it's not honorable. Oh and when she finally accepts him, she'll become a sworn member of House Cadogan and get telepathy with Ethan, lord of the house and super insane hottie. They're fighting the attraction they have for each other but yeah. This book is stupid and I'm delighted, it's pure popcorn fluff.

Chronicles of Elantra/Cast in Shadow: My favorite UF, I've posted about it before but tl;dr it's a fantasy hybrid where our heroine is a cop trying to solve murders in a city ruled by a dragon. I'm into book 4 and there is no romance, only cool/weird fantasy races (to the point that it's more like sci-fi in some regards), and the magic is weird and awesome.

Hollows by Kim Harrison: After killer tomatoes decimated the human population in the 60s, supernatural races revealed themselves and now in modern day america a witch named Rachel works for the IS, who are basically magic cops. While arresting a leprechaun for tax evasion, she decides that she hates her job, frees the leprechaun in exchange for a wish, and moves in with her vampire friend Ivy in an abandoned church. One problem: the IS sends super-assassins after anyone who tries to quit, so Rachel is going to die. Or she should, she's probably the biggest moron of a protagonist I have ever met, but she's funny and I'm enjoying watching her get into and out of scrapes. I'm a hundred pages into the first book so if it goes bad I don't know yet.

World of the Lupi: This one has strong PNR hints through it (the heroine spotted the hero and instantly got horny) but so far it's sticking to solving the murder of a dude, dealing with werewolf discrimination, and the politics of the werewolves themselves. It's well-written, which is a nice bonus!

Dante Valentine: The most 90s novel so far - I'm 200 pages in - a couple hundred years in the future, we have flying cars, hoverboards, licensed necromancers, confirmed that Lucifer is real but God isn't, and our heroine gets a demon pointing a gun at her face. Lucifer, you see, wants her to track down a rogue demon. He's granted her a demon familiar (who is very hot) and well, she can't say no. At all. So now she's hunting a demon, hating her new demon familiar, and calling in all of her contacts to help her find this demon. No romance so far (though he is hot) and it's been focused on Dante being a badass and dealing with problems instead. I cannot describe how 90s punk it is. I love it.

Half-Light City: ... yeah sorry this one is PNR. It pretends to have a plot (and for what it's worth, the plot is fun. Vampires versus fae vs humans), but it's all about getting the heroine and hero to bone.

Kitty and the Midnight Hour: God I devoured this. A werewolf starts a night talk radio show about supernatural problems and accidentally winds up becoming the voice for the supernatural community as it struggles with itself + coming out to humans. But it's also about the werewolf and her messed up situation - she starts the book as a wimp in an abusive situation. Her pack alpha rapes her on a regular basis, she hates being a werewolf, and when she starts her radio show her pack tries to make her stop...which leads to her starting up self-defense classes and beginning to find a way for her to grow up and get out. I was rooting for her so much and by the end of the book she's in a much better place and I'm so relieved. There was murder to solve along the way, but this book was really about Kitty growing a spine and getting the hell away from her abusers. Good stuff, and yes: no romance! Hints of it at one point but it was way more about her growth and I loved that. Will the rest of the series hold up? Not a clue!

Books I have sitting near me, ready to be read when I can get to them: Night Huntress, Jane Yellowrock, Anita Blake, Dresden 2, Imp, October Daye, Blood Destiny, Kitty 2, Mercy 3, Alpha & Omega, Bitten. Plus more of my favorite PNR author Nalini Singh. She writes quality garbage! :D

Thank you for your amazing post.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
Whoever recommended October Day was spot on. I’m listening to the first book right now and it’s going to be my next binge .

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

ImpAtom posted:

Thomas rapes people to death. Thomas raped *children* to death. There is no real complexity there. If some one rapes and murders to stay alive maybe they shouldn't be alive.

Do you know where we get dairy milk and veal?

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

ImpAtom posted:

Not even remotely close.


So here's the problem with that, and it's a problem with a lot of vampire fiction but doubly so here.

Every vampire, no matter what, chooses to sustain their own life at the cost of others. This is a basic part of the concept. Even if they only take life when they 'lose control' that does not change that fact that they have to literally murder people to survive. The White Court (or at least Thomas's part of it) adds in "must rape AND murder to survive." No amount of "but maybe Thomas only targets bad people or only does it when he's badly hurt" changes the fact that Thomas is a ticking time bomb who only sustains the thinnest covering of 'good guy' as long as he is never actually put into a position where he is at risk. And then he pals around with Harry Dresden and is part of a secret super war so he knows drat well he's going to get hurt enough to need another of the ol' rape-murders eventually.

Now you can go here "but Thomas only does that when he's out of control or really has to" but you ignore the fact that Thomas rapes people. Straight-up. He uses his magical vampire seduction power to destroy people's inhibitions or make them sleep with him when they wouldn't normally. He can only stop this when he is actively choosing to rape instead. No matter what Thomas does he rapes people. Butcher plays this as a joke but uh, that doesn't really work when we see other kinds of mental violation on a regular basis which *is* treating as horrible and disgusting. Thomas being hot doesn't make what he does any less rape.

Thomas, like every vampire character, is built on the idea that the audience is okay with him murdering people so he doesn't die. This is a hard pill to swallow at the best of times but with Thomas you have to include the 'also mentally (and frequently physically) violating people' part and the part where literally any other kind of character who does this is treated like they are Space MegaHitler. Every other character who has to struggle even an iota gets poo poo on constantly while Thomas does significantly worse in every single appearance he's in (he literally saves the day with rape in his first appearance) and never actually suffers an iota of the consequences for it. Even when he is literally responsible for a group of murders the treatment he gets is "aww poor babby Thomas is suffering so much, time to cure him with a threesome" and not, you know, everyone being utterly disgusted by a literal rapist who occasionally murders his victims being part of the inner circle

Forcing captive animals to impregnate each other and then stealing the resulting child to slaughter and eat while forcing the mother to continue lactating so we can have her milk is nowhere close? You want to talk about violating consent and bodily autonomy? How about river otters or ducks? Do they deserve to stop existing?

I’m not saying you’re wrong about Butcher, although I disagree with some of your premise, but heinous poo poo has been done for food since carnivores and omnivores started walking the earth, and nature is completely hosed. I get that you’re approaching this as an outside examination of the author/work, but from an inside view saying “you don’t deserve to live because your source of food is wrong” is simplistic, or you are actually advocating for wiping out a shitton of life since for a good chunk of the food chain each meal involves a murder.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Necrotizer F posted:

Well, yeah, but there is a considerable difference between eating animals and eating sentient beings.

Let's recall that Thomas the sex vampire was introduced in Grave Peril, which was published in 2001. Blood Rites, which is the books that "sets the rules" for the White Court, was published in 2004. Thomas as a character has not appeared since since Cold Days was published in 2012. While he's written a few short stories, Butcher hasn't published a new novel since Skin Game was released in 2014.

While the concept/phrase was coined in 2006, the #MeToo movement and the greater awareness of and sensitivity to sexual harassment/rape/etc. didn't really take off until Oct. 2017. While the show is more sensitive now, I can still recall Eliot Stabler on Law and Order: SVU referring to transgendered people as "he-shes." Stuff that's awful now was frequently fully acceptable when it was made. Cultures change.

The real test for Butcher on this issue will be the forthcoming Peace Talks. I suspect that it will have a lot to do with the White Court and we'll see how Harry ends up dealing with them and especially his attitude toward them.

I disagree on the whole “eating a ‘sentient’ thing is worse” but that’s more for the science/philosophy threads. I agree with everything else and I’m looking forward to Peace Talks.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
He does make an excellent patsy.

Re: October Daye. I just finished The Winter Long and I am still enjoying it, although the Luna/October and Sylvester/October dynamic now is annoying me, a lot of which is fueled by Toby’s reactions. Also, I continue to laugh at “Here kitty, kitty” even though that was Book 2.

Thank goodness for audiobooks helping me get through some of these names.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
Finished book 13 of October Daye. The audiobook version even had a novella at the end. It was really good, and I like where I think the story is going and where it’s been so far. Now I have to go pick up the rest of the side stories because holy poo poo do they have some important things in them.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

EVGA Longoria posted:

Which novella did it come with?

I think In Sea-Salt Tears is the only one that's really plot relevant, and most of that's covered after reading The Unkindest Tide.

The others are great character work, but so far none of them are plot relevant afaik? Still worth reading.

To be fair, it’s not plot-relevant really, but Toby bringing January et al back from the loving dead caught me a little off guard as a couple of throwaway lines.

The short-story/novella is Hope is Swift and makes me feel lots of emotions, some of them pleasant. The reader is really good too.


I think I’ll pick up the first Jane Yellowrock next, it sounds like my cup of tea.

DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Nov 14, 2019

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

aers posted:

The past half a dozen books or so have all had a novella at the end I think?

This list is a few years out of date but still useful, and half of them are downloadable free: http://seananmcguire.com/tobyshorts.php

Oooh, thank you!

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

immoral_ posted:

Not at all UF but if you haven't read the Redwall series by Brian Jaques, it might scratch that itch a bit.

I used to love Redwall a lot, but I eventually got tired of the way it handled weasels/ferrets/stoats/rats

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

M_Gargantua posted:

I remember reading Black Jewels around 2008 and yet remember almost nothing about it. I wonder if it holds up at all if I reread it.

No. At least not if you’re tired of gendered stereotypes

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Exmond posted:

I'm at work, so I can't phrase this better. The Black Jewel series is great, but can be "problematic". I doubt it would get published today.

“Problematic” is the perfect word for it.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
I’m listening back through the October Daye series from the beginning since I have more free time over the holidays. I have so many questions about Marcia.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

StrixNebulosa posted:

Hey thank you, I enjoy posting my impressions of what I read and I'm glad people enjoy 'em.

Also shoutout to my awful cold for making me want to go back to easy reading. Fantasy has been my bag lately but UF is just so much easier to read and track.

I forget when Anita Blake goes full off the rails, but I’m excited to see your takes as you progress.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

StrixNebulosa posted:

As I understand it, it... completes? advances? its genre-shifting in Obsidian Butterfly. Which I am genuinely excited to read, because as I understand it, the series doesn't go bad, it goes.... well, as one poster put it, it goes on a roadtrip across the genres in a very author-indulgent way, and is messy as hell in interesting ways. And there's a lot of sex.

I still don't know if I'll enjoy the series when this happens but I really do want to see how it evolves.

I think it basically shifts into the genre of Hamilton’s Gentry series re: where the focus of the story is and just how much banging the main character does.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
I like Anais' analysis of it, and I want to say I've read up to Obsidian Butterfly (it's been a while and I don't remember super-well), but I'm primarily a fan of her Meredith Gentry series up until, I want to say A Shiver of Light, and I definitely saw a similarity in story focus shift and the quality of writing decrease between them both as the series goes on.

Also, when I say there's a focus on the characters banging, there's a LOT of focus on the characters banging. I'm still excited in seeing your reaction to it.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

StrixNebulosa posted:

I recently read the first hundred pages of Merry 1 due to a friend goading me into it and I gotta say, given how much sex is in it already I'm curious to see how she can fit even more sex into it.

I also have to say that I really enjoyed it. It felt very much like Criminal Minds: gently caress Edition. I was going to read more of it but then I picked up Lunatic Cafe and first things first, I do really want to see how LKH goes from writing a heroine who is "no sex. ever. gently caress you." to Lunatic Cafe "sex after marriage only" to Merry Gentry "sex now"

Also part of why I enjoyed Merry's first hundred pages so much is that it's the first time I've seen any author - published or fanfic - deal with a gently caress drug in a realistic way. Normally in fanfic it's "oh no we have to gently caress now because of the drug" and maybe there's some angst afterwards but they kiss and make up, but in Merry she treats it like the date-rape biohazard that it is, puts herself at risk to convince the police that it's real and they need to treat it seriously, and is overall scarred by the experience. And then she fucks her selkie boyfriend so hard he spontaneously gets his skin back and dumps her to be a seal. I burst out laughing at that part, it's so true to everything I know about selkies.

You should finish it, and then book two. I like them because it’s porn with plot.

I will warn you that it gets intense when she goes back ‘home’ for a visit and it sets off an... interesting storyline. So trigger warnings, especially for abuse and torture.

DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jan 30, 2020

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Angry Lobster posted:

I can buy most of it, but what I don't get is how could he knew about Nemesis and the corruption in the Council, all that stuff is supposed to be top secret, even among wizards.

He’s the assistant to the head Warden and apparently knew Dresden’s mom, so I’m assuming he’s able to have access to things that only the Council might get to know, or know things from a different source

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
I mean, there’s a lot we don’t know about Harry’s family’s interaction with the Council.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Everyone posted:

Presumably there's plenty of other people/artifacts/places/etc. who do. I'm fine with a Murphy got better because [insert deal/power/complication that causes problems AKA story].


He'd presumably promise to decapitate her.

gently caress it, it's Dresden Files. Butcher's style seems to be stuff everything into a big-rear end idea cannon, fire it at a wall and see what sticks. And it's been pretty entertaining so far even with the Molly Tits crap.

Honestly the “blow everything up and then use the remains to build another bomb” approach is the best part of the series.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

biracial bear for uncut posted:

The existence of the White Court and trying to make any of them sympathetic characters ought to drat the series by itself.

There is a lot of media, especially stuff that started 10+ years ago, that has problematic aspects, especially when it comes to sex/gender/sexuality etc. Criticism of those is fine, but people are allowed to enjoy things with problematic content without feeling like someone’s jumping all over them.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

StrixNebulosa posted:

Psycho faerie queen held a knife to Merry's eyeball and threatened her into agreeing to gently caress her hot guards, even one she chooses to be a spy for her. This book is a RIDE.

:allears:

These were actually either my first or second ish series that I read when I was like 13/14 ish that dealt with sex stuff explicitly. They are a trip and a half.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
I’m pretty sure that was a set up to show how !!evil!! the skinwalker was and what a ~tortured soul~ Thomas is. Remember, it was the one that tortured Thomas and then also the one that dragged the victims to him while the ‘demon was in control’.

DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Mar 28, 2020

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

docbeard posted:

I'd argue that the White Court are the worst thing in the Dresdenverse for exactly that reason.

They're certainly the most dangerous of the vampire courts (with the possible exception of the Jade Court who we know basically nothing about).

Between the Outsiders, Nicodimus’ assholes, the unknowable/unmentionable things being smothered by the Oblivion war, the firbolgs and whatever other bullshit is hiding behind the curtains and is more than willing to exterminate or control large swathes of humanity/the world /reality, I kind of have to disagree with you on that point. Superpowered predators who need to guard their food source isn’t the worst thing for humanity to deal with in the Dresdenverse by a long-shot

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

biracial bear for uncut posted:

You literally just argued “if they enjoy it, is it really rape?” in complete ignorance of what actual real world rape victims go through when their body responds to a rape in the exact opposite way from their thought processes.

Again, the White Court should be exterminated just like the Red Court.

No, they didn’t.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Everyone posted:



That doesn't make the White Court nice or good or anything less than exploitative supernatural predators. They’re still rapists even when their victims don’t feel raped. Still, one can understand how Dresden can tolerate them as something like allies because they don't spread terror, destruction, obvious trauma and death wherever they go.

They were talking about the literal mechanism of their lust voodoo being, in most cases, overwhelming horniness that the average jane/joe thinks is coming from themselves, even if that’s not the truth. IE the victims perception of the situation.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Aerdan posted:

I'm not sure I'd call it urban fantasy, as such, but I'm about a third to halfway through Beauty, by Robin McKinley; it's a retelling of "Beauty and the Beast". It's slice-of-life and ambiguously Age of Sail Genero-Europe, and while it does mention witches and magic fairly early on, you don't actually see it for quite a while. It's well-written and worth a read on its own merits, at least, though.

I love Robin McKinley’s stuff. If you want her ufish story and don’t mind (absolutely not sexy) vampires, try Sunshine.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
Speaking of books coming out this year, I’m pretty excited about the next October Daye novel coming out in September.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost
Please stop bitching about/people bitching about Dresden Files.

For anyone who’s been keeping up with October Daye and the synopsis for the new book. I just did a reread.
I’m still almost convinced Marcia and Danny are one of the Three or Firstborn. I’m pretty sure that we’re going to see at least Oberon in this upcoming book given the fact that it’s basically about having to fix Simon. Any ideas on how many more books are supposed to be in the series?

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Sloth Life posted:

There's a new October Date? Dead chuffed. I really like that series, it's the antithesis to Dresden.
I like InCryptid too, but that ones a bit eyeroll worthy and the three main characters all sound exactly alike (even the bloke)

A Killing Frost releases September 1st, you can even preorder it!

I like it for that reason too, especially since there are multiple non- joke LGBT relationships and characters (I like the way Walter was handled, especially in the context of Faerie culture.) Although it is pretty white.

Akata Witch is next up on my list.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

biracial bear for uncut posted:

Everything they have done is good.

Same for everything N.K. Jemesin has done, too.

I'm backtracking through stuff by Martha Wells after reading the Murderbot books.

N. K. Jemisin is amazing and very often heartbreaking and I read/finished her Shattered Earth trilogy while my mom was in the hospital/shortly after she died and the Afterword (IIRC) of the last book left me in tears. I think The City We Became is her latest, right?

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Deptfordx posted:

It's worth noting that a failed pacemaker doesn't have to be immediately catastrophic

Chronic patients may be 'Pacemaker Dependant' but it's just an aid that's perfectly survivable in the short term for many.

Failed is not the same as catastrophic damage

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Everyone posted:

Still, we know that it can be deadly. Otherwise Harry wouldn't be so reluctant to go to hospital for fear of harming patients.

TBF, besides the joke I made earlier about Pacemakers exploding, the deadliness seems to be more of the powers causing a complication than the actual action of his powers.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Avalerion posted:

Meanwhile I finished October and... yea that was just a big bunch of nothing right through the end. :confuoot:

Sorry that having multidimensional characters without blowing poo poo up isn’t your cup of tea.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Sloth Life posted:

October Daye is generally low action, more about fostering relationships, mediation between the haves and have nots, repercussions of royal actions and the past affecting the present. It has high stakes but it's more world council and less world war. poo poo is solved with getting stuck in and finding things out.

This is a pretty fair assessment and probably why I love the series so much because I really appreciate characters and relationships (both romantic and non) and I really appreciate how seriously violence is handled (for the most part barring you-know-what) on a personal level.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

torgeaux posted:

It's why my interest in the big story is less than in the individual stories that make it up. In order to justify that almost all of his friends and allies are loving despicable, the bad guys have to be orders of magnitude worse. Why are you friends and allies with rapists? There are worse things. Why are you friends and allies with the guy who runs prostitution, drugs and theft in your town? There are worse things. Why ... and so on. It really seems like sloppy writing getting papered over with new elements as time goes by.

His stories are good, very entertaining. The set pieces really roll along. The story overall? Stupid as can be on cursory examination. What are the names of the bad guys Thomas fights in the short story, the ones he is trying to make people forget?

It’s the Oblivion war, but I don’t think that the things they’re trying to get people to forget have a specific group name like the Outsiders.

DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Zore posted:

Like for real who the gently caress decides to tell a rape victim 'Actually its totally your fault they mutilated you and scooped out your eye because you didn't explicitly tell them not to do that. K, time for you to get raped again.'

Ugh, I feel gross just reading the excerpt.

I think it was supposed to establish/enforce the nature of interaction between the Fae being close to contractual even in the worse circumstances but yeah, it’s hosed.

It also gets worse.


Edit: Trigger warnings and spoilers might be good if we keep discussing it.

DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jul 27, 2020

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DreamingofRoses
Jun 27, 2013
Nap Ghost

Sloth Life posted:

I will avoid anything else written by Anne Bishop like the plague then.

Holeeee shiiit.

Funnily enough those specific Anne Bishop and LKH were really the first adult ‘romance’ series I got into as a tween.

Now that I think I about it, it explains a lot.

DreamingofRoses fucked around with this message at 12:18 on Jul 30, 2020

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