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Heath
Apr 30, 2008

🍂🎃🏞️💦
I'm a fan of pathways but you have to think real hard about which side to play. I've caught myself a couple of times wishing I had played the other side.

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berenzen
Jan 23, 2012

Tarnop posted:

Where do the pathways fit in the hierarchy of quality duals for commander? I currently have the Khans fetches, and a full set of shocks, crowds and pains, plus a random scattering of hybrid filters and checks.

I'd put them below painlands, but above filter lands and checklands. If you're running a 2-3 colour deck, you'd probably run one, because you probably have basic land slots that you can cut, but I probably wouldn't put them in a 4-5 colour decklist that can run all 10 duals and all 10 shocks. They're not bad, but the fact that you can't fetch them, and you're stuck with a single colour that they can tap for once they hit the board makes them uncomfortable to play with if you're playing with decks that have a lot of multicoloured cards. It's hard to go llanowar elves into tymna, for example, with one of your lands being a pathway because of the 3 different mana requirements to hit by turn 2. 3 colour is probably the most colour diverse that I'd go with pathways, just because there are better choices for cards to put in (OG Duals, shocks, crowdlands, horizonlands, painlands and fetches gives you a total of 35 land choices in 4 colours, 60 land choices in a 5-colour deck, not including incredibly powerful lands like gaia's cradle). Throw in some basics to give yourself outs against non-basic land hate, and you've already comes incredibly close to maxing out your land slots.

They do come in untapped 100% of the time and tap for coloured mana without needing another coloured mana source, so if you have a lot of basic lands slots in your deck still, you can look at cutting them to put in a pathway. Never cut the last basic land slot in your deck though- then you're just going to be backbreakingly weak to non-basic land hate.

checkplease
Aug 17, 2006



Smellrose
What are some strong includes for a winota deck with a no-infinite combos stipulation? This week my playgroup wants to have no combos (which I dont like, but gotta compromise sometimes), so guess wining via damage here.

I was starting from that cedh database stax list and adjusting for more combat focused game.

Framboise
Sep 21, 2014

To make yourself feel better, you make it so you'll never give in to your forevers and live for always.


Lipstick Apathy

checkplease posted:

What are some strong includes for a winota deck with a no-infinite combos stipulation? This week my playgroup wants to have no combos (which I dont like, but gotta compromise sometimes), so guess wining via damage here.

I was starting from that cedh database stax list and adjusting for more combat focused game.

The cEDH list is so so so good and you can just cut the infinite combo stuff out (I think Ian just put Kiki-Jiki loops in it) and maybe throw in some big tide-turners like Elesh Norn, I'd say.

Like seriously, every time I watch that deck get played it's exciting. It goes out of control so quickly and the stax falls like snow in the midwest.


Meanwhile, speaking of fun stax decks, I've still had my mind on Akiri/Malcolm: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/425ETHjTzEeMWiD_T8aKjQ

Lots of Rule of Law effects, Chalice, Sanctum Prelate, Trinisphere, etc while you fetch up Glint-Horn Buccaneer and go off.

Framboise fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Feb 22, 2021

Balon
May 23, 2010

...my greatest work yet.

checkplease posted:

What are some strong includes for a winota deck with a no-infinite combos stipulation? This week my playgroup wants to have no combos (which I dont like, but gotta compromise sometimes), so guess wining via damage here.

I was starting from that cedh database stax list and adjusting for more combat focused game.

I did a winota tune up that turned out really strong. Solid etb themes that split the list in to goblins and humans for ideal flip ratios.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

by VideoGames

checkplease posted:

What are some strong includes for a winota deck with a no-infinite combos stipulation? This week my playgroup wants to have no combos (which I dont like, but gotta compromise sometimes), so guess wining via damage here.

Heath
Apr 30, 2008

🍂🎃🏞️💦
You mock us, Mr. Rodd

Aranan
May 21, 2007

Release the Kraken
It sucks but Rick is actually really good for Winota.

Just print one out and put it in a sleeve in front of a basic land.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!
Etsy is your friend.

checkplease
Aug 17, 2006



Smellrose
Nice Winota video Balon, gives me a few ideas.

I will probably focus on the stax plan still, but add some beaters. Definitely adding Rick and maybe Benalish Marshall.

Clawtopsy
Dec 17, 2009

What a fascinatingly unusual cock. Now, allow me to show you my collection...
Kinda fallen in love with Kalemne’s card art, has anyone had any experience with a giant sprinting across the countryside? Any tips for a build?

Tenasscity
Jan 1, 2010




Proxies are your friend too:




fffffffffffuck Help me I can't stop!



For Trying times:

Tenasscity
Jan 1, 2010




Speaking of Obeka, I'm currently brewing for her and I had a question.

Can I use her to avoid effects listed as both "end of turn" and "Beginning of the next end step" with one activation? (Let's assume it's my turn)

Say I have a Jin-Gitaxias in play with other EOT triggers Id rather not let resolve. Is it possible to manipulate the triggers so I let his "draw 7 cards' be the first out, then activate Obeka/sundial to avoid the rest?

Heath
Apr 30, 2008

🍂🎃🏞️💦
I will not accept a blonde Marchesa

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Tenasscity posted:

Speaking of Obeka, I'm currently brewing for her and I had a question.

Can I use her to avoid effects listed as both "end of turn" and "Beginning of the next end step" with one activation? (Let's assume it's my turn)

Say I have a Jin-Gitaxias in play with other EOT triggers Id rather not let resolve. Is it possible to manipulate the triggers so I let his "draw 7 cards' be the first out, then activate Obeka/sundial to avoid the rest?

Yes, when the ability resolves the turn ends. As active player you decide which order triggered abilities go on the stack. You put Jin Gitaxis effect on the stack last, so that it resolves first, then you gain priority and activate obeka/sundial.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

by VideoGames
I have no problem with proxies/alters but bear in mind that for many older players, tiny aesthetic details like frames and artwork are how we’re tracking board states. So if you’re playing a deck entirely out of alters and proxies, the courteous thing to do is to maybe remind people of what’s going on with your board every now and then. Sometimes I can get frustrated because I need to ask a question which potentially gives away my play because we’re on webcam and I can’t just look at your board and instantly know what’s going on.

“That’s a bad block because I have X” “Remeber this card is Rick, so all my humans are 5/5s” etc. can go a long way and you don’t wanna misrepresent your board state during games.

Framboise
Sep 21, 2014

To make yourself feel better, you make it so you'll never give in to your forevers and live for always.


Lipstick Apathy

Bust Rodd posted:

I have no problem with proxies/alters but bear in mind that for many older players, tiny aesthetic details like frames and artwork are how we’re tracking board states. So if you’re playing a deck entirely out of alters and proxies, the courteous thing to do is to maybe remind people of what’s going on with your board every now and then. Sometimes I can get frustrated because I need to ask a question which potentially gives away my play because we’re on webcam and I can’t just look at your board and instantly know what’s going on.

“That’s a bad block because I have X” “Remeber this card is Rick, so all my humans are 5/5s” etc. can go a long way and you don’t wanna misrepresent your board state during games.

This is the exact reason that if I do make proxies, I want them to at least have the same art as the real deal. Not because alt-art proxies are bad or anything, but I identify a lot of cards by how they look so having something that looks completely different will muddy up the board state for me.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

Tenasscity posted:

Speaking of Obeka, I'm currently brewing for her and I had a question.

Can I use her to avoid effects listed as both "end of turn" and "Beginning of the next end step" with one activation? (Let's assume it's my turn)

Say I have a Jin-Gitaxias in play with other EOT triggers Id rather not let resolve. Is it possible to manipulate the triggers so I let his "draw 7 cards' be the first out, then activate Obeka/sundial to avoid the rest?

The big thing to understand about "end the turn" effects is that if they're used at any point other than during the end phase, they will move you to the end phase and then any bad-juju EoT effects will be put on the stack. So, if you have a Final Fortune or whatever effect active, if you Sundial/Obeka before the lose-the-game effect it placed on the stack, you will lose the game.

Edit: Well poo poo. Apparently, I've been under the impression that it skips to the end step and not cleanup. :psyduck: gently caress a duck.

AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Feb 23, 2021

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!

AlternateNu posted:

The big thing to understand about "end the turn" effects is that if they're used at any point other than during the end phase, they will move you to the end phase and then any bad-juju EoT effects will be put on the stack. So, if you have a Final Fortune or whatever effect active, if you Sundial/Obeka before the lose-the-game effect it placed on the stack, you will lose the game.

This is entirely wrong.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

AlternateNu posted:

The big thing to understand about "end the turn" effects is that if they're used at any point other than during the end phase, they will move you to the end phase and then any bad-juju EoT effects will be put on the stack. So, if you have a Final Fortune or whatever effect active, if you Sundial/Obeka before the lose-the-game effect it placed on the stack, you will lose the game.

Sort of but not really.

Any "at the beginning of the next end step" abilities don't trigger because you skip the end step. They will just happen in the next end step (which might be your opponents). Things that last "Until the end of turn" will expire because the turn still 'ends'.

Tenasscity
Jan 1, 2010




I thought the idea was that we wait until the "until the next end step" abilities go on the stack. THEN activate Obeka. Since they triggered once, they won't do it the next time.

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Tenasscity posted:

I thought the idea was that we wait until the "until the next end step" abilities go on the stack. THEN activate Obeka. Since they triggered once, they won't do it the next time.

Yes, that's how you kill those effects permanently. But the important bit is that when you End the Turn, you do not have an "End of turn step" that turn you exile the stack and go straight to cleanup.

Heath
Apr 30, 2008

🍂🎃🏞️💦
"At the beginning of the end step" is a specific marker in time, while "at end of turn" is triggered by the turn proceeding to end. The end of the turn will happen whether Obeka activates her ability or not. What it does is exile all of the triggers placed on the stack by the turn ending

Toshimo
Aug 23, 2012

He's outta line...

But he's right!
Almost nothing occurs "at end of turn" anymore. Check the oracle text on your cards.

H.P. Hovercraft
Jan 12, 2004

one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse
Slippery Tilde
here's the kroxa primer that pseudanonymous wrote for goonhammer that contains all the various end of turn triggers and how "end the turn" effects interact with them

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

here's the kroxa primer that pseudanonymous wrote for goonhammer that contains all the various end of turn triggers and how "end the turn" effects interact with them

Oh god I hope they’re right.

skip to the middle of the article, there's a bunch of me ranting about how certain abilities don't interact with the game right like ninjutsu and morph, which you probably don't care about.

pseudanonymous fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Feb 23, 2021

H.P. Hovercraft
Jan 12, 2004

one thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse
Slippery Tilde
lol obeka's gonna become one of the saltiest commanders in edhrec's database simply by virtue of causing arguments

Infinite Karma
Oct 23, 2004
Good as dead





Toshimo posted:

Almost nothing occurs "at end of turn" anymore. Check the oracle text on your cards.
It's "until end of turn" effects that Obeka can't do anything about, Obeka is a-ok with stopping any possible delayed trigger.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Infinite Karma posted:

It's "until end of turn" effects that Obeka can't do anything about, Obeka is a-ok with stopping any possible delayed trigger.

Well I mean... she can end them.

Heath
Apr 30, 2008

🍂🎃🏞️💦

H.P. Hovercraft posted:

lol obeka's gonna become one of the saltiest commanders in edhrec's database simply by virtue of causing arguments

I have her in my Mairsil the Pretender deck :chaostrump:

LordSaturn
Aug 12, 2007

sadly unfunny

I feel like they changed this at some point, possibly when they started printing more "end the turn" effects, but ending the turn now evidently skips directly to the cleanup step, per 717.1d:

quote:

The current phase and/or step ends. If this happens during combat, remove all creatures and planeswalkers from combat. The game skips straight to the cleanup step; skip any phases or steps between this phase or step and the cleanup step. If an effect ends the turn during the cleanup step, a new cleanup step begins.

but the need to wait for the end step before ending the turn is still real, because the "gotcha" for end-step triggers that don't specify what turn they're looking for the end step of, will just be on the following turn's end step

besides, if it's your own turn, why not wait til the end step, just to be sure

Tenasscity
Jan 1, 2010




Thanks for the info. To my understanding:

Until end of turn is like a battery, it's full of charge until it runs out at the cleanup step.
Until end of combat can be circumvented.
Exile/sacrifice at the next end step can be circumvented because delayed triggers will only happen once, (Unless there is some kind of stipulation, for example, saying EVERY end step.)

So I can keep Feldon tokens, Myriad Tokens, Encore tokens and the like. But I cannot make effects like Insurrection or Molten Primordial stick around.


Another thing I like about Obeka is that she can be a weird Counter spell if the current player agrees. Say it's player B's turn and player C casts a overloaded Cyclonic rift. they might agree to end the turn quickly than rebuild and give Player C a huge board advantage.

LordSaturn
Aug 12, 2007

sadly unfunny

for Feldon and Encore, the trigger is "at the beginning of the next end step" so either you wait for your own end step, then dump the turn and the trigger with it; or else you end your turn during main 2, skipping your own end step, but then the triggers are back at the beginning of the next player's end step

for Myriad, AFAICT "at end of combat" means "at the end of the specific combat phase during which this trigger created the tokens" so ending your turn before combat is over makes the triggers never happen. not sure about this, don't really want to go into the comp rules for citations atm

"until end of turn" is a duration-based continuous effect rather than a delayed trigger. getting your creatures back from Insurrection doesn't go on the stack - all the token deleters above, DO go on the stack. (remember the ORing blink trick, and how BLight fixed it?) duration-based effects end when their duration is over, as a state-based action I believe. it Just Happens.

Pantsless Hero
May 25, 2004

Serv-Bot will kick your ass.

Clawtopsy posted:

Kinda fallen in love with Kalemne’s card art, has anyone had any experience with a giant sprinting across the countryside? Any tips for a build?

https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kalemne-vs-the-world/

I keep tinkering with this one. Used to run Copper and Gold Myr as effectively EtB tapped rocks I could equip later on. I just got a Calamity Bearer to work into it, thinking about what to cut. More like Kalemne-ty Bearer. Maybe Cryptic Gateway/Stormfront Riders for infinite EtBs and tokens. I also want to make room for Maul of the Skyclaves for evasion and beatdown in one card. It could probably use some more aggressive equipment. I should get a Sigarda's Aid for sure.

CODChimera
Jan 29, 2009


woah. some of these look really good

Clawtopsy
Dec 17, 2009

What a fascinatingly unusual cock. Now, allow me to show you my collection...
https://wegotthiscovered.com/gaming/magic-gathering-lord-rings-warhammer-crossovers/

Going to need some help building my Boromir and Rogal Dorn decks, thanks.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.
We are all fans of these other universes. Many of us imagined what it might be like to play a game of Magic with Gandalf the Grey, sketched out how we might translate the One Ring to Magic, or wanted to build a deck around the mighty Space Marines. In many ways, Universes Beyond is us living out those dreams of our own.

Nope. I opened a loving alpha black lotus, I've never imagined "playing against Gandalf" because it's a completely loving different world and the whole concept is stupid.

Though I'm sure many people have, in fairness, "what if the one ring was a card" lol equipped creature is unblockable. 2 mana 1 to equip, and some kind of... corruption thing maybe. Put corruption tokens on a creature when this creature deals combat damage and if it = cmc you gain control.

So maybe Gandal but 40k?

Robviously
Aug 21, 2010

Genius. Billionaire. Playboy. Philanthropist.

The One Ring should give a creature Shadow :colbert:

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

pseudanonymous posted:

We are all fans of these other universes. Many of us imagined what it might be like to play a game of Magic with Gandalf the Grey, sketched out how we might translate the One Ring to Magic, or wanted to build a deck around the mighty Space Marines. In many ways, Universes Beyond is us living out those dreams of our own.

Nope. I opened a loving alpha black lotus, I've never imagined "playing against Gandalf" because it's a completely loving different world and the whole concept is stupid.

Though I'm sure many people have, in fairness, "what if the one ring was a card" lol equipped creature is unblockable. 2 mana 1 to equip, and some kind of... corruption thing maybe. Put corruption tokens on a creature when this creature deals combat damage and if it = cmc you gain control.

So maybe Gandal but 40k?

The One Ring - 2
Artifact - Equipment
When The One Ring enters the battlefield, you may equip it to target legendary creature you control.

Equipped creature gains +5/+0 and shroud and can't be blocked.
At the the beginning of your end step, if The One Ring is equipped to a creature you control, put a -1/-1 counter on it, and you gain 1 poison counter.

Equip 2

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Heath
Apr 30, 2008

🍂🎃🏞️💦

Robviously posted:

The One Ring should give a creature Shadow :colbert:

Protection from all except Nazgul

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