|
Fryhtaning posted:Can someone tell me if the ending was accurate to the book? Because that was some Michael Myers poo poo that I just watched. Only in a Halloween/Scream/IKWYDLS movie would someone with a) a spear through his throat be able to speak, and b) literally one heartbeat from his own death be able to explode someone else's skull. Came here with this sentiment. I'm fine with Oberyn losing or whatever, but this was an extremely dumb scene. "lol he wasn't actually wounded, GOT YA!" despite being speared at least 1 foot through the chest. ROH-KAY  It's like the red wedding where 500 soldiers kept a perfect secret etc. and it was this preposterously elaborate plot. Kill Jon? OK fine. Masterstroke of writing, nobody saw it coming because you wanted to have him avenge Ned and all your hope is crushed. But the way it was presented in the TV show? loving lol are you serious? It's like they bring in a retarded guest director for some important episodes.
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 05:24
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 23, 2024 16:15 |
|
|
^ That's ok, they have license to make it not terrible.Roman Reigns posted:And how he smashed that guy's head in with his bare hands?! THATS JUST CRAZY No like if The Mountain had just unceremoniously chopped off both of Oberyn's legs mid air while he was dancing around and then crushed his eyes like that, it would have been fine. But instead they picked the most retarded TV trope of all time "THE VILLAIN ISN'T Vehementi fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Jun 2, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 05:31
|
|
|
quote:I think you need to watch that scene again because you clearly missed most of it. Oberyn himself even say he's not dead. Roman Reigns posted:But he wasn't dead at all to begin with. It's why Oberyn was yelling things at him, and why he was being stupid for not stabbing him in the head instead. Yeah no poo poo, as I said in the first post you quoted. It's the same trope - you think he's incapacitated for obvious reasons, but he's actually at full strength for made up reasons (being a monstrously strong or large person has no bearing on that, as the show has shown us so many times etc.) and completely defeats the guy and you sit there with a lol, okay dude. look on your face.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 05:35
|
|
|
Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Eh, I don't think it's quite as you're describing. It's not like he just didn't sell any of those wounds, Oberyn just didn't go in for a killing blow when he should have. I doubt The Mountain would have been able to jump right back into the fight. Again Oberyn impaled him square in the middle of the chest at least 1 foot deep (check out the blood as he pulls the spear out) with his full body weight landing on him. Guy's lungs are full of blood etc. but, naw, he can get up, punch with full strength and overpower the guy while talking. It's just bad writing, there are so many ways they could have done it better if they weren't I guess afraid of GRRM or something?
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 05:49
|
|
|
Manic Mailman posted:so uhh did the mountain really die? i wasn't to clear in all the excitement. Also Jorah getting kicked he's gotta be a valuable asset to someone no matter what hes done. Seems foolish that she'd kick him - you'd expect these masterful plotters to keep him around (under guard) and continue to make use out of him (perhaps now more than ever since he will want to prove himself). I guess retroactive anger that her dead baby was hypothetically threatened is a stronger force.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 05:55
|
|
|
I think it's at her ridiculous journey to get here being maybe pointless.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 06:24
|
|
|
rydiafan posted:1) Rolling over isn't getting up. ??? Go watch it, he gets up, he's kneeling over Oberyn. Upon rewatch he actually lifts Oberyn's entire body over him and to the other side, with one arm, then fully gets up onto his knees and speaks a few sentences with a popped lung and a giant hole in his chest. But yeah. Wizards and dragons. Makes it all really believable and well written 
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 06:51
|
|
|
Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Besides, the details of the fight aren't even the point. Absolutely, with fuzzy goggles this is great writing or whatever. Just when watching the scene I'm like "lol ok". When you zoom back out and gloss over the details there's exciting poo poo to come.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 07:08
|
|
|
Asehujiko posted:Because Gregor suffered from multiple large stab wounds in his chest and was weakened to the point where he couldn't even support himself on his good leg. Then he lies on the ground bleeding(and poisoned) for a while and suddenly he is fit enough again to hulk out and crush the head of somebody who just happened to forget his legendary knife skills with which he could have easily saved himself. But he's the mountain, don't you see?
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 22:44
|
|
|
BubbleGoose posted:Don't write the show off just yet. I know it's easy to feel that way, but you gotta trust GRRM's instinct on what should happen to these characters. As for Sansa, I don't see how she's 'a barely functional lunatic'. If anything, she's becoming more politcally savvy than any of her siblings (which I always expected would happen). The Sansa/Littlefinger alliance is very promising. Not only did Sansa did the best acting job of her life fooling the lords of the vale, Littlefinger followed up by turning accusation onto them. If not for the drat ice zombie apocalypse headed their way, those two together could conquer Westoros. Not a quitter but there's this common thing that apologists for this show will say, it's along the lines of "Yes that guy got gruesomely murdered / she got tortured and raped to death / whatever, but it's all part of Tywin eventually dying", as if Tywin not otherwise ascending to godhood makes any of it worthwhile. Ho ho ho, Ned was killed but there was a war that inconvenienced Tywin's plans - see, it all worked out! Yes... there are basic consequences for things happening... I'm not sure why that's held up as some sort of legendary feat of GRRM.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 2, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
WeLandedOnTheMoon! posted:Oberyn's ultimate goal was vengeance. He could have finished the Mountain off, but instead he continued to harp on some showmanship bullshit of wringing a confession out of a person who can hardly string a sentence together. I'd call that arrogant. If you want to say that his ultimate goal was the confession then I would disagree, but still, arrogance definitely got him killed. He wanted the confession to point to Tywin so he could proceed to dismantle them. Killing the proximate perpetrator is easy and not his ultimate goal. Mountain lost the fight then pulled a "Scream" resurrection for troll value
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 01:52
|
|
|
quote:Renly died because he thought he was so special that the rules of succession shouldn't apply to him. No those people both died because they were assassinated by severely evil people.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 04:44
|
|
|
Ror posted:Being executed after confessing to treason is not assassination, or even murder at all. Them's the breaks. Sure, just saying, being coerced into a false confession via threats of murder against your family by a conspiracy of murderers & torturers and then having an obviously crazy and evil psychopath order your execution is why Ned lost his head. Not his honor or pride or something. Just trying to keep frame as where the blame goes. That weird vibe of blaming him for his own assassination/murder/whatever is pretty suspicious!
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 05:01
|
|
|
Dapper Dan posted:That's overly simplistic. It isn't entirely his fault, but to expect everyone to abide by his code of honor and do the right thing was ridiculous. Ned's own faults lead to his demise. He refused to compromise his own principles in order to get the things he needed to do, done. He was warned time and time again that what he was doing was reckless, even dangerous, but he refused to compromise his principles. And time and time again, it has been shown if you refuse to change your emotions or principles, there are plenty of people who will and you will lose. The harsh reality is that amoral murderers gonna git you. Got it. The things he was doing were reckless because amoral murderers with the power to murder him and get away with it were going to git him. But where does this tie back into his being murdered being his fault, any more than every choice / event that happened prior to his death "leading up to his death" in the trivial sense? Vehementi fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jun 3, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 05:31
|
|
|
ironlung posted:He either dies or Jamie saves him somehow, I really can't see any other outcome. He has no other friends left in King's Landing. On the other hand, will Tywin really extinguish his line by killing Tyrion and pissing off Jamie? Maybe the deal with Jamie leaving the Kingsguard in exchange for mercy could still be on but that doesn't seem likely after Tywin publicly announced Tyrion's execution. Something something King's pardon something mercy something. Or just random poo poo will happen and disrupt everything!
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 06:07
|
|
|
quote:One problem as a book reader is that you develop a very personal attachment to the story as it is told and to your interpretation of that story. In a film/tv adaption, the slightest digression from its source, from the the choice of actor to the minute technical details involved in transforming words on paper into flesh and blood individuals, is like stomping all over the connection a reader has already established with the story. Kind of like killing off popular characters in super contrived situations? I don't think they really care about that exactly.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 16:23
|
|
|
Steve2911 posted:What super contrived situations? :/ "Ok ok check it out, so Frey wants to kill this guy, so he's going to invite them to his place under other pretences yeah? But wait hold on, he's not going to kill anyone at first in the easy ambush circumstances, he'll instead break bread to ensure that everybody in the land hates him subsequently: they're going to have a super long wedding first to give the Starks ample opportunity to uncover the plot, but all the guards, see, are going to perfectly keep the secret and not hint anything, but still be able to act with perfect synchroneity and knowledge of everything, and also all the Stark guards are going to be away and in position to ambush all of them at once, and we're going to play the lannister song first to warn everyone poetically, and and and ..." + getting the writer for Scream to write the "mountain comes back from choking on his own blood" scene (you asked) Just saying, GRRM's writing gimmick is to quote:stomping all over the connection a reader has already established with the story. Vehementi fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Jun 3, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 16:30
|
|
|
BubbleGoose posted:The Red Wedding was based on a historical event. If you want to complain about it being contrived, remember art was just imitating life. Also, I was talking about establishing a connection with a story, not with the characters. As much as you may hate it, the death of the characters, gimmick or not, is the story. Like it or not, to a lot (most?) people, the characters drive or are the story. quote:I think it was pretty obvious. A wedding, guest right, you think you're cool with this guy, of course you're going to let your guys drink. And of course drinking is going to lower your defenses. This wasn't contrived, it was a trap, and an extremely effective one, which is why guest right was so highly regarded in the first place. It's easier to understand when you recognize that GRRM's gimmick is to make it seem like one thing is happening and then suddenly destroy that. And in most of the cases (Joffrey suddenly deciding to execute Ned, grand conspiracy theory red wedding, near dead guy springs back to life to murder, etc.) the way it is executed is just absurd. Just like there were 100 ways they could have done Oberyn dying without it being a laugh out loud "haha they pulled the TV trope of the completely incapacitated guy getting the best of the 'winnner'" situation, Frey could have done a wedding ambush in 100 other ways that weren't "Okay, we're going to have this huge conspiracy where our 500 soldiers know to strike at exactly the same time and we're going to hope nobody has a qualm with this and tips anyone off and and and ..." Why bother with a giant wedding - did they need the drunk advantage to kill Robb's 10 dudes in the keep throne room? For a guy who apparently doesn't care at all that he just ruined his house name for all time, you think he would just sacrifice 5 extra soldiers to kill Robb right off the bat without all the insane risks of a gigantic wedding conspiracy plot. For me, the red wedding was surprising because the situation was so ludicrously contrived, not because they killed Robb. When I zoom out and look at the overall situation (you were expecting Robb to avenge Ned and now hope is crushed), it's great. Just the execution was laughable here.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 17:09
|
|
|
quote:Uh, the plotters also had to kill the thousands of Stark troops camped outside the keep with a numerically inferior force. The whole idea of the bridge is that you can't take it by force. Kill dudes in throne room, close the door, proceed to previous situation of "the army can't take the bridge" but now with "the army doesn't have a leader". Shath Hole posted:I don't even know how to respond to this other than feel free to stop watching the show if it offends your superior television drama producing abilities. I'll feel free to discuss it here - if critiquing baby's first fantasy novel hurts your sensibilities maybe you can leave?
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 17:18
|
|
|
Doltos posted:That 'gimmick' is called a plot twist and is in pretty much every single interesting story out there. The execution in the show is absurd because much of what is implied or guessed at comes across better in literary form. He lured his enemies into a super unbelievable and unnecessary conspiracy, not merely "a trap". Are you saying that in the book there were 100+ Stark soldiers in the throne room that they couldn't show? And that Frey actually sent out people to attack the Stark bannermen camps in open field in hopes that they were all drunk and would fall over in a massacre? That seems like an even more unnecessary plan than I originally understood. From what I remember they ambushed the various Stark soldiers inside the keep, and without a leader the bannermen disbanded afterward (they made a point of saying this in the show). The real risk is as you said - chance of Robb escaping - but that seems pretty negligible compared to "one of my hundreds of random soldiers not keeping the huge conspiracy a secret and then I lose everything". I fully get the context of the Oberyn situation and everything that happened. Like a half a dozen people have pointed out in this thread, they could have "had his hubris kill him" without it being "lol prankt, the guy with a hole in his chest choking on his blood got up".
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 17:59
|
|
|
People in that land respect a ruse wedding where a house is massacred? They made a huge loving deal about how Frey's house's name is ruined forever for breaking the guest rule. It seems super far fetched anyone would be convinced that this wedding was legitimate, not under duress, or not invalidated for a dozen reasons like "they killed all the guests", much less care about any claim House Frey makes from now until the end of time.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 3, 2014 18:09
|
|
|
Was The Mountain re-knighted at some point after Ned stripped him of all titles etc. by law? (Rewatching first season)
|
|
#
¿
Jun 4, 2014 04:55
|
|
|
Honore_De_Balzac posted:Short answer no. Is that something we've seen in the show? I don't recall anyone knowing. Maybe someone could have pieced some things together via inference?
|
|
#
¿
Jun 5, 2014 04:22
|
|
|
Kasonic posted:The Ironborn are pretty pragmatic. While I'll admit the edit was poorly done and the whole fight was a bit confusing, I think it was pretty clear to her that any Theon in there was dead. If Balon was ready to chuck him into the ocean for wearing a medallion, how do you think he'd respond to a filthy eunuch begging to return to his beloved Ramsay? She had just finished saying "If they can gently caress with our prince with impunity then being ironborn means nothing" Encounter Theon. Decide he's either been tortured / brainwashed / killed, all things that are embarrassing to have done to your prince. Rescue or not, there needs to be punishment. She should (as in what makes sense) have tried to kill Ramsay. Anything else is baffling.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 5, 2014 21:06
|
|
|
The other crazy cut like that was in an earlier season when Dany's brodawgs go and try to infiltrate that city. They kill a guard, and then OMG 6 guards come and they just BARELY kill those 6 guards, luckily dodging attacks & saving each other's asses & relying on enemies missing & tripping over poo poo randomly. Then 50 guards enter the room. Cut to ... Dany owns the city.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 5, 2014 21:16
|
|
|
Brick Card posted:They used a secret passage that was possibly warded against evil. Oh poo poo they should probably get on that for the other ones.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2014 04:29
|
|
|
CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:Why doesn't Mance go to the coast and ferry his people across like 10 meters. The wall isn't that wide Is real plan is just that he wants someone to make him a gigantic fire and this is the only way he could convince the wildlings to do that.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 23, 2024 16:15 |
|
|
thathonkey posted:Hate to break it to y'all but my donation created the Oberyn character and GRRM even let me pick his exact grisly death for an extra 5k.  I think GRRM's giving more than just broad strokes to the screen writers. Else the show and books would diverge way too heavily down the line. Vehementi fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jun 6, 2014 |
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2014 21:14
|
|