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Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!



I can't help but think that television ads would completely fail for books. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it working.

It's like book trailers: why would you market written word to the sort of audience that goes to Youtube to watch things? "Hey, I wrote a book. Let me advertise it to the vanishingly-small segment of customers who like to read but who prefer to find out about their books through movie format and search for ads on youtube."


I'm gonna advertise my next romance on the jumbotron at the superbowl during the halftime show, then go for a NASCAR sponsorship and paint my book cover on a car for an extra 500 miles of exposure.

Sundae fucked around with this message at Jul 19, 2014 around 15:16

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ArchangeI
Jul 15, 2010


Sundae posted:

I'm gonna advertise my next romance on the jumbotron at the superbowl during the halftime show, then go for a NASCAR sponsorship and paint my book cover on a car for an extra 500 miles of exposure.

Make it a gay romance and reap the benefits of moral outrage from the far right. 20 minutes on FOX = 20 minutes of free advertising.

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the nuggets in front of me

Maybe the UK is just a completely different advertising ecosphere then. The missus and I have seen book ads on a few 5oD programs - mostly thrillers. There again, that's more online advertising, and was probably demographically targeted at us as readers. And there's more of an infrastructure around the train system to enable people to buy a book they see advertised there, maybe also more of a culture of commuting long enough journeys to make a book a good investment.

One of the agents we had a seminar with said they went through a phase of advertising man books like Andy McNab (remember, reading's not gay if it's about soldiers!) on TV but the results were so sparse there wasn't really a lot they could do with it apart from niche demographic things apart from advertising Miss Marple / Poirot collections during ITV repeats of the relevant show. Hence why I said they were just coming to terms with it.

Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at Jul 19, 2014 around 17:23

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


For anyone curious, the pay-what-you-want bundle I did sold 23 copies and made 156$.
So yeah. I'm gonna keep going though, hoping it will pick up steam.

Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!



Going back to Kindle Unlimited talk for a second: It appears that borrows do indeed count for sales rank. Algorithm effects are still unknown at this point, of course, but they're definitely raising my sales ranks.

Interestingly enough, I am also seeing no decline in individual unit sales, just extra borrows.

Icon-Cat
Aug 18, 2005

Meow!

ravenkult posted:

If your protagonist isn't an orangutang, I'd change that first and foremost.

This is good advice for all authors.



Sundae posted:

I can't help but think that television ads would completely fail for books. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it working.

Things like television ads and expensive billboards for books... the publishing industry does them, but only for big famous authors with established brands (ugh, that word). The ad isn't there to plug a new author or explain something that needs explaining. It's there to say, 'Hey, reader who already likes James Patterson / Dan Brown and would buy another book from them: another one exists, here's the title!' It's more effective as an announcement than as a way to convey new information.

Icon-Cat fucked around with this message at Jul 19, 2014 around 18:35

Grizzled Patriarch
Mar 27, 2014

These dentures won't stop me from tearing out jugulars in Thunderdome.




So this talk about going from self-pubbed to an actual agent has me curious.

I'm still a long ways away from having a finished product ready to shop around, but I'm trying to learn as much as possible in the mean time. Right now I'm focusing on short fiction, so it sounds like the best course of action in an ideal world is:

Send the stories out and try to get them published in magazines and such. Then, after the first printing rights expire, I am free to self-pub the collection, hopefully using the publications to add some credibility / free advertising.

I'm not entirely sure how agents handle short story collections, though. Most of the collections I read have a page explaining where each story was first published, so I assume that's kind of common. However, I'd imagine going from magazines to self-pub to an agent is basically unheard of, correct?

Basically, if my end goal is a collection of shorts, what is the best course of action to take to ensure that I at least give myself the best chance at making it successful?

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


Nobody's gonna take you on, or even publish, with a short story collection. They sell like crap too.

EngineerSean
Feb 9, 2004

by zen death robot


Just rented out a plane to drag one of those banners around to advertise my new sex book, I'll let you how many sales I got from it.

Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!



Grizzled Patriarch posted:

Basically, if my end goal is a collection of shorts, what is the best course of action to take to ensure that I at least give myself the best chance at making it successful?

Finish it, leave it unpublished, write something else that makes you famous, then publish it. Problem solved!

Honestly though, short story collections sell like crap and almost nobody publishes them unless you're already famous. Sorry.

Grizzled Patriarch
Mar 27, 2014

These dentures won't stop me from tearing out jugulars in Thunderdome.




ravenkult posted:

Nobody's gonna take you on, or even publish, with a short story collection. They sell like crap too.

Is that true for self-pubbing too? I mean obviously some people manage to get published, short story collections are mostly what I enjoy reading and often they are by relatively unknown or even first-time authors. I don't have any starry-eyed expectations of getting rich from short stories or anything, but there are a decent number of authors who choose not to write novel-length fiction.

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


Grizzled Patriarch posted:

Is that true for self-pubbing too? I mean obviously some people manage to get published, short story collections are mostly what I enjoy reading and often they are by relatively unknown or even first-time authors. I don't have any starry-eyed expectations of getting rich from short stories or anything, but there are a decent number of authors who choose not to write novel-length fiction.

They don't sell well at all. Unless you're well known for your short fiction (short story sales in top magazines) or have a bunch of novels out, you won't move copies.

Grizzled Patriarch
Mar 27, 2014

These dentures won't stop me from tearing out jugulars in Thunderdome.




ravenkult posted:

They don't sell well at all. Unless you're well known for your short fiction (short story sales in top magazines) or have a bunch of novels out, you won't move copies.

Good to know! Guess that gives me some incentive to finally pound out a novel. I honestly much prefer reading and writing short fiction, but my dream is to eventually turn writing into a career so if that's what it takes, so be it. I need the practice anyway!

PoshAlligator
Jan 9, 2012

When SEO just isn't enough.


ravenkult posted:

Nobody's gonna take you on, or even publish, with a short story collection. They sell like crap too.

Well, if you somehow got famous as a short story writer in a bunch of high profile magazines if day someone might want to pick you up. But it's probably more likely an agent or publisher will ask you if you've thought of writing a novel (I have only second hand accounts of this though I'm afraid).

e: though this chat is probably better suited to the Fiction Writing thread at this point, but it is important to remember self-publishing isn't usually either/or (directed at nobody)

ee: oh right, beaten anyway

PoshAlligator fucked around with this message at Jul 19, 2014 around 21:30

psychopomp
Jan 27, 2011


If you want to write short fiction just submit the stories to professional markets.

Trustworthy
Dec 28, 2004

with catte-like thread
upon our prey we steal


ravenkult posted:

Back me up here, the ape on the cover is terrible. Just because it's ''different'' doesn't mean it's good.

For what it's worth, the ape caught my eye and interest in a good way, and answered my first instantaneous question about the book's title: "Is this going to be about a real or metaphorical circus?"

edit: Re: the TV ad discussion, the only video-based book ads I can recall seeing in recent years are James Patterson YouTube ads so dumb and low-quality that they made me laugh out loud. But I guess he's the multimillionaire and I'm not, so what do I know.

Trustworthy fucked around with this message at Jul 21, 2014 around 14:16

magnificent7
Sep 22, 2005

THUNDERDOME LOSER


Oh yeah? This got me to buy the book within the hour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5swoHS21tBw

And got me interested in writing, (after I read it).

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


magnificent7 posted:

Oh yeah? This got me to buy the book within the hour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5swoHS21tBw

And got me interested in writing, (after I read it).

It's a cost vs efficiency thing. Most forms of advertising have a terrible efficiency ratio so especially in publishing it's not a good idea unless you're a multimillion dollar company.

I did a trailer for the first book my press published, I think it has 300 views on youtube. Waste of time.

magnificent7
Sep 22, 2005

THUNDERDOME LOSER


ravenkult posted:

It's a cost vs efficiency thing. Most forms of advertising have a terrible efficiency ratio so especially in publishing it's not a good idea unless you're a multimillion dollar company.

I did a trailer for the first book my press published, I think it has 300 views on youtube. Waste of time.
Good point. I remember I got to that video through cracked.com - the author is one of the editors there, so, he had some advantages there I'm sure.

EngineerSean
Feb 9, 2004

by zen death robot


magnificent7 posted:

Good point. I remember I got to that video through cracked.com - the author is one of the editors there, so, he had some advantages there I'm sure.

Leveraging your existing platforms is Publishing 101. If you have a following by whatever other means, you can get things done.

Anais Nun
Apr 21, 2010


PoshAlligator posted:

I'm sorry to hear that, but I hope you're doing just fine with the self-publishing stuff. I'm sure you could find someone else if you're really into the idea though. Agents looking to pick up self-published work is definitely still a thing, because then 98% of all the work is done for them already. Not too sure what that can offer the self-published person though. I guess if the author is struggling to get the sales they want?

Yeah - no worries. Thanks again for thinking of me.

Jalumibnkrayal
Apr 16, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

BKnights on Fiverr has a mini Bookbub gig. He sends your book link out to 4800 people for $5. The first time I used him it was for a full price short romance story and it got no sales, so he refunded me. Since then I published another work, got some reviews on it, tweaked the blurb and decided to try Bknights again. It's not primetime in the US yet and it's already my best sales day. Mind you, these are tiny numbers, but to me it's a big deal. Thanks for being awesome, thread!

Bobby Deluxe
May 9, 2004

you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the nuggets in front of me

Interesting. 'Buy it now' button to appear on Facebook:

http://goodereader.com/blog/e-book-...oks-on-facebook

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


Too bad Facebook sucks and it won't let you reach your audience.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


gently caress facebook, they'll probably make you pay for the buttons eventually

Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!



I'd rather just use an affiliate link, honestly, but I'll definitely view the terms of the program and consider it when it comes out.

Between the visibility algorithm changes, possible cut of revenue going to Facebook (no idea), and that it requires the reader enter their payment information into Facebook when they already have it likely saved on Amazon, I'd rather just have them click a link, then click Buy It Now, and give me an extra 6% for the affiliate click in the process.

star eater
Jan 1, 2006



Fallen Rib

Save yourself the trouble and just make a new profile for your pen name. Pages suck really bad.

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


I'm looking for books for the next 2 Arcane Bundles (low sales withstanding). Let me know if you want in. I think the next one is going to be Lovecraftian/Cosmic Horror/Weird Fiction.

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


The HWA (Horror Writers Association) has changed the rules to allow selfpub authors to join. The tears are so delicious I might never drink anything else ever again.

http://www.nicholaskaufmann.com/201...ive-membership/ as an example of said tears. Party game: Change ''self published authors'' to ''illegals'' as you read.

And this is my response:

''...it makes me laugh that people think this is a problem. It's not that the HWA is terrible or anything, but it's not like becoming a HWA member is especially hard (I don't qualify, but I only need one more pro sale to do so). You're not exactly keeping the riff-raff out by keeping selfpub authors from joining.

All you need to join the HWA right now is some story sales at a pro rate or a novel with a 2000$ advance. So really, all you need is a buddy with a magazine that is willing to say ''I totally paid this guy 800$ for 3 stories.'' IF you wanted to game the system. Same goes for a novel. You could claim whatever you wanted, it's not like the IRS is gonna bust down your door and check it out.
I'm not sure why it's posited that selfpub authors can buy their way in so easily, but traditionally published authors can't. It's 100% the exact same thing.

So now the problem is that someone might self publish and ''cheat'' his way into a HWA membership by lying about his sales or over-promoting? Bah, humbug.

The last couple of paragraphs find me in complete disagreement. I know self published authors who are complete workhorses and very knowledgeable about the industry (they have to be, if they want to make it).''

EngineerSean
Feb 9, 2004

by zen death robot


On the other hand, there has been very little change in quality of self-published books. Anyone can poo poo out a book with incomprehensible prose and tortured plots, upload it to Amazon and B&N, and call themselves a published author. And in the current paradigm, they would not be wrong to call themselves that. This is something of a slap in the face to those of us who actually put effort into our craft, those of us who work hard and pay our dues in the trenches of rejection and the classrooms of trial-and-error to earn the title of published author.

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


EngineerSean posted:

On the other hand, there has been very little change in quality of self-published books. Anyone can poo poo out a book with incomprehensible prose and tortured plots, upload it to Amazon and B&N, and call themselves a published author. And in the current paradigm, they would not be wrong to call themselves that. This is something of a slap in the face to those of us who actually put effort into our craft, those of us who work hard and pay our dues in the trenches of rejection and the classrooms of trial-and-error to earn the title of published author.

If you're familiar with the HWA at all, you know that's bullshit. You could publish with the smallest of small press and bullshit your way into the HWA with a snap of the fingers.

If you don't automatically think that selfpub authors will scam the HWA to get in, the 2000$ in earnings threshold should be good enough to keep the terrible authors out.

EngineerSean
Feb 9, 2004

by zen death robot


Oh sorry, I was quoting from the self-righteous blog. It's probably the biggest bullshit I've ever heard.

ravenkult
Feb 3, 2011


I have been bamboozled!

magnificent7
Sep 22, 2005

THUNDERDOME LOSER


I saw that post.

In the nineties and early 00s, radio took a poo poo, thanks to the mp3, youtube, pandora, and napster of course. Their argument was that it takes a well-oiled machine to curate the music for the masses; it was unimaginable that a musician could cut a record at home, publish and promote it themselves without the help of corporate music channel, and (god forbid) even give away the music. It just didn't make sense.

Hell - Billboard Records took forever to include digital sales in it's chart calculations.

Any system can be gamed. My question though is, what will my $2,000 GET me? What do I get for being an active member of the HWA? If I get a gold throne and priority seating at movie theatres? gently caress it I'm in.

Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!



EngineerSean posted:

On the other hand, there has been very little change in quality of self-published books. Anyone can poo poo out a book with incomprehensible prose and tortured plots, upload it to Amazon and B&N, and call themselves a published author. And in the current paradigm, they would not be wrong to call themselves that. This is something of a slap in the face to those of us who actually put effort into our craft, those of us who work hard and pay our dues in the trenches of rejection and the classrooms of trial-and-error to earn the title of published author.



I'm gonna name my next angsty emo romance The Trenches of Rejection.

(Or not, because I like to make money.)

EngineerSean
Feb 9, 2004

by zen death robot


I put no effort into my craft which is why it's such a surprise to be a millionaire, take that trad published horror author.

moana
Jun 18, 2005

one of the more intellectual satire communities on the web


You loving alpha males just loving taking my future girlfriend on a date instead of paying your dues with rejection the way I have~

EngineerSean
Feb 9, 2004

by zen death robot


moana posted:

You loving alpha males just loving taking my future girlfriend on a date instead of paying your dues with rejection the way I have~

Haha is that it? Have we found the "nice guy" of publishing?

painted bird
Oct 18, 2013

by Lowtax


So is this thread interested in web serial writers, too?

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Sundae
Dec 1, 2005

Wheeeeeee!



I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I know several of us have sold serials before, so sure, why not?

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