Self-Publishing Goons: Yep, people buy it!

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Creative Convention > Self-Publishing Goons: Yep, people buy it!

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Howdy, folks. This is my first time stepping into this subforum and I thought I'd introduce myself.

I'm a guy who became physically disabled a few years ago, taking away my ability to work any of the jobs I'm qualified to do. I've always pursued creative things and started writing about 1000 words daily, no matter what. I've written short things before, including stand up that I did decades ago along with other comedic stuff. But my reading passion has and always will be horror, as my father was an extremely small time published horror author in the 80's. I grew up with it and almost always have a horror novel on my nightstand.

I focused my daily writing practice and I recently wrote my first novel - a horror story set in the American south about a disabled guy and his parrot moving onto land in the country plagued with an ancient monster. I don't think it's particularly good and it I'm currently polishing it from a bloated as gently caress 220k word rough draft into a more manageable, official first draft.

I know my next step is taking a scalpel to this overweight manuscript, so I'm doing that. But past there, I'm getting a little overwhelmed. I've read the OP a couple of times, trying to become familiarized with the next steps. I'm not averse to throwing some money at the project, if it produces a better end result. I'm trying to focus on doing this right, rather than cheap or quick. In a perfect world, I could rejoin the workforce through writing. As I mentioned, when I'm not editing something, I write a minimum 1k words a day.

I'm mostly wanting to introduce myself before I start asking inane questions, but any thoughts are welcome. Thanks for listening.

(I'm not yet at the point where I'm sending out excerpts, but if I should get some together I can do that.)

# ¿ Jun 30, 2021 21:13

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 08:38

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Leng posted:

Welcome and congrats on finishing your first draft! That's absolutely huge and worthy of celebration.

Doing a self pass through edit is a perfect idea...BUT make sure you give yourself a bit of a break between finishing the novel and going back to edit, so you can see things with fresh eyes, otherwise you're just going to be too close to your work to get value out of the process. When you've put some distance between you and your novel, read through and look for big picture things first (what is the story about? do my characters have a clear and compelling arc? does every scene advance plot or character or both? do I have plotholes/continuity issues?), before working on scene level stuff (how do I make a boring but necessary scene more interesting?) then getting into the weeds (e.g. line level stuff, spelling, grammar, repetition in word choice).

When you're ready to post excerpts for critique and look for beta readers, you should post in the fiction crit thread.

In terms of familiarizing yourself with next steps, YouTube can be useful, though the quality of the "what next" videos are a bit mixed. There's a lot of videos focused on the craft of writing, there's a select few talking about the marketing side of things, and imo, most of the tutorial/"how to" videos suck because they kind of focus on step by step stuff without explaining the why behind what they're doing. I found the advice in this thread more specific and helpful, because of how many successful self-published authors there are giving advice in this thread so definitely take your time to slowly read through the thread in full.

Based on your post, I assume you're in this to make money. If so, you need to understand what you're getting yourself into. If you want a general primer on how the publishing industry works, I did a YouTube video here (I spent 10+ years in audit and a lot of my clients were traditional publishers): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrgRWJvhLjw

Thank you very, very much for this thoughtful response. I'm going to digest it a bit before I become Mr. Questions.

If I can make money - That would be grand. But I've also done enough of the arts throughout my life that I'm aware not everyone, "Makes It." I do have one valuable thing on my hands, which is time.

I spent my whole life wanting to write, especially growing up around my published father. But after college all my time got soaked up by working various difficult, time consuming jobs. I was in an industry that had me constantly working doubles, or doing five travel overnights a week, and I became a (thankfully many years sober) alcoholic. Now that I have the time, I figure I'd be a hypocrite to not at least give it a try. I just turned thirty-seven, so I drat well need to make something of my life between now and death. :derptiel:

I do have a major question that I'd love any opinions on -

What is an executable work count for a first timer?

I've read way too much Stephen King and Clive Barker my whole life to write concisely, so I'm aware I'm producing bloat. But I've read a lot of articles saying 40k-100k absolute max.

I know my 217k needs to get majorly chopped down. But I'm not sure how much to chop.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2021 08:10

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Zaepho posted:

Word count for a novel depends heavily on genre in my experience. Research your genre for specifics. We're publishing things from about 60k-120k across various SciFi, Fantasy, and Horror categories. Another thing to take into account especially self publishing is that the longer the book, the more just about everything will cost which makes it more difficult to see ROI out of a title. This especially applies to Audio books which is the largest growing segment of the publishing market at the moment.

Finally, realize that it can take quite some time/effort to build momentum and start turning a profit. General consensus from the majority of published authors I've had the opportunity to speak with directly and second hand through my wife (who does the actual writing and editing) is that you don't start making money on a series until the 3rd book in the series. Conversely, readers tend to peter out after book 6.

Those things being said. Write, write, write, and read a whole lot!

OH last item for real this time... Please don't publish or submit something to agents/publishers that hasn't been read critically by somebody who doesn't love you.

Thanks for the input!

I certainly don't think I'm going to write Carrie on my first try. I'm so critical of what I write that it keeps me up at night. When I try to read for pleasure, I keep letting my mind wander off into how much better the book in my hands is than the arduous, bloated mess I created. I'm thirty-seven and done enough creative stuff to not be high on my own supply, knowing a first novel is probably much more a mess than good.

The hard thing to really grasp is the "Choose your Adventure" publishing game. My father, last publishing in 1989, very much thinks -

- You write
- You submit to everywhere, expecting a poo poo ton of rejection letters
- You get published or offered a contract

I'd kill for such a streamlined process.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2021 20:03

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Fuschia tude posted:

Neither did King! Despite being his first published, that was his fourth novel.

Yes, your earliest writings are bound to be bad and it's likely to remain bad for a while. Everyone's are, starting out. That's the learning process. But everything you write, especially everything you finish, especially every big thing, will be better. In some way or another. Assuming you have anything resembling a mammal brain, that's guaranteed.

One thing you might want to do to give yourself distance from your new finished manuscript is... write. Make something totally different, with no relation to the last one. (It doesn't have to be another novel; it probably shouldn't, even, unless you're a really fast writer.) Distract and occupy that part of your brain with a new and different creative task, and see it to completion. Or several, if they're short. Then, after you've set your manuscript aside for a month or two, you can come back to it with fresh eyes, now that you've completely forgotten some details, and others have gone hazy, and you don't have every page of it memorized.

Then you can decide whether you need to cut and trim it down like you said, or if it would be more efficient to just rewrite the whole thing from scratch, now that you already know the whole plot and what it's all about and what the purpose of each chapter and scene is and where it's headed in the end. Right now, you're too close to it to even make that determination.

I'm starting to really think more and more about walking away for now and starting something else. I think this is really good advice.

The one thing I went into this novel with was a pretty solid outline. I had a clear idea of the progression of everything, chapter after chapter. But I allowed myself to simply write freely in terms of amount, which turned this manuscript into a porker.

I'm a little peeved at myself for not having a stronger arc for the main character. Sometimes in horror it's easy to get wrapped up in the character arc of, "Not Dying."

freebooter posted:

Just a note on "making it" - everybody focuses on the Hugh-Howey-esque life-changing success stories, but don't underestimate the benefit of even a low-key side gig. I've been doing this just over four years now and my writing income has wildly fluctuated in that time, generally smoothing out at maybe $500-$1000 a month, post-overheads but pre-tax.

That's way less than some of the people who (used to?) post in this thread, and 10k a year obviously does not mean I'm about to quit my day job. But it's a pretty significant amount of mostly-passive income that changes my spending habits, my savings, and my ability to plan long-term about buying an apartment or whatever. And if I check the Amazon ranking of my bestselling book at the moment, it's something like 70,000, so I'm a nobody. But you don't need to "make it" for self-pubbing to be a really good decision. The only thing I regret about it is not starting sooner.

I'm not going too deep into this, but it will explain my motivations for going a traditional route to publication. I've typed this out and deleted it a few times because I don't want the conversation to become about my specific set of circumstances. But this will explain my motivations, if making money becomes a factor.

I became disabled in my mid-thirties, getting diagnosed with motor neuron disease and loosing significant function in my lower legs. Getting the government to recognize this took twenty-eight months and a law firm. The reason for all this effort is to cover my very, very expensive healthcare.

tldr - American healthcare is bad.

Making small amounts of money will gently caress this all up, which is why I can afford taking a circuitous route to being published if it could potentially mean earning more. If I started making a legit salary, I can afford some Obamacare coverage. But if I start making 10k a year, I'll lose my government coverage and not be able to afford Obamacare.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2021 20:03

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

I�m asking this after hearing the OP is pretty old.

What are all the relevant terms being used? KDP? KENP?

# ¿ Jul 5, 2021 00:21

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Leng posted:

The American healthcare system indeed sucks majorly.

My YouTube video that I posted explains in more detail, with diagrams, but this is the essence: I have some bad news for you. Unless you're planning on ghostwriting, you are not going to make a salary from this endeavour. Authors make royalties (which is a form of profit sharing) and publishers pay the bills with profits.

All publishing�including traditional publishing�is akin to gambling.

If you go traditional publishing and are lucky enough to get signed, you will receive an advance on future royalties (maybe, I hear that the amount of advances being given are no longer as generous as they used to be, and some places may not offer advances at all). This is not free money; it's a payday loan on the royalties you earn on the future sales of your book post publication. You do not get more money once your book is published unless the publisher "recoups" your advance, from which point on they will start paying you your cut of royalties (rates vary according to contract, region, format, etc but say, 10-15% of RRP or cover price). Royalties are paid ONLY when you have sales of your books and you won't see the money until at least 6-9 months after the sale.

If you self-publish, you are the author AS WELL AS the publisher, so you get to keep the publisher's cut of the profits in addition to your author royalties. It is entirely a numbers + marketing game (okay, some luck as well). If you write to market, deliver a quality product, release frequently and consistently, and crunch your title P&L numbers the right way, you will make money.

In either case, publishing a book is making a bet that enough people will buy your book to at least break even on the costs of publishing it, with the hope of making a profit.

In traditional publishing, the publisher takes on the risk of the bet not paying off, hence why your author royalty rates are low.

In self-publishing, you are the one taking on the risk, so you get all of the upsides (if you hit the jackpot) as well as all of the downsides (i.e. lose what you bet if you don't sell enough copies).

Finally, as the kicker: most authors who are traditionally published do not earn out their advances. Traditional publishers rely on a few megabucks authors to pay for the advances for everybody else. So chances are, unless you are the next Stephen King, you are probably not going to get any money from a traditional publisher beyond your advance.

KDP = Amazon's Kindle Direct Publishing platform

KENP = Kindle Edition Normalized Pages (basically how many page reads you got if you put your book in the Kindle Unlimited program)

You absolutely rock, thank you for effort posting on the topic. This is worth hours of searching around the internet, trying to pick through endless Mommy Blogs about, "WRITE A BOOK IN A MONTH!"

# ¿ Jul 5, 2021 19:29

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

freebooter posted:

OK, yeah - in your situation where a certain threshhold of income could gently caress up your disability benefit, then having the extra pocket money would indeed not be worth it. I love having my extra 10ish grand a year, but if I were suddenly told I had to rely on it that would make me panic.

On the other hand, as Leng points out, trad publishing can be equally unreliable and unpredictable.

I guess one thing I would say is that self publishing gives you a hell of a lot more control over your sales and marketing. If I were in a situation where I didn't want to hit 10K (not sure if you used this figure because it was my example or because that also happens to be your disability threshold), and I realised there were two months left in the financial year and I'd made 8k or 9k, I could make all my books free overnight. Income vanishes, but at least people are still reading and reviewing and recommending, which will be good when you turn the tap back on next financial year. Scheduled promotions and stuff are the only thing that might give you a major sudden spike in sales, but again, you have control over those and they aren't going to be major spikes when you're just starting out.

Thanks for the input, yours and Leng's has been really illuminating and helps show me how I need to think about moving forward in this venture. I'm sure I'm going to have some more silly questions pop up, but it's great to have a goon resource to keep me from trying to poke through a hodgepodge of "SO YOU WANT TO WRITE THE NEXT BEST SELLER IN THIRTY DAYS?!?!" blogs and advertisements.

I think I'm going to go with some recommendations here and step away from turning my rough draft into a first draft for a little bit and stretch my legs on other story ideas. I'm lucky, in that I have the entire arc of stories in my head beforehand. If I can keep myself from blabbering, I think I've got some stuff that could be a more feasible first foray into having a book with my name on it.

(On my peculiar circumstances - Without derailing the thread, I'll just say it's at the point where I need to get a healthcare lawyer again. I receive very expensive, monthly treatments covered by my Medicare that keep me from dying. Literally. My condition is terminal, but the treatment managed to stop its progression. While I feel like there are part time jobs, or part time professions, I could certainly perform, it could literally lose my coverage that pays for the ungodly expensive monthly infusions. I feel like my life is held hostage by American healthcare.)

# ¿ Jul 6, 2021 08:18

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Ccs posted:

You could also start writing stories and trying to grow a following on Royal Road, and not get involved in any of the monetary aspects of publishing. I published through Amazon but to be honest the money I make is almost not worth having to deal with the tax forms at the end of the year, since I have to prepare taxes in 2 countries and having foreign source income increases the chance of audits which is a headache I don't like to think about.

One thing I've decided is worth focusing on in the medium term (the next year or two) is filling up my catalogue with either a couple novels of a mess of short stories before publishing anything. If the monetary proposition of publishing looking like something I could manage, probably using loving lawyers to make sure I don't inadvertently kill myself, it would be a lot less intimidating knowing I had a couple torpedoes in the tube, ready to launch.

If this question is best asked in another thread, please point me there -

What are the best short story avenues for publishing/contests, for the purpose of building a writing CV/resume?

# ¿ Jul 7, 2021 20:11

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

divabot posted:

yep - and accumulating a fan base who will then buy your longer works. Thinking of the authors who've started in fanfic and grown a base there who already like their stuff.

Are there any examples I could read about? I'd be really interested in seeing how they managed that, especially in regards to the length of their works.

Small Question - When we talk about targeting a market, what precisely is meant? Is the market defined broadly as "horror" or are we talking "Horror that involves cats in space fighting miniature aliens?"

freebooter posted:

It's been a long time since I published short fiction, but if you want to go down the road of the short fiction version of trad pub (magazines and journals), then Duotrope is (or at least was, circa 2015) an absolutely invaluable resource:

https://duotrope.com/

Helps you keep track of what you've submitted and where, how long you've been waiting to hear back, whether journals permit simultaneous submissions etc. Also IIRC it had a really good filterable search engine so you could be like, OK, show me a fit for my [HORROR] story of [LESS THAN 5,000 WORDS] which [PAYS] and [ACCEPTS SIM-SUBS] from [OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES] etc.

Going down this road is purely for credentials/CV/experience though, you'll barely ever make a dime off it. I think the only piece of fiction I ever published that was financially worth the time was a story I had in Daily Science Fiction, because they were paying like 5c a word and I thought up a gimmick for a piece of flash fiction, wrote it and submitted it in the space of a couple hours. That's generally why I started putting all my energy into publishing longer fiction on Amazon, though I certainly don't regret it and I imagine having a small portfolio of published work would serve me in good stead if I ever try to trad pub long fiction.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2021 22:27

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Leng posted:

Cassandra Clare. She's traditionally published and massive in the YA urban fantasy niche. She started out as a Harry Potter fanfic writer and had a bunch of viral internet things, including the Very Secret Diaries for the LOTR movies when they first came out, before her first novel came out (and I would guess that a lot of her initial fan base came from people who had already read and enjoyed her fanfics). Extremely divisive due to a crapload of controversies, but whatever you wanna say about her, she's a genius at writing to market and also very commercially successful.

There are broad, umbrella market categories, then specific sub-genres. "Horror" is a genre at large, "YA" is another genre. Some of these can intersect, e.g. "YA horror". Within genres, you can have sub-genres/niches. "Dark fantasy" vs "occult" for example would qualify. A really good way to figure out what niches there are is to look at the Amazon categories. Amazon changes these over time to respond to changes in reader tastes. "LitRPG" and "progression fantasy" for example, weren't things a few years back but now it's a big portion of SFF self-publishing.

Excellent! Thanks for the info.

Now I'm going to be trying to google where the line is for YA Horror. The horror I write has never been particularly gory, and I've always wanted to write a horror-lite story about a restaurant in the sticks getting attacked by a roving band of Sasquatch creatures. :derptiel:

# ¿ Jul 9, 2021 08:31

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Sally Forth posted:

I have two friends who made the jump - one got her start by writing very popular (novel, novella, and short story-length) fics in big fandoms and built up enough of a following that, when she published an original novella to AO3, an agent read it, offered her rep, and then sold it for her. Since then she's published a sequel novella and her first novel's just been announced.

Second friend wasn't as well-known in fandom but when she started posting her own original novel to AO3, our first friend publicised it for her (this happened before first friend's professional career had taken off) and a similar thing happened - it was wildly popular, at least one big-name author started talking about it, and she got an agent who later sold it for her. (Not to undersell her work - it's a great story in its own right, but it might not have exploded as it did without the initial visibility).

This is all vanishingly unlikely though, and if you're not interested in fandom for its own sake, I don't think it will be a useful avenue to go down. First friend built up her audience through a decade of genuine engagement (and of course luck played a role - writing the right story to hook the right fandom at the right time).

I'm sorry, but what does AO3 mean? I'm old and easily confused.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2021 19:31

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Hearing about the audio book stuff is pretty dang cool, too.

I've always thought about reading books on Youtube. Not sure if that is A Thing and my voice is probably too nasal, but it might be fun. Hearing about audiobook woes would be illuminating.

# ¿ Jul 20, 2021 08:40

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

I'm curious as to why people would hate self published stuff?

I know it can often mean complete word salad trash, especially pre-internet decades ago. But in today's age, where you can read a page and gauge the competence, why would it receive a negative reaction?

Here is a bad example I've personally encountered - I remember working with a guy in a warehouse who started cranking out self published zombie novels. This was a decade ago, so he did much better than the work warranted. It was really, really bad writing and the dude walked around all :smug:

saying, "You know, I AM a published author, so..." and then prattle on with the stupidest poo poo you'd ever heard.

But on the other hand, there is a whole lot of great self published stuff. Especially today, where excellent authors can cut through the Literature Scene and start making copies?

Does everyone just assume self published equals being That Guy who I worked with ages ago, while magically not naming and of the good ones?

# ¿ Jul 26, 2021 09:17

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Howdy everybody, thought I'd check back in after you were all so gracious with your recommendations and time during my first novel.

Well, I've now finished two and I'm close to the halfway point on number three. I haven't even begun to consider publishing yet, because I've got a major stumbling block I do not fully know how to tackle -

loving editting.

Right now, here is what I have -

Novel #1 - Southern horror - A big ponderous mess that would need heavy work to even get into a copy I'd hand an editor. I like this story, but it's on the back burner indefinitely. Word Count - 250k for Christ's sake
Novel #2 - Survival horror in a restaurant - Way closer to something I'd give an editor, but has entire sections I'm planning to cut because half the characters don't advance the story. I can easily shave 50k words from it. Word Count - 150k
Novel #3 in progress - Survival horror poking fun at the zombie genre. This has been easy to write so far and I consider it at about the halfway point. 40k words written, aiming to land less than 100k

When it comes to editing, I know I need a second set of eyes. But I also think I need to do a pass through myself, to clean it up at the very least.

Due to being a disabled person trying to break back into earning money, I'm in zero hurry to publish. When I do it, I want to do it right. Even if that requires some money on the front end.

So how do all you new authors with books to print go about the editing process? My father was published in the 80's, and believes everything is sending off manuscripts to try and get a deal. Which I know is long gone. But there has to be some in between of doing everything yourself and expecting Doubleday to pick up your first novel.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2022 16:28

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

My God, you all are the absolute best. This has given me such a concise, clear guide to follow in my next steps.

I was 100% going to be doing a "Rough to First Draft" edit before another soul lays eyes on anything I've written. It's just a little daunting, as you've mentioned. I tend to see nothing but problems in everything I write, and can get hung up on trying to fix a wonky sentence for five minutes rather than punching through a couple pages. Not to mention the little foibles I know plague my writing, like accidentally repeating the same word a couple times in the same paragraph.

I'm going to spend some time digesting these awesome suggestions, then possible hit y'all with some more questions. (And/Or hop into another thread.)

This has been an interesting experience for me, as I never thought I'd be pursuing writing as an eventual possible career path due to physical disability.

But I have written every single day, no matter what, for over 600 days in a row. I average 1000-1500 words a day, with some days being less if I'm doing something specific. When I see some of the absolute trash that gets major publishing deals, I figure I'm bound to hammer out something worth half a poo poo at some point.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2022 20:44

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Leng posted:

There are loads of options, and it all depends on who you are as a writer. First off though, there are different kinds of editing and it's important that you understand the difference. Make sure you read the OP in the Fiction Writing Advice thread so you're across these. The way I conceptualize it, the different kinds of editing parallel the different kinds of revisions a book needs, and that varies depending on book. You also have different kinds of readers for those stages (if you're confused about the different types of readers, I have a video here about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU_rTMPnimo)

TL;DR summary - this is the rough order of revisions you should do:

1. Structural revisions - based on alpha reader feedback/developmental edit feedback.
2. Send to beta readers (test audience)
3. Did your beta readers identify major issues that require further structural revisions? If so, go to 1 and repeat until there are only minor issues left
4. Minor revisions - based on remaining beta reader feedback / line/copy editor feedback
5. Proof reading

To me, it sounds like you need to do some structural revisions first because there are things that don't work at the book level. The good news is, you can do a lot of this yourself. You're already kind of started, since you've self-identified problems with your manuscript, like characters who don't advance the story.

Personally, I edit as I write, and by that I mean, I'm constantly thinking about structure. If I'm in the middle of writing a scene and I figure out it's not going to work, I stop, cut it and figure out the structural problem first and then write what works. So I start with a rough outline (more like goal posts of where I want the story to go), discovery write my way to them, and when the writing starts veering off course, I stop to rebuild the outline before I keep going.

It doesn't mean that I DON'T have more structural revisions later. I still do�alpha and beta readers are always going to spot things you don't see yourself. But I have comparatively LESS structural revisions to do than if I hadn't thought about it first.

I'd suggest that your next steps are:
1) Finish project #3.
2) Go back to project #2 and look at it at a structural level, using whatever story structure framework you are using/prefer. Identify all the parts that don't work, using a method that works for you (whole manuscript printed, index cards, sticky notes, spreadsheets�personally I use a spreadsheet too)
3) Sit and brainstorm all the different ways you can fix those issues. This is the most painful part and where you're apt to go around in circles. Sometimes you will just have to try writing something to see if it works.
4) If you get really stuck on #3, get someone else to take a look. Your father is probably as good choice a choice as any. Also, if you haven't already, get yourself into a writing group or at least find a critique partner. I'd advise trying to finding other writers who are at about the same level you are with similar publication goals. Reading and giving critiques on other people's writing helps you get better as a writer, and getting their feedback on your writing will help you grow by leaps and bounds.

If your first draft prose is serviceable enough to be read by another person (i.e. there aren't any issues that would be really distracting), don't spend any time on line edits and word choices at this stage. It's a waste of time, because you can spend forever polishing prose and it's all pointless if you're just going to cut that scene later because it doesn't work structurally.

EDIT: pick your alpha readers carefully. You want people who can look past small line level things ("you repeated this word 4x on the same page!", "there are 3 comma splices and 2 improper uses of em dashes in this chapter!") and focus on the big picture stuff ("why is this character doing X when 4 chapters ago they did Y?", "does the B subplot add to the story because at this point, it feels like a distraction from the main conflict of Z").

You are the best. :derptiel:

Genuinely, thank you for effort posting on the topic. You've yet again provided more guidance than I've gleaned from a couple months of loving around on Google with results that are 90% selling something.

I am green with envy at the concept of established authors, who get to fart out a manuscript and have a team of professionals do all the legwork with editing/publishing/etc.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2022 19:33

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Howdy, writing friends. I return about 5k words away from finishing a rough draft of my fourth novel. I've written an average of 1k words a day for about two and a half years, and by the end of the month I'll have four rough drafts of lower case "H" horror novels.

And this time, I've been letting a trusted person who is published read along.

They...think it's worth publishing? I understand it's a sympathetic reviewer of a rough draft, but I'm a little buoyed by the response. In all seriousness, I'd say novel number two (monsters attack a secluded restaurant) and novel number four (two civil war veterans living in Tennessee earn the ire of the klan, who inadvertently piss off old forest spirits) are the ones worth a poo poo.

That said, I'm needing a little guidance on my next step - finding an editor.

I'm taking the advice from this thread seriously, and planning to do a god job of polishing out the rough edges in turning these from a "rough" to "first" draft before anything else happens. Also, I'm not allergic to paying for quality service as a first timer without any publishing credits to my name. But trying to play Google Roulette about editing is overwhelming and contradictory.

What would the recommendations be from this kind and helpful thread?

P. S. - The advice I've received here, along with Leng's videos, have literally outweighed anything else on the internet so far.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2023 15:23

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

As always, thank you for your well put response. :derptiel:

Jesus Christ, $5k? I could summon up a couple if it got done right. But five? That's really, really pushing it.

First off, I'm aware that I have some grammatical foibles. I'm awful with possessive apostrophes, I can have a tendency to repeat words unintentionally, and I know my formatting of characters speaking with each other is probably done incorrectly.

Also, I'm entirely open to guidance about what works and what doesn't work. Not sure where that would fall, categorically. I'm long winded from a lifetime of reading Stephen King, with this one probably clocking in at about 150k words in the rough draft. Which I know it too many for a first timer. I don't expect anyone alive to trust a first time publishing stranger to tell them a story that long.

My father (another published guy in his early sixties) is dumbfounded that a process no longer exists of sending samples to publishing companies, or editors, or anything else like that. Truth be told, I'm assuming self-publishing is the only way to go these days.

My initial goal is not making a bunch of money, although I don't want to lose any. I want to see if this is a feasible way for a recently physically disabled person like myself to get back to a productive line of work.

# ¿ Jan 21, 2023 23:31

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Woof, that's discouraging to the whole venture.

Anyways, I write and I'll keep writing. I just don't want it all to be for naught.

That said, I'm getting ahead of myself. I guess I'll rein it in a bit.

- Length -

Everything I write seems to clock in around 150k words for the finished product, as a rough draft. I've not gone through the process of rough to first draft yet, so I'm not sure how much I should try to shave. Articles I read seem to say anything over 80k words is dead in the water, with 100k being pure hubris. Is there a place for longer novels these days?

Truth be told, if something is less than 400 pages, I typically don't read it. I like a meaty novel when I'm reading, but I might be the minority.

- Editing -

Would anyone share their process of going from a raw rough draft to first? My rough drafts are "complete" in the sense that I've not skipped anything, or left sections with a note all in caps saying, "WRITE AN ENDING HERE!!!" I'm not sure if the process of crafting a first draft should be more focused on grammar and mechanics, or if it should have a more broad focus.

I do have a printed out copy with notes ready to help at least. :derptiel:

# ¿ Jan 22, 2023 14:50

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Phone posting, so just a quick thought -

My stories are not loaded with flashbacks to character�s various childhoods, soliloquies about the weather, or fifteen page descriptions about the glories of medieval pies. I do believe I tend to keep �chapters� at about 1k to 1.5k words and move the action along.

That said, dividing any of my novels into smaller novels as part of a series would be easy. I could tell you where I�d chop them up from memory.

If people want more bite sized novels, or novels served in separate courses, to me that�s an easy fix.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2023 15:57

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

First off, thank you for taking the time to break down my queries and offering such well thought responses.

I need to absorb everything just a bit, rather than rattle off a ton of questions like a toddler who just learned to ask, "why?!" But I do have one specific question before I really dig into everything.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by alpha and beta readers. Could you expound on that just a bit?

# ¿ Jan 23, 2023 13:30

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

newts posted:

Alpha readers might read the story as you�re writing it, or read a very rough draft. They�re not worried about grammar or word choice usually, but they may actually steer the story if they feel your plotting is off course. You don�t need alpha readers and most people probably don�t have them.

Beta readers read a polished rough draft. They�re there to give you an overall impression of the story, what works, what doesn�t, are there areas where the story could be improved, weak chapters? Are your characters interesting and are they performing actions that makes sense, etc. You get the idea. Everyone should have beta readers. And you can usually find people who will do the work for free or for an exchange of reading.

Please excuse me if I'm further asking the obvious, but are there recommended places to find beta readers? I'd be more than willing to offer whatever poor guidance I could muster for their work as well, once I've got a finished product in the next couple of weeks. I'm putting all my juice towards having this rough draft done.

I've existed in the forums as a lurker since 02, and as a poster since 06, but I stay in my little insulated subforums. Do we have that type of community here? I'm utterly unfamiliar with this helpful nook of creatives. :derptiel:

# ¿ Jan 23, 2023 14:34

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

newts posted:

You can ask around here. But there�s a pretty small pool of people here who might be willing to beta read, although they are very good. I�ve had some luck on r/BetaReaders. You�ll get farther there with an enticing blurb, a popular genre, and with offering to beta read in return. Those are the places I�ve used.

Leng knows a lot more (about everything) than I do. I�m sure she�ll be summoned to the thread soon.

I appreciate the guidance. Leng has been an invaluable resource through my adventures, so I'll be sitting here like an irritating sophomore waiting for their professor's office hours.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2023 15:14

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

jazzyjay posted:

Has anyone had any success using a third party marketer to promote their books? I have a trilogy that was published three years ago that was well received, thanks to the advice from this thread (thanks!)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0753KKR7B

I havent done anything to market them in the last two years or so, and dont have the time for writing or promo since I'm working full time at my day job - so I'm wondering if it would be worthwhile to hire a marketing team to do the promo for me. I've checked fivrr etc and cant tell the wheat from the chaff - or even if it is worth doing in the first place.

Just a compliment - Those really caught my eye in a good way!

Do they not come in print form? Not sure how that all works. It seems a shame, to not see those covers in person.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2023 14:34

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

newts posted:

Results: First one is with the text spaced a bit more vertically + logo adjusted. Second is the same as the first, but with hand-lettered author and series name (rather than Lato). Let me know what you think.

I can always shrink the hand-lettered text down and change the color, I just haven�t bothered yet.

Firstly, I think that looks excellent. It makes me think of Neil Gaiman, which is a great thing in my book.

I'd wish I could see the tattoo on the character's chest, which are obscured by "BONES." Also, I'd take the second picture for the font. For whatever reason, the font on the first selection makes me think of it being done quickly at home.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2023 13:24

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

God, reading about this AI stuff is both depressing and discouraging.

But, I'm going to keep writing everyday and just see what happens. :derptiel:

-----------------
Anyways, I've got a very general couple of questions to ask in an effort to help guide me a bit more intelligently -

I'm approaching the halfway point in turning a rough draft into a first draft. I hate the process, compared to writing fresh stuff. But it's coming along. I was expecting to slash a lot more from the first draft. But it's weighing in at 175k words, and so far I'm finding it to be decently paced. It has been read by one person, who is published, and they don't think it needs to be significantly chopped down. Hell, they told me they want more from the characters. However, I understand one person who knows me isn't exactly a neutral source of criticism.

Which has led me to believe I should turn it into two or three novels in a series.

- Easy Question Number One - At 175k words, I know a real editor will be able to shave it down by some amount. Regardless of the prospect, would a first time author do better with three 50k word novels in a series, or a two novels coming in closer to 70-80k words?

- Harder Question Number Two - Bear with me on this one, it's hard for me to state concisely. I've taken to heart the advice in this thread, especially about knowing your market. I call what I'm writing, "Lower Case H Horror." It's not meant to hold a scare every ten pages, with a lot more focus on characters while saving the monsters for bigger conflicts. It's closer in spirit to Stephen King than Clive Barker.

That said, my monsters are also not easily categorized. If I had to put their description in a sentence, it would be, "Corpses of men ranging from a week to multiple centuries old, warped into shambling tree monsters that protect the balance of nature." But I've been told they fall closer to the category of "cryptids", which I thought applied to Bigfoot and Sea Monsters.

When your work doesn't easily slot into one category, what do you find to be the best practice? Pick one, and make it fit with a sledgehammer? Or just get a finished product, then worry about genre?

# ¿ May 2, 2023 13:31

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Thank you both for the excellent insight into how I should proceed.

I'm 110% focusing on just getting through the drat thing, having never done the rough to first draft thing in the five novels I've written in the past three-ish years. It's certainly a completely different skillset. But it's also revealing that I'd be a complete rear end in a top hat to expect anyone to read the rough draft who isn't outright asking to do so. I cannot believe some of the simple mistakes, while be largely happy I've only run into one or two minor plot holes I created. The story is sound, but it needs a coat of paint.

Truth be told, I'm less concerned with initial financial success than I am with making something that gets some readers. I'd be absolutely fine if these just paid for themselves, if it helped create an audience for my writing. However, I'd be lying to say I've considered the marketing angles.

One question - Why no cliffhangers? I'm thirty-eight, and always loved cliffhangers growing up. But I always read about people younger than me being pissed at any cliffhangers in television.

# ¿ May 5, 2023 12:29

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

CaptainCrunch posted:

A literal year later follow-up, but this review was immensely helpful. I did end up going to Damonza for my cover and am utterly thrilled with it. So, thank you for posting your review.

The cover:

Really digging that cover!

# ¿ May 10, 2023 13:03

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Howdy, everyone. I'm back, with my fourth novel done and revised after a friendly reader went through it. This is the one I plan to publish first, then some of the previous ones I've written would be next.

Note - This is not planned to be one gigantic rear end novel. I'm breaking it up into two, if not three. I know that word count is ludicrous for someone not named Stephen King.

Good loving God, I cannot tell y'all just how overwhelming the publishing process if for a first timer. This thread? It's gold. But even with the incredibly helpful stuff going on in here, it's still beyond daunting for a person who isn't very online, if that makes any sense. I don't use social media very much, let alone all these different forums and platforms. I like to write. Everything else makes my head hurt.

Here's where I'm getting stuck -

- What do I need to have ready to go, regardless of the path I take? I'm talking about a blurb/synopsis/whatever-the-hell gets sent out to prospective editors, contests, publishers, agents, etc. I've read everything from saying one needs a two page synopsis, a chapter-by-chapter breakdown, a single paragraph blurb, etc.

- I know paying for an editor is looked at as wasted money in this thread. That said, I'm a disabled person, which means profit is something that literally has to be discussed with a lawyer so I don't lose my health benefits. I'm in the unique position of not looking to do anything but financially break even on my first venture. I'm trying to get a book out with my name attached to it to grow a readership. If that means handing a couple grand to a legit editor to do it right, I can handle that.

- Genre : I consider what I wrote to be defined and "Lower Case H Horror." The villains are horrific, and nasty things happen. But it's not a scare a minute, or meant to be incredibly fast paced.

It is about two civil war veterans who live together. Their living situation, being two bachelors without wives, becomes a flashpoint for the local chapter of the Ku Klux Klan. They get accused of being gay, and attacked. But due to actions taken by the Klan, old woods demons are awoken who infest the bodies of the dead. Bizarre monsters are created, and A Bunch of poo poo ensues.

That is not a blurb at all. Just a keep couple of sentences to sorta give y'all an idea. With that said, I don't know where I'd land when it comes to genre.

As always, I appreciate the time anyone takes to point my old rear end in the right direction. You are all kind with your time and words.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2023 13:21

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

freebooter posted:

I don't know how either your health benefits or US taxation works, but definitely do be careful about this - I don't declare any of my writing income to the ATO until the end of the financial year, which is also when I claim my business write-offs for cover design and advertising etc, and the trade-off for that is that I do actually have a lot of net profit flowing into my bank account for 12+ months before I've declared to any authorities that it is indeed net rather than gross profit. So e.g. if you pour thousands of dollars into editing and then your royalties recoup that profit and make it a wash, it may not necessarily look like a wash for a while to come. (Like I said though, I'm in Australia and I have no idea how income tax works for authors based in the same country that Amazon is.)

Without going into minute details, I'm in the US. I receive monthly healthcare procedures that cost an ungodly six-figure amount per year for a "terminal" condition, which is covered by the state after a twenty-eight month court battle including lawyers. If I earn over a certain amount, my life saving healthcare coverage goes away.

I hope to eventually be able to become un-disabled, but it's loving tap-dancing on the trap-door to a gallows to do it correctly.

The US is hell for people with health conditions. I'd bet I'm far from the only person in this thread in similar circumstances.

Leng posted:

Very helpful words.

Leng, as always, you're a light in the forest. Even if that light is somewhat terrifying. :derptiel:

Let me try to break it into smaller steps, otherwise I'll get completely locked up by the enormity of it all.

I've not completely settled on self-publishing vs. traditional publishing. I'm leaning self-publishing, which is why I'm posting here first.

That said, here is my most pressing issue - THE BLURB.

Some places want a quick couple of sentences, while others want a page or two. Do y'all write one of each? Would this be an appropriate place to put one, to see if it hits? What word counts would I be looking at?

Title Art - $100 is completely reasonable, and frankly cheaper than I expected. I believe Leng posted a video about covers I need to re-watch.

I've already got a good idea of what I'd like the first cover to be, so I'm hoping that's helpful. I'd love it to have the style of 1980's horror novels, like Stephen King, and just be a simple image. An old oak tree in a dark copse of trees with a bloody Klan hood staked to it. Simple enough?

(Side Note that might be relevant - My book doesn't have chapters, just breaks. It distinctly moves from scene to scene, always from the perspective only two characters. I see a lot of places that assume chapters are a given.)

# ¿ Sep 29, 2023 11:56

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Would it be appropriate to post a rough, rough, rough stab at a blurb here? Or the fiction writing thread? I don't want to poo poo up this good thread with my amateurish attempts if it's inappropriate.

The hard part I'm encountering is that I more or less made up my monsters. I don't have an easy, preconceived fallback word like vampires or werewolves. They're basically reanimated corpses, which are infested with plant-like growths which rip apart their bodies while transforming them into unique beasts. There is an old spirit/creature, which is like a giant birch tree covered in the flayed pelts of long dead people who committed awful sins against the woods. But the latter is a major plot point I wouldn't want to reveal in a blurb.

The Klan are the actual straight-up evil bad guys in my novel, while the monsters are more of a response to the evil of men.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2023 13:39

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

I hate most of this, especially the first line. But I believe it's supposed to go hook, characters, setting, and conflict in 250 words. Don't think I nailed it at all, but need to know what direction to steer. I appreciate the criticisms in advance.

------

After the severed heads of six goats are staked against an old tree, an ancient force is awoken.

Deep in the rolling hills of Tennessee, two Union veterans of the American Civil War build a quiet life in the town of Lawrenceboro. Childhood friends Francis Meet and Freddy Monk grew up playing amongst the thick woods outside the small town, and now own the very land holding the Meet family homestead. Without wives or children, the pair tend to a small number of livestock while bandaging both the physical and mental wounds left by war.

But most local families sent soldiers to fight for the Confederacy, which returned bitter and beaten men. The rumblings of simmering hatred from the defeated coalesce into the burgeoning Ku Klux Klan, an organization intent on maintaining the established southern order of white supremacy through hooded nighttime raids punctuated by brutal lynchings.

The very existence of two Union veterans prospering outside of town is an affront to the worst elements of Lawrenceboro. As rumors spread about the lifestyle of the men, the Klan takes action against their homestead. The first casualties are goats, torn apart by dull Bowie knives before being staked to an old oak tree.

While the pair at the homestead prepare to match lead with lead, the evisceration of animals awakens an ancient entity from deep within the soil. An infestation begins to take hold, plunging the countryside into an otherworldly violence older than the words printed upon the pages of the thick family Bibles sat within each home.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2023 19:14

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

freebooter posted:

It could be a tad more concise but generally I think that's pretty good. I definitely feel like I know what I'm getting if I buy the book.

With the caveat I'm just another dude who also posts my blurbs in here asking for feedback, the bolded parts are what I'd cut or modify:

-------

After the severed heads of six goats are staked against an old tree, an ancient force is awoken.

Deep in the rolling hills of Tennessee, two Union veterans of the American Civil War build a quiet life in the town of Lawrenceboro. Childhood friends Francis Meet and Freddy Monk grew up playing amongst the thick woods outside the small town (something less wordy), and now own the very land holding the Meet family homestead. Without wives or children, the pair tend to a small number of (their) livestock while bandaging both the physical and mental wounds left by war.

But most local families sent soldiers to fight for the Confederacy, which (who) returned bitter and beaten men. The rumblings of simmering hatred from the defeated coalesce[s] into the burgeoning Ku Klux Klan, an organization intent on maintaining the established southern (Southern) order of white supremacy through hooded nighttime raids punctuated by (and) brutal lynchings.

The very existence of two Union veterans prospering outside of town is an affront to the worst elements of Lawrenceboro. As rumors spread about the lifestyle of the men, the Klan takes action against their homestead. The first casualties are goats, torn apart by dull Bowie knives before being (and) staked to an old oak tree.

While the pair at the homestead prepare to match lead with lead, the evisceration of animals awakens an ancient entity from deep within the soil. An infestation begins to take hold, plunging the countryside into an otherworldly violence older than the words printed upon the pages of the thick family Bibles sat within each home (I like the description here but not sure it's the best way to end the blurb).

Thank you so very, very much.

The concise bit does hit, as I'm very on the fence about length. Some articles say no more than 150 words, with others leaning towards longer than my 261 words. The last sentence bugs the hell out of me! Not specifically what I wrote, but trying to come up with a final tag. Should I end with a bullshit, "WHAT WILL BECOME OF THIS GRAND HORROR CONFLAGRATION?!?!

It's also funny, because a couple of your edits are things I was flip-flopping about on my own. It's very reassuring to see another voice give me a nudge in the right direction.

I'll probably see if anyone else weighs in, and put up a revised version.

My main question for any thread readers would be this - What should the final sentence of a blurb contain?

# ¿ Oct 1, 2023 13:23

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

freebooter posted:

You're welcome. I also struggle to end my blurbs, which is why I think most of mine give a hint of what's about to happen and literally end with an ellipsis. My very rough rule of thumb (especially in the horror genre) is that a blurb should loosely outline the first act and suggest what's going to happen in the second.

I think your length is OK but I try to make individual sentences in my blurb really tight, more so than in my actual book, because you're facing a much harder battle for people's attention span when they're scrolling through Amazon than when they're reading a book. This also means you end up going over and over the same bits and pieces of text, though, which does your head in. One thing I find helpful is to start drafting your blurb well in advance of finishing your book, then go back to working on the book for a few weeks, then come back to it with fresh eyes. (Or even write a new one from scratch or from memory, and compare them, because the stronger aspects will have stuck in your head while the weaker ones won't have.)

All of which seems like a lot of effort for 300ish words, but as this thread was very useful in drilling into me, your blurb and your cover are as important as your book.

No bullshit, I worked on that loving thing for three days before posting it. I typically write fresh prose of about a thousand words per day.

I loving hate editing.

Once I've stared at it a while longer, I'll repost it. So far, I've shaved thirty words!

:stare:

# ¿ Oct 1, 2023 21:10

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Icon-Cat posted:

Here's my take on the Captain Log blurb. I get the sense that you thinking of the international audience and maybe that's why you're explaining what the Civil War / KKK is when an American reader of historical fiction wouldn't need it; would a European reader of historical fiction set in America? I mean, if I'm interested in books taking place in Victorian times, I don't need Queen Victoria or Parliament (for example) explained in the blurb.

Bingo.

I've got a degree in philosophy and history, with the history part having an emphasis in the American Civil War. First off, you'd be amazed how many drat Americans have zero clue about the Civil War. I also don't assume my audience to be American, as half my family are immigrants.

But I also had a job managing a restaurant in Kansas many years ago. Most of my servers were in the eighteen to twenty-three year old range. They always wanted me to do "Shift Quizzes," where I'd entertain them throughout a shift by having Jeopardy style quiz questions for them to answer for end-of-shift prizes.

This always stuck with me - Out of nine servers, all with a minimum of a high school education and almost everyone of them in college or heading that way, not a single one could name who was on American currency. They didn't even get Abraham Lincoln or George Washington.

:stare:

After that, I never assume my audience knows history.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2023 13:18

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

leper khan posted:

The people going on in tyotl 2023 about the war for southern rights know full drat well that they're the bad guy.

The KKK is a hate group, and not inactive. I'd tread very carefully with the topic. Honestly your framing in this comment I find offensive.

freebooter posted:

Perhaps I have an overly left-wing Twitter feed, but the impression I have always received is that e.g. the notion of tearing down statues to Confederate generals is controversial, Southern school history textbooks emphasise the Lost Cause narrative and downplay the horrors of slavery, Confederate flag bumper stickers are perfectly common etc. As such, from the perspective of a potential foreign reader* of a self-published novel, I don't think the sentence in that blurb "explaining" the Confederacy/KKK is excessive. Like, it's probably not necessary, but neither did it strike me as redundant.

*(not that this really matters since 90% of your English-speaking readership are always going to be in the US)

After studying this poo poo at an academic level and living the majority of my life in the US south, with half of my family being ultra-conservative, here is my overly simplified take -

The KKK is always seen as "bad guys" for lack of a better term. Yes, some racists will think otherwise. But they're straight up unapologetic racists, full stop.

But the Lost Cause about the confederacy is above alive and well. In 2005, Kentucky had 247 or 243 Civil War monuments. Excuse my forgetting which number it was. Of those monuments, two were Union and one was for both sides. But Kentucky sent two-thirds of its troops to fight for the Union. I went to towns with confederate monuments in graveyards who didn't send a soul to fight for the south.

The "States Rights" bullshit perpetrated upon the American consciousness by the Daughters of the Confederacy seeped into everything.

Oddly enough, the other half of my family is all British immigrants. This makes me very conscious of not being America-centric in my thought process. Which means adding a couple of words to make sure I'm being clear about painting the Confederacy for what they were, a racist secession to further white supremacy, is something I'll probably keep.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2023 12:17

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

I let my vocabulary unlock and marinate a little bit by working on a short story for a little while, then returned to my blurb. The fine folks in TFR actually took some very adept stabs at making it better, and at this point I've got this much. It's clocking in at 212 words, which is good?

-------------

The sadistic butchering of six goats left their severed heads staked to an old oak. But their terrified bleats awakened an ancient force, plunging the countryside into terror.

Deep in the rolling hills of Tennessee, two Union veterans of the Civil War build a life outside the town of Lawrenceboro. Childhood friends Francis Meet and Freddy Monk were raised amongst the thick woods outside the Meet family homestead. Without wives or children, the pair quietly tend to the land while bandaging the wounds left by war.

Most neighbors sent sons to fight for the Confederacy, who returned bitter and beaten men. Defeat channeled their simmering hatred into the burgeoning Ku Klux Klan, intent on maintaining the southern order of white supremacy through hooded nighttime raids and brutal lynchings.

The presence of two Union veterans prospering was an affront to the worst citizens of Lawrenceboro. As rumors swirled around their supposedly unnatural lifestyle, the Klan took action. Their goats were the first casualties, sawn apart by dull Bowie knives and staked to an old oak.

As the pair of homesteaders prepare to answer with lead, the mutilation awakens an ancient entity soaked deep within the soil. An infestation older than Cain and Abel takes root, choking the town with vines soaked with blood.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2023 12:14

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

rohan posted:

I think my first response to that synopsis is: yeah, and� ?

The ending needs some work; I�m not left with any clear idea about what the novel�s really going to be about, who the antagonists actually are, or how the protagonists will attempt to address the threat. Do they need to defeat the KKK? Or is the �ancient entity� the real villain? Is that somehow siding with the KKK, or is it against people in general?

My gut reaction is that introducing the KKK as villains, before introducing a supernatural enemy as a villain, seems risky as I worry it�s going to somehow diminish the very real threat of the KKK. I�m sure the book itself handles this better, but it�s a concern I have after reading this synopsis.

Bright Bart posted:

I'm staying out of this except to point out that the whole 'other humans are the real monsters' usually have the human baddies show up midway through without much warning not entirely unexpected. And the human baddies aren't already people every reader instantly identifies as being terrible.

If this was realized before, carry on.

Thank you very much for the input. Without going into deep spoiler territory, the "real" villain is meant to be vague at a glance. (It's the KKK, not the monsters.)

The problem I'm running into is being punchy in a blurb. This story has tendrils, at least I hope it does, and takes time to shake out. Are the protagonists gay? Is there a monster in the woods? Is most of the town in the Klan? Is the actual Sheriff running the show? etc etc etc.

This blurb inflated to almost 300 words before I took out my razor. I'm trying to find a balance of brevity, and it's hard.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2023 15:16

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

Is using an agent a thing in the self-publishing space?

This is a helpful conversation to read, regardless of the answer. I'm feeling a little stuck with next steps, and need to hit up the trad-publishing thread to make sure I'm pointed in the right direction.

# ¿ Oct 16, 2023 12:48

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# ¿ Apr 25, 2024 08:38

Captain Log: Oct 2, 2006; Captain Log posted:
"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"

I do have a quick question -

Some publishers self-publishing companies asking for submissions will ask for an entire manuscript. Just plonking my 175k word manuscript into various places makes me nervous as hell. Is that a legit thing to ask?

# ¿ Oct 17, 2023 12:48

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Creative Convention > Self-Publishing Goons: Yep, people buy it!

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