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Tortuga posted:Where did the troon talk come from? I thought troon meant transgender goon, not transethnic. I think I said something positive about Trans people in the UKMT and that's given him the idea that I'm transexual?
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Jun 8, 2014 20:59
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Pissflaps posted:Would you prefer it if I put on a Scottish accent or would that distract you from your ad hominem attacks? Masterful! A personal jab against the poster you're arguing with in the same sentence as a plea for us all to stop talking about other posters. Good job. Also for the ten billionth time the problem with Rangers expressing an opinion is the connotations of sectarianism in the old firm and the old tensions that could bring even further into the independence debate, though the orange lodge (and occasionally, george galloway) is doing it's best on it's own. And Andy Murray is deliberately not expressing a preference either way which is his right and which he's allowed to do. Anyway I'm going to go back to the Nat Bunker where we can all intricately coordinate our attacks against you. We get free irn-bru and haggis supplied by the Weir family, it's great.
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Jun 8, 2014 21:11
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Angepain posted:Masterful! A personal jab against the poster you're arguing with in the same sentence as a plea for us all to stop talking about other posters. Good job. I don't think it's realistic to have a Scottish referendum on independence without inciting sectarian tensions Having one rich couple bankroll two* major players in the independence debate is a whole different kettle of fish.
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Jun 8, 2014 21:16
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Pissflaps posted:I don't think it's realistic to have a Scottish referendum on independence without inciting sectarian tensions Angepain posted:I don't think anybody expected this not to happen, the Old Firm rivalry shoving its way into the independence question as a way to exploit any possible division for ticket sales is entirely predictable. That doesn't mean it's a good thing or that it constructively adds to the debate... Also, it looks like you're treading pretty close to "that's just the Way Things Are, no use in complaining" here.
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Jun 8, 2014 21:19
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In other news, went to see Edge of Tomorrow last week (good fun, but it's very Tom Cruise) seems at least the Odeon in Dundee is still showing those damned BT/Yes cinema ads despite reports they'd be pulled. Very head-in-hands moment as one popped up just as I told a friend next to me that they were pulled. Also this weeks Sunday Herald is a drat worthwhile buy, not for the 100 days independence angle - which there is a lot - but for the fact that they are the first newspaper that I have read a printed story about Misogyny, the online feminist activism #YesAllWomen and the problem about violence and rape against women in Scotland. Honestly surprised they ran that.
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Jun 8, 2014 21:47
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Aliginge posted:In other news, went to see Edge of Tomorrow last week (good fun, but it's very Tom Cruise) seems at least the Odeon in Dundee is still showing those damned BT/Yes cinema ads despite reports they'd be pulled. Very head-in-hands moment as one popped up just as I told a friend next to me that they were pulled. There's been a string of rapes in Glasgow that all seem to be related according to the News. Pretty shocking. Aye, the Herald is a pretty good paper.
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Jun 8, 2014 21:51
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Gonzo McFee posted:For Fucks sake, does anyone Scottish care if Cohoolin care if adopts the Scottish culture? Because all I ever see is the English feel slighted that he hasn't chosen to be part of the British Empire. It's racist and I'd rather it stopped appearing in these threads. Can you please show where the bad English touched you.
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Jun 8, 2014 22:54
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Pissflaps posted:That's fine let's all move on. Were moving into the final 100 days of the campaign it's time to focus on the issues. The issues have long since been the issue. Frequently, you and others try to make it about individuals - see that newspaper last month coming out in support of independence, which you immediately tried to make out to be unconditional support for a god king alex salmond. Any time there's "good" news for independence, you're immediately posting about something vaguely tangentially related which means that ooh, that's a stumble for yes, will they ever build up a momentum  I'd not mind but it drags down the overall tone of the thread. If you're a "No" supporter, that's fine it would be a very boring thread if only one side came to the party, but I actually become irritated reading your posts because I genuinely get the feeling you're not here to argue in good faith. quote:I'm not sure if this is allowed or not as he is a person, but also a professional sportsman. As an individual, he's entitled to express his opinion for or against the debate as he sees fit. tithin fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jun 8, 2014 |
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Jun 8, 2014 22:56
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As an Englishman I want to know what will happen to me if Scotland becomes independent. Will I be allowed to become a dirty immigrant and move to Scotland?
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Jun 8, 2014 23:01
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If you move in time to register for the vote, you can have citizenship and everything, I think. White Paper says a lot about this. Other than that it's a question of whether iScotland or rUK leaves the EU first I guess? If both remain in the EU then immigration would be pretty straightforward.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:04
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I really find it hard to believe that Scotland will not be in the EU for too long. Nor the UK. All the bluster about leaving the EU will never go any further. We got too much to lose.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:07
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You might be right about that: it's the only obstacle I can think of though. Otherwise it'd be as straightforward as moving to France, but easier because of the shared language.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:11
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Sir Rabia Tirnova posted:As an individual, he's entitled to express his opinion for or against the debate as he sees fit. Maybe you could extend me the same courtesy? Obliterati posted:Other than that it's a question of whether iScotland or rUK leaves the EU first I guess? If both remain in the EU then immigration would be pretty straightforward. All the noises from Europe are that Scotland would need to apply to join the EU like any other new member state so it can't really 'remain' in it unless this process can run parallel with indepence negotiations and take less time than they do to conclude.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:19
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Pissflaps posted:Maybe you could extend me the same courtesy? Sir Rabia Tirnova posted:If you're a "No" supporter, that's fine it would be a very boring thread if only one side came to the party You're entitled to your opinion - I don't get irritated by you being a no poster, I get irritated by your style of posting - It's incredibly negative, often tangential to the conversation, and ultimately not particularly relevant.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:23
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Sir Rabia Tirnova posted:You're entitled to your opinion - I don't get irritated by you being a no poster, I get irritated by your style of posting - It's incredibly negative, often tangential to the conversation, and ultimately not particularly relevant. That's what the ignore button is for. If you must keep talking about me send me a pm because, interesting as I am, I am not what this thread is about. I find it depressingly ironic that despite my bet attempts to bring the conversation back to indepence related issues you persist in these personal attacks then accuse me of being irrelevant.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:25
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Now I am a fence sitter as I can't vote. Right now however my prediction for the results would be Deadlocked with No, peeking out, But it's not really a good idea to start predicting something like this as neither side shown any real boost so far. I don't really trust the polls at all as it kinda comical to see how one poll says Yes is winning and on the same day see a No is winning poll. It's like that moment in Loony Toon's with the Rabbit/Duck Season signs.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:26
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Supeerme posted:Now I am a fence sitter as I can't vote. Right now however my prediction for the results would be Deadlocked with No, peeking out, But it's not really a good idea to start predicting something like this as neither side shown any real boost so far. I've said it before but Yes will be lucky to get over 40%. There has never been a poll that shows Yes in the lead.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:28
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I'd really rather not put you on ignore. You don't learn anything from the other side of the debate if you ignore their arguments. I'd also sooner not PM you because I don't feel we have anthing to discuss. You believe your style of posting is appropriate to the thread, I don't. It's a difference of opinion not easily solved - I only ask that you bear in mind that the way you're posting is actively putting people off the overall debate.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:28
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Pissflaps posted:That's what the ignore button is for. Said the man who every time Coohoolin post goes for the personal attacks.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:33
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Sir Rabia Tirnova posted:You're entitled to your opinion - I don't get irritated by you being a no poster, I get irritated by your style of posting - It's incredibly negative, often tangential to the conversation, and ultimately not particularly relevant. Pissflaps, your contributions would be perfectly valid (or at least no worse than anyone else's here) if you didn't phrase them like an rear end. The whole '(apparently) devastating smug one liner' shtick is bound to rub people up the wrong way sooner or later. So if you stop doing that maybe the thread can stop just being a mess of insults. Pissflaps posted:And that's because the Scottish independence debate is over. This is what I'm talking about ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jun 8, 2014 |
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Jun 8, 2014 23:38
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Gonzo McFee posted:Said the man who every time Coohoolin post goes for the personal attacks. I've never once posted a 'personal attack' against someone in this or the previous thread that wasn't prompted by said poster choosing to engage with me aggressively first. If you can quote a single post of mine in this thread or the previous one that contradicts this statement I'll never post in it again. I think what's interesting about this conversation is how it has absolutely nothing to do with Scottish independence. And that's because the Scottish independence debate is over.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:39
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Pissflaps posted:Maybe we should all stop talking about posters and hurling ridiculous accusations of racism against white people and focus on the independence referendum. This is a great post, I just wanted to say. Kudos on the good post.
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Jun 9, 2014 00:11
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XyloJW posted:This is a great post, I just wanted to say. Kudos on the good post. Bwhahaha. Yo, Mr Mod Man, while you're here is there any way to find out how many users have me on ignore? I was looking at the archives earlier and it seems I was a total arsehole a few years ago  edit: This is relevant to the independence referendum because its about freedom of speech or something.
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Jun 9, 2014 01:01
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No. Less than 156. Who cares.
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Jun 9, 2014 01:14
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Has there been discussion over how national debt and assets would be split following a yes vote? IIRC scotland produces 9.6% of the UK's GDP, recieves 9.3% and has 8.4% of the population It could just be 8.4% of everything but on a national level spending (debt) provides income for companies which in turn generates GDP. I think it's be fairer for scotland to recieve a share of the debt equivilant to their GDP rather then population. I haven't posted about this before so to clarify my position i'm not socttish but if i were i'd probably vote yes although as a resident of the UK i enjoy having scotland as part of the UK and really, really don't want the thousand year tory reich that would follow independance. Also irn-bru owns
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Jun 9, 2014 10:40
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Loving Africa Chaps posted:Has there been discussion over how national debt and assets would be split following a yes vote? There has been never-ending discussion over this, as it is likely to be one of the major points in negotiations in the event of a Yes vote. The current position is that the (eventual) rUK has taken full responsibility for the totality of UK debt to stop The Markets (hallowed be thy name) making GBS threads themselves.
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Jun 9, 2014 12:50
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Pasco posted:The current position is that the (eventual) rUK has taken full responsibility for the totality of UK debt to stop The Markets (hallowed be thy name) making GBS threads themselves. To clarify, this doesn't mean the rUK is going to be the least bit happy with Scotland not taking a fair share of that debt willingly, which the SNP at least have said they're willing to do in exchange for a fair share of the UK assets. What exactly constitutes a "fair share" is another matter, of course. Also as for the thousand-year tory reich, that's been exaggerated a bit - it may reduce Labour's majority but Scotland's MPs have very rarely been decisive in what government the UK gets, having just 59 MPs out of 650. The only exceptions as far as I remember are a few short-lived hung parliaments and the current govermnent, where we've managed to shift a barely workable Tory majority into the coalition we have now.
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Jun 9, 2014 13:02
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Angepain posted:Also as for the thousand-year tory reich, that's been exaggerated a bit - it may reduce Labour's majority but Scotland's MPs have very rarely been decisive in what government the UK gets, having just 59 MPs out of 650. The only exceptions as far as I remember are a few short-lived hung parliaments and the current govermnent, where we've managed to shift a barely workable Tory majority into the coalition we have now. It's also worth pointing out that the UK election results in Scotland were exactly the same in 2010 as they were in 2005. There's really nothing Scotland can do to stop the Tories getting in if the rest of the UK continues to vote for them.
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Jun 9, 2014 13:30
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There's also UKIP making the Tories super-uncomfortable nowadays, so that should be a factor in any predictions regarding UK politics post-independence. UK politics will be swinging rightwards in the next few years whether it drags Scotland along or not. GeeCee fucked around with this message at 14:11 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 13:58
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This is a pretty good introduction to some of the problems with Commonweal and the left-wing discourse on independence. http://mairnorarochwind.wordpress.com/2014/06/08/levelling-up/
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Jun 9, 2014 14:14
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Loving Africa Chaps posted:Has there been discussion over how national debt and assets would be split following a yes vote?
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Jun 9, 2014 14:50
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Alertrelic posted:This is a pretty good introduction to some of the problems with Commonweal and the left-wing discourse on independence. I can see their point, but if I've got this right they mainly seem to be saying that it doesn't go far enough, rather than saying it wouldn't be an improvement to what we have at the moment, right? I don't want to seem like I'm dismissing the criticism in some kind of Well If You Think You're So Great You Get Your Own Academic Thinktank Then sort of way, because I don't imagine we can elect Robin McAlpine God-King of Scotland Forever and then we won't have any more problems to deal with. But still looking at the possible ways that Scotland might go in the future, taking into account both possibilities for the referendum, the Common Weal still seems to give the best combination of a) possible improvements and b) likelihood of being at least partially put into place. Also I took their line about not needing blame and resentment as more of a reaction to blaming benefit scroungers/immigrants/defenceless scapegoat of the week etc, but maybe I'm just reading into it what I want to read.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:00
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forkboy84 posted:Understandable from a political viewpoint but it does seem a bit short termist to unwilling to have something like this ironed out in advance. The UK government currently represents the entirety of the UK, including Scotland. Any sort of pre-negotiation would see the UK government negotiating for its 'future' best interests against its current ones. It's an impossible thing to ask. Nothing like this can be decided until and unless the people of Scotland declare they want independence and take away that mandate from the UK government.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:06
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My copy of Common Weal finally arrived today, it has very pretty packaging and smells nice. If you don't feel like spending a massive £6 for it, you can also get an ebook version for free at the below link. http://allofusfirst.bigcartel.com/product/e-book-common-weal-practical-idealism-for-scotland Ok it's not Mao's Red Book, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone from The Jimmy Reid foundation refer to it as such. At a glance most of the arguments seem to be perfectly reasonable social democratic ideals.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:12
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keep punching joe posted:My copy of Common Weal finally arrived today, it has very pretty packaging and smells nice. Thanks to the Something Awful Forums I've just shoved my nose into a public policy proposal and inhaled, it was a pleasant experience and I have no regrets. There is also the added game of fiddling around with an elastic ribbon thing in order to actually get into the drat thing, this is a metaphor for how a better Scotland will only come through hard work and struggle etc.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:25
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Angepain posted:I can see their point, but if I've got this right they mainly seem to be saying that it doesn't go far enough, rather than saying it wouldn't be an improvement to what we have at the moment, right? Pretty much I think. It is a well-written site by a few Yes-supporting Labourites who have the standard terminal disappointment that full-socialism isn't being implemented right now. Their criticisms aren't wrong but it's just the normal boring story of the left sniping at eachother. twoot fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 17:36
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Pissflaps posted:The UK government currently represents the entirety of the UK, including Scotland. Any sort of pre-negotiation would see the UK government negotiating for its 'future' best interests against its current ones. It's an impossible thing to ask. So you agree that it's a bit of an unreasonable thing for the No campaign to use as an "uncertainty" argument against independence?
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Jun 9, 2014 18:24
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Kin posted:So you agree that it's a bit of an unreasonable thing for the No campaign to use as an "uncertainty" argument against independence? No because the reality is those uncertainties exist. Besides I'm not sure which uncertainties would be settled during post-yes negotiations as they seem to be largely based on economic performance, the eu, pensions etc.
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Jun 9, 2014 18:50
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I'm not going to get into everything just now but if you're reading this FYI any uncertainty or fear about pensions or losing pensions has been REPEATEDLY quashed by those with the authority to do so and is only ever brought up by unionists as a scare tactic. http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/8083-whitehall-department-confirms-state-pension-safe-after-independence I can't find a copy of the original letter just now but it shouldn't be difficult.
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Jun 9, 2014 21:56
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Coohoolin posted:I'm not going to get into everything just now but if you're reading this FYI any uncertainty or fear about pensions or losing pensions has been REPEATEDLY quashed by those with the authority to do so and is only ever brought up by unionists as a scare tactic. State pensions aren't the only pensions. http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-eu-deals-pensions-blow-1-3356554
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Jun 9, 2014 22:23
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