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Hi thread I am interesting in discussing Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. I finished reading Simon Armitage's translation and immensely enjoyed it, but some bits of it are kind of baffling. I'm told that this is the appropriate place to discuss it. I feel like there's a huge amount of assumed cultural context that I'm missing, which is...expected, really, but it does make some of it weird. Anyways, so, when Gawain's in Castle Hautdesert and the lord makes the proposal to swap the winnings from his hunt tomorrow with whatever Gawain achieves during the day, what would Gawain have thought he'd be able to achieve? For the lord it's obvious what he'd swap (meat, stories) but for Gawain, he's basically expected to hang around and socialize for the day, so what form would he think his winnings would take when making the deal? Was generous gift-giving between high-class knights/nobles normal, and he'd be thinking in terms of that? Would he expect to be doing courtly romance, and he actually was down to give kisses/tokens/possibly sex back to the lord? Was he just too bound by "hey I promised to do what the host said, and he said this" to object? My sort of broad read on the whole situation is that he's trapped by his chivalric honor between "Can't say no to the host who I pledged to serve" and "Can't commit adultery, that's super duper not acceptable" so he accepts the bargin even on the second and third days, when he has some idea of how it'll go down, and then basically spends the day running out the clock on Lady Hautdesert. But it's also kind of baffling that he can't just tell Lady Hautdesert that adultery is super not okay and he's not down for it, especially on the second day when she basically goes from implying to directly saying "Yes I would like to bang you while my husband is away Gawain." Instead he goes into a sort of deflection, like "Oh I'm not actually all that great at love, you know, you're probably better than me haha" and basically runs out the clock again. Was it considered unchivalric for a man to directly refuse what is, basically, a sinful and presumably unacceptable proposal from a woman? Like...what's the deal here, it's not like he's going to insult her for implying she wants to do a bad thing when she's basically tell him "yes I would like to do one adultery please."
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# ¿ Apr 2, 2021 22:28 |
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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 05:54 |
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Jrbg posted:You can take multiple explanations, one is that it would be a faux pas somehow and that Gawain is just so chivalric he couldn't possibly impute bad motivations on woman like Lady Bertilak (but then what explains his anti-woman rant at the end of Fitt V) ... the other is that he is himself tempted, and blames her later on for him being tempted. And that his conversations have to navigate a dangerous path in the way that usually when the knight rides forth he navigates, episodically, various dangers like a big boar or something. With regards to Gawain not imputing bad motivations to her, it seems like he correctly intuits her motivations but is he himself constrained by whatever mysterious rules he's playing by to never directly turn her down. Like in lines 1770-1773 the narrator says that she's trying to get him either to say yes, or to loudly refuse her, and that he views either of those as a failure, so he just keeps politely deflecting. Certainly there is a very real sense of danger. I did kind of consider the role of Lord Bertilak, but my probably hilariously anachronistic read on that is he's actually fine with Gawain banging his wife just so long as he himself gets to bang Gawain? He seems exceptionally stoked whenever Gawain kisses him, and given the way he's very intentionally set up the game, I don't think either adultery or gay sex would be taboo to him, especially given his framing as a less Christian, more pagan avatar of nature or, like, whatever. But, then, thinking about SGGK as a period exploration of sex makes me wonder if that's just incredible back-projection and the takeaway from a period reader would be totally different.
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# ¿ Apr 3, 2021 04:28 |