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Die Hard Ace is for people who expect to be under fire a lot, but that build is actually going to be under fire quite a bit so I disagree that it's wasted points. Might be better elsewhere though. There's no shotgun skills so you're not going to be the big damage-soaking thicky of the team, most likely. I do feel like Spotter over Inside Man is a really questionable choice though. Aced Combat Doctor isn't BAD, but I will also that that I very rarely see a successful team that has need of that much healing, even on Death Wish. The Martial Arts point should absolutely be in Cat Burglar though, Cat Burglar is just fantastic. I also think Inspire builds tend to undervalue Combat Medic since the +30% health it gives works with Inspires and as an Inspirer you're going to be doing basically every revive ever. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:22
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Definitely join the goon group. It's the best gaming experience I've had in years, outside of my LPs. Be aware with Ghost: stealth and combat do not really mix together in this game at all. There's pre-alarm, there's post-alarm. That's it. The Ghost tree is kind of schizophrenic in that the lower tiers are INSANELY useful for a lot of people, and like the upper half of the entire tree is mostly bullshit and worthless. I can't think of a single skill on tier 5 that is worth the points you put into them. So be ready to branch into another tree by level 40 or so, in order to not be totally useless when a heist goes hot. e: I went ahead and tagged most of the stuff that isn't lovely as hell in Ghost. http://goo.gl/1RJeVY That will get you to the top tier, at which point you can pick up Camera Loop, which is good in all of one map, if you really really want to. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 06:41
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net cafe scandal posted:Hm, ok, I took out Die Hard, and replaced Martial Arts with Cat Burglar and Spotter with Inside Man aced. Leaves me 4 points that I'm probably gonna use for some of the stuff suggested by you, the dangerous and powerful outlaws. Looking at the trees, there's some other stuff that looks interesting to me: Aced cat burglar, with the super fall protection and halved custody time, seems pretty good to me. Also, SMG specialist, because I like using single shot primaries and SMGs are a nice offhand for that. Anyone have any thoughts on these? SMG Specialist loving rules and is a bargain, for how good it makes an entire handful of weapons that are in both the primary and secondary slots I'm amazed it isn't a 4/8 skill. Cat Burglar Ace is pretty good, I wouldn't gush over it but having armor-only falls is situationally useful. The half custody time is worthless, as you should not be going into custody that often. Darwinism posted:The biggest problem with them is they're too niche - there are very few missions where C4 or a saw aren't preferable. This exactly. There are only a few missions where ECM Overdrive is useful, and lockpicking skills are only useful on the one map that has been explicitly designed to cater to it, and that map is so unrewarding that barely anyone ever plays it. If they were 1/3 skills I could see the argument for them, but as 4/8 skills they are mammothly overpriced. Truthfully for as relatively small a part as stealth plays in this game, I would really expect the 4/8 skills to be something as universally useful as 'civilians and guards must now fill up 2 detected bars to actually see you'. With an ace of 'now cameras have to do that too.' Coolguye fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 07:17
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Party Plane Jones posted:No, I mean, when was the whole sentry thing added for Payday 1 for that map? I literally never saw anybody do that and I played that map a dozen or so times. It was in the No Mercy DLC map that OKS did in cooperation with Valve. You actually heist Mercy Hospital, and it's heavily implied that the Payday crew was responsible for the Green Flu outbreak in Left 4 Dead. However, it only shows when you successfully stealth the place. At one point, Bain gives you dummy sentries to keep people down while you switch into scrubs. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 07:29
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net cafe scandal posted:Alright, with the remaining 4 points I grabbed SMG Specialist and Aced Shinobi. Cleaner, no, because I have friends who will probably spec further into Ghost. Die Hard, no, because SMGs seem pretty versatile and I don't like the idea of firing off sniper rifles or whatever while I'm bleeding out on the floor. And Combat Medic, no, because, well, it seems bad. Cleaner Basic's good, Cleaner ace is a waste imo, Die Hard basic can be nice though. Firing off a Thanatos to punk a Bulldozer or Shield that's gloating over your corpse is fantastic. That said, not a huge thing, probably not a terrible loss if you ever get it. Combat Medic is definitely the weakest of all the bottom tier Mastermind skills and is fantastic if you have Aced Inspire. Just...not before that.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:43
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Tulip posted:ECM overdrive trivializes several frustrating RNG factors on stealthing a number of maps. Lockpicking helped with stealthing Night Club, which didn't really need to be easier, and it doesn't take up any equipment slots. But it does take up pretty valuable "using guns" time. Situational Awareness Basic: all guards and cameras within 5 meters of you will be auto-spotted during inflitration mode. Ace: 15 meters. It still suffers from the problem of after an alarm goes off, that's 12 skill points you will never use again, but at least that skill will actually help you not have an alarm go off by making turning a corner at the exact wrong time a thing of the past. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 08:36
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Philosopher King posted:So is there any comment on possible updates to the stealth system? I though the general flavor was that you typically did things to make your game more fun for the general playerbase? Was the old system really in need of tweaking? As someone who has played literally 2 hours of this game is there any way to explain how the old system was so that I understand why everyone is upset? Your question's a little confusing but here we go: The stealth system hasn't undergone too many huge changes through this game, which is fine because it generally works quite well. You have to take lighter armor and weapons to make yourself less conspicuous, and the less conspicuous you are the slower the 'detected' circles will fill up when a guard/camera/civvie is looking at you. You also generally need to suppress your weapons for sneaky work, which generally lowers their damage. The thing is, stealth is very all or nothing on a lot of maps. Either you pull off the stealth maneuver and you get out without barely firing a shot, or you blow it, you go loud, and now you have 10 minutes of manshooting while plan B completes and you have no armor, lovely weapons, and probably ECMs, which are practically useless after a heist has gone loud. Combine this with a relative lack of ghost skills that actually make it less likely you will be detected by the things that blow your stealth run most often (guards and cameras) and most goons don't see the point in trying to keep a lot of heists quiet. There are a couple of maps like Firestarter Day 2 which can be well designed in that if you get halfway through Plan A and blow it, it gives you a Plan B benefit, but they are the exception, not the rule. Unless you are comparing it to Payday 1, in which case it's an apples to oranges comparison as PD1 didn't even really have a fully realized stealth system. You could keep one or two heists quieter for a while if you were really careful, but eventually everything was going loud and things like armor upgrades were given to you for free for leveling, so that barely even mattered anyway. As far as why people keep whining 'fix the stealth system' in OKS posts, my only thought is that they could want skills in Ghost that actually make stealthing easier. Beyond that, you've got me what the gently caress they're blubbering about. Crabtree posted:Mastermind and Ghost were the primary forces involved in early Stealth. Ghost had the jammer and Shinobi while the Mastermind could answer 4 pagers and could shout down one guard without triggering a call. Even without ghost skills though, the Dominator skill allowed people to easily control most jobs without slinking around or worrying about triggering more guards to spawn. It made stealth manageable to more people and was eventually changed because it was making the game too easy for some. That was kind of wonky, but it's important to note that Dominator was always super, super unreliable in stealth. Even a sunglasses at night guard would resist it pretty often, and if he fired his gun and alerted everyone else, you WERE going loud. Taking Dominator out of the equation by making the guard's pager go off was a clearly superior solution, not just for the stealth system but for those of us who don't want to rerun a single day until Pubbie Jones's Magic Elixir of Solving works out for him. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 15:52
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Don't tell me not to shoot mans, tell your cops to lie down flat. #yesallcriminals
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Jul 1, 2014 16:55
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Dog Fat Man Chaser posted:I'm pretty sure this stuff was actually part of the store page description pre-launch/shortly after launch (it said you'd be doing cybercrime and kidnapping and poo poo), which is really funny to me that we still don't have it. They've already announced a jailbreak heist coming soon, where players will spring Old Hoxton from a prison transport.
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Jul 1, 2014 18:45
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Crew bonuses don't stack, though, so if you have two guys with Fast Learner Ace in the crew then someone is wasting skill points. Not something to be concerned about if you're not playing with a regular group, but important to note.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:22
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Knives are melee, so they 'replace' your weapon butt. However, knives require charging to have more effect than a pigeon making GBS threads on the cop's sleeve, and that is impractical in a firefight. I'm hoping the baton and/or shovel will not suffer from the same problems, because as it stands getting into a melee with cops is the biggest mistake you could make.
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Jul 1, 2014 20:45
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If it's not the CAR-4 and it's an assault rifle it's going to end up being strictly worse than the CAR-4. Seriously, if you mod that thing for damage it's the best and most effective AR in the game by a wide margin. If you mod it for stealth it ends up more concealable than most pistols. Using a stealth CAR-4 + Crosskill pistol + suit I hit the lower cap on detection without a single point in Chameleon. I don't really know how to say it any more clearly: the instant you are able to buy and mod a CAR-4, buy and mod it.
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Jul 1, 2014 22:24
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Threat also works off differentials more than anything else, as well. I tend to get comments when I play with goons about how many cops I kill and how much punishment I absorb, but that's really just because my threat is through the god damned roof. I roll with a maxed out Loco and a Thanatos in my main if there's no other snipers around to deal with Bulldozers and Shields, so what this amounts to is that regardless of if I'm clearing a room of green SWAT or railing some specials, I'm racking up obscene amounts of threat. I'll take heat off others even if they're not trying to play particularly quiet just because I dare cops to come at me just by EXISTING.ATP_Power posted:How's the M308, that was my go-to in the first game, does it stack up ok to the CAR or should I just save for the R93 if I want to go for a marksman style rife? The M308 was OK before the sniper pack came out, now it is a bad gun looking for a job. It functions basically the same as the sniper rifles but it cannot pierce Shields or efficiently dispose of Bulldozers. If you go into a game with an M308 I won't laugh, but I will definitely ask you what the hell you're thinking. The CAR-4 beats it in every conceivable way as a mid-range weapon.
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Jul 1, 2014 22:38
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You don't really need a tier list because for Overkill difficulty and below, pretty much anything will work if you're comfortable with it and have half an idea of what you're doing with mods. The only weapons I can think of that would really cripple you are the AMCAR assault rifle, which is complete poo poo in every respect, and the M308, which as mentioned before has been obsoleted twice. In Death Wish difficulty you need to pull out all the stops, and there it's CAR-4/sniper rifle/LMG or bust on your primary, and P90/loco or bust on your secondary. End of discussion.
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Jul 1, 2014 22:46
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Not by percentages or whatever. Best thing you could do is just have a LUA hook set up that gives you a fairly reasonable amount of XP (say, 250k) per button press, and then click that every time you're about to complete a big heist. There are LUA hook packages that aren't fully blown trainers - I have one that I just configure with a .yml file to point specific F-keys to specific lua scripts, which then just run every time I hit F8 or whatever. I have control over the lua scripts, so I can basically do whatever I want with it.
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Jul 2, 2014 07:50
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Alkydere posted:That would probably be better than what I suggested. Probably reasonably easy since from what I understand LUA's not that bad of a language.
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Jul 2, 2014 08:18
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Rats doesn't even need a full cook to be super profitable. As long as you get the codes from day 2 you will walk away with a million in spending cash easily.
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Jul 2, 2014 17:28
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Tulip posted:So has anybody used Shockproof in recent days or is it still just bugged garbage? Shockproof Basic is mostly pointless and never seems to trigger. Shockproof Ace does work, and will work at range; if you get tased, spin around to look at the Taser, and hit interact on him and he'll get blown back. But considering that most people do functionally the same thing with what's in their magazine it's still basically garbage. It's another one of those skills that there MIGHT be an argument for if it was a 1/3 skill, but as a 4/8 skill you'd have to be smoking some really good poo poo to think it's a good idea.
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Jul 4, 2014 22:27
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It used to include a tooltip saying that it would backfire like 30% of the time or something. But even then it must just test it once at the beginning of the tase or something, because I rarely if ever see it work.
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Jul 4, 2014 22:40
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isndl posted:
That is still a colossally terrible deal.
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Jul 5, 2014 02:05
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It's 12 points for instant reloads on your LMG.
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Tulip posted:Seriously this is the worst game to talk about in public places, and if American politics moves back to being terrified of video games this one is going to get some grade-A Fox news.
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Jul 6, 2014 07:56
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Shinobi Ace is by no means required. The cry that guards emit when killed without it is not at all loud and only of consequence in a few isolated situations. That said, those isolated situations make a pretty convincing argument for those 3 points if you really like stealth.
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Jul 6, 2014 17:47
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It's possible for a guard to hear the camera room guy on Diamond Store if his buddy happens to be standing in the EXACT right spot, which you would not be able to tell at the time because you're a little busy shooting the guard in front of you. The overall risk is so low however that for that situation specifically I don't think 3 points are worth it. Especially because it's so early on in the map. There are other situations though - guards on bank roof, yeah, that's a good argument. Guards clumped together, another good argument. It goes on.
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Jul 6, 2014 18:14
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To me it's about hedging your bets. The netcode is also perfectly willing to let cops curve bullets around corners at us, or allow tasers to shock us through a cubicle wall because two inches of his head is above it. It doesn't stop people from taking the ICTV or Bulletproof. Hell, both!
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Jul 6, 2014 18:30
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Having your Joker able to walk over and revive you the way an AI is able to would be nice, but the critical thing is that while they were doing this task they would have to have a ton of damage resist. Even tan swat Jokers are currently so fragile that you can't rely on them to hang around too long. This is fine in the context of Jokers since it was kind of silly for a Mastermind to submit the first decent SWAT guy he could find and then have a Crime.net intern for entire assault waves, but the 5 seconds it takes to revive is way more than enough for a Joker to get butchered. Really all you need to make Stockholm Syndrome useful is to give it a respectable range (say 10-15m) and let tied down hostages proc it, possibly in return for undoing their zip ties. At that point it becomes reasonable for a Mastermind to fight near a tied down hostage in order to have an easy way to revive themselves. Self-reviving is already kind of the Mastermind's thing anyway (see Pistol Messiah) so I don't really feel like it's out of character, even if it only gives you 1-2 charges per time out of custody.
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Jul 7, 2014 02:07
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At the end of the day I'm unable to get excited about any of the new shotgun stuff precisely because none of them outperform the Loco conclusively in any major situation and the new ammo types, like people say, just exacerbate one of the primary problems with shotguns. The Striker is good if you don't have the mods for a fully blinged out Loco so that's a potential use, but I still get a ton more 'gently caress Shields/Bulldozers/annoying Tasers' mileage out of a Thanatos so I can't see myself doing anything with the primary shotguns any time soon. I could see a use for them on people who don't have the sniper pack, though; an SMG in a secondary slot (with Ghost bonuses) and a decent shotgun in primary could accomplish the same general task.
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Jul 7, 2014 07:36
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I use a laser instead of an angled sight, which arguably makes them even worse since I don't even need to zoom to ruin some motherfucker's day. I feel like snipers are reasonably well balanced at this point due to the massive delay in using one that makes you super vulnerable to greens and tans up close, so if cops are hanging out together (which they always are) you cannot deal with both threat profiles at once. That said there is definitely nothing better for saying 'gently caress you' than a Thanatos. If I had to pick one thing that's probably overpowered in the current sniper lineup I'd actually harp on the scope. Auto-spotting any special it runs across is insanely useful for loving up Shields, since if they're moving you have to guess where their bodies are. But oh, hey, I just got a free spot for mousing over them and now I know exactly where their center mass is. gently caress you, Shield.
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Jul 7, 2014 07:47
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I actually liked Big Oil a lot the last few times I did it. The heist is very dynamic and fluid, and does a great job of attempting to incorporating everything the engine can do into one heist. The big things are that, yes, Big Oil doesn't necessarily do these things very well, and the payoff for handling such a difficult heist tends to be lowish when you compare it to the relative simplicity of shooting a few hundred mans on Watchdogs.
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Jul 7, 2014 22:18
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You're generally going to get a lot more damage out of noisy damage boosting mods than you are out of suppressing something and then relying on Silent Killer to turn your negative damage into positive damage. If you want to be a quiet sniper, which is legitimately useful since silenced snipers can actually make use of some of the vantage points without immediately dying, you're better off just suppressing something that already rocks some faces without any mods at all. E.g., anything but the Rattlesnake. Also, let's be clear: This kinda janky silencer heavy build is going to be generally less effective than a loud enforcer that can simply look at someone and murder the hell out of him. But if you HAVE one of those loud and proud enforcers rolling with you, you can make his life a hell of a lot easier by butchering cops that he's distracting.
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Jul 8, 2014 06:31
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Literally the entire reason I have silent drilling aced is because it's an investment in my sanity. I actually think there have been more instances where people ask for a noisy drill rather than my silent one. I do not care. 12 points so I don't have to hear that maddening whine is a bargain and a half. Cloakers are less of a pain because I can shoot the bastards.
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Jul 8, 2014 16:00
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They do. Watchdogs does as well, which also gives a fair bit of XP compared to what you would normally expect. Basically Hector is the best contact in the game right now.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:10
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Psion posted:I feel like I should run Shadow Raid at some point. who's up for that tonight? unless there's a Big Oil Redux run or something.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:28
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You didn't REALLY think you'd figure out how to cook meth from playing a video game, did you?
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Jul 8, 2014 21:06
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SirDrinksAlot posted:That's me though, honestly I've never needed silent drilling but that's just because of my play style.
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Jul 9, 2014 06:38
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maketakunai posted:Since I totally love situationally useful stuff, here's something you can do: AP rounds work in the silenced locomotive in stealth, so you can silently shoot guards (or civilians) through walls! This includes the cameraman, although, of course, you still need to answer the pager.
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Jul 10, 2014 22:45
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If you're shooting someone who's alerted to you/something suspicious (saw a corpse or they're dialing the police), you'll know exactly where to aim by the ! or [!] through the wall. Could be a good addition to a stealth-only Loco because, well, why not? Are you going to fire more than 15 times in a stealth run anyways?
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Gilg posted:Could it conceivably help in "stealthing" Firestarter Day 1? Killing random gang members through the hangar walls? Just spit-balling, I've never been able to come close to stealthing that and I don't have the shotgun DLC. 'Stealth' Firestarter Day 1 is easiest with a silenced Rattlesnake or something anyway, if you're patient enough you can knock out a ton of gangsters in a couple shots just because they're standing too close to eachother.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:16
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If you have to drop a drill on a door you can't shoot it open. The evidence locker door he's referring to is the wooden one that opens up into the lockup.
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Jul 10, 2014 23:18
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Is there another step to enabling the higher corpse limit in GoonHud? I just ran a test game and there was sadly no carnage to be found. I installed it and I can see the corpse limit setting in Options, but it appears to have had no real effect.
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Jul 11, 2014 07:28
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How useful or unuseful is a silenced sniper rifle on stealthing Big Oil 1? It strikes me that especially with the number of bikers around, a silenced Rattlesnake could knock out half of a floor in only a couple of shots. Or is this more of a situation where if you even see a red '!', you're hosed?
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Jul 12, 2014 01:56
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JetGrind posted:I think I've found the only drawback to GoonHUD as of right now, and that's that sometimes shields don't fall all the way down, and will still stop bullets if they're lodged in the middle of a doorway, even though you can go through them. It's not a huge deal, but it's kind of a pain in the rear end when you're shooting a dude on Rats and then whoops, he backed up behind a corpse shield. I'm curious: can you use these things as cover? It seems like it would be kind of interesting if a shield blocked a door, and all of a sudden you could stand in the doorway, phasing in and out of the shield to take potshots at the cops. Since you can't shoot through them it seems like it would make sense, but I am not sure how that would actually work out in practice.
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Jul 14, 2014 08:02
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