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Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


Centerfire target pistols have been my shooting interest for years and recently I've inadvertently become a collector of target pistols. However, it's really hard to get any objective information about rare or expensive pistols and near impossible to get a chance to handle or shoot one. So frequently I'm having to spend money blindly hoping that it'll be something I like. I've found the advice of other target pistol collectors especially LifeSizePotato invaluable.

A while back bac1023 posted an outstanding review of non-1911 top of the line range pistols in GlockTalk as well as a 1911 buyers guide elsewhere.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1210523
It's been a while since bac1023 updated his thread and I wanted to create a thread here for providing my subjective thoughts on a number of centerfire target pistols. This initial post will focus on trigger quality and in the future I'll focus on mechanical and practical accuracy. I hope others are willing to share their input as well on target pistols that they may own as well. These are just my subjective opinions based on owning a sample of one each so take my opinions with a grain of salt.

The choice in pistols is driven by the purpose for which you are buying it. For competition whether action pistol or bullseye or steel, the rules will dictate what you might run if you want to be competitive. Let's assume for now you're only buying to target shoot non-competitively.


P210 Legend Super Target.
First, the fit and finish are incredible. Also, the slide and dustcover are impossibly thin heightwise compared to any other centerfire semiauto pistol I've handled. Like my other pistol with the slide inside the rails the Pardini, the slide doesn't give you much to hold on to so the rear serrations are critical.

The trigger is outstanding and is also a bit disappointing. How are those two sentiments compatible? Well, it is an objectively outstanding trigger but I have some incredible triggers on many of my other pistols and I was hoping that the Super Target might be the best of all. Unfortunately it is great but not as good as the ones on the Pardini or the K38.

The trigger feels super light. It feels even lighter than the 2.6 lb trigger of my X5. I haven't used the Lyman on it so I don't have hard numbers. My guess is 2.2 to 2.5 lbs. There is a smooth short take up but the take up is not gritty but a bit squishy. Because of the squishy takeup and the very light break, the wall between the take up and the break is super easy to accidentally pull past. I mistakenly thought that it was a single stage rolling trigger the first few dry fires because I accidentally pulled right past the second stage. Once you get used to it you can stage right at the wall.

The break feels super light because of the very small difference in the force needed for take up and the force needed to break the shot. For example, if you have 2 pistols with 3.5 lbs triggers and one requires a 0.5 lb take up with a 3 lb additional force to break the shot, this will feel heavier than a pistol with a 2 lb take up with 1.5 lbs additional to break the shot.

The break is crisp and the trigger travel after the wall is about 1.5 mm which includes about 0.5 mm overtravel. This is disappointing because I was hoping for 1mm or less travel. My Pardini is closer to 0.3mm in travel. I need to find a way to dial out that overtravel. I know that the later P210 have a provision for an internal overtravel stop so hopefully I can get that trigger travel to less than 1mm.

The reset is surprisingly long. Of course the total trigger travel and reset is not that long at all but the reset isn't nearly as short as the 2mm reset of the X5 or the 1mm of my H&K P9S Sport Group III .45. This was surprising to me because the P210 is SAO and I figured that reset would be shorter. This shouldn't make much of a difference in slow fire.

Test target is a 5 shot 1.3 inch group at 25 meters. Please note that the modern Legends are shot by hand resting on a stand at 25m. The old Swiss P210 were shot for 5-10 shots at 50m but in a machine rest so the targets are not directly comparable.


X5 Classic
The X5 is single action only so it has a 1911 style safety and no decocker. The trigger pull is adjustable for trigger weight, overtravel and trigger position/reach. Weight can be adjusted from 2.25 to 3.6 lbs. I have mine set to 2.6 lbs on my Lyman pull gauge. Overtravel stop can be adjusted in a range of about 2.3mm. I dialed out almost all the overtravel except for a tiny bit I deliberately left in. Trigger position can be adjusted back and forth about 10mm. I pulled mine back about 6-7mm or so. As set up now, my trigger has about 3-4 mm of take up and a crisp break of just under 1 mm at 2.6 lbs and a reset of 2 mm.

The test target is 5 shots at 25m with 4 shots going into a group that is 0.39 inches center to center and the 5th flyer making the group exactly 1 inch center to center.

Fit and finish are great. The entire thing feel precision machined like scientific instrumentation. The Nills grip feel fantastic. I liked look of the wood grips but was wondering if I should change the grips for the G10 ones but after holding the pistol, I am definitely keeping the wood Nills on. Obviously the P210 has a smaller more ergonomic grip as a single stack but the X5 is not bad at all.

The controls are perfectly placed for me. My only reservation is that the mag release is a little small. I might replace it with the extended mag release of the X5 Match/Supermatch. The pistol is heavy but that's perfect for a target pistol.

Styling is sharp and angular compared to other Sigs.


Pardini GT45-II with 5" barrel and 9mm Slide
The grip is big and blocky as a 2 by 4 but gun feels great in my hand. The grip angle is a European grip angle and is more extreme than it looks in pictures. The slide is hard to grip since it rides in the frame there is not as much to grab. I keep bumping my hand on the huge safety every time I rack the slide so I use the front serrations to rack it. Racking the slide feels incredibly smooth. Do not use the rear sight to help rack the slide. The adjustable rear sight is not as robust as the ones one say my USP Tactical. Also, the hammer doesn't cock if you rack the slide while the safety is on.

The trigger is mind blowing. The second stage break has basically NO movement. It's better than any of the high end 1911's I've tried. Ed Brown, Wilson etc. have nothing on this break. The reset is a bit longer than a 1911 or my S&W 845. The trigger pull is fully adjustable. Both length and weight of the second stage can be adjusted. Overtravel can also be adjusted. There are also technician only adjustments for overall trigger travel and sear engagement. I have it set to 2.2 lbs (with 1 lb 15 oz take up and 4 oz break). Trigger travel to break after take up is less than 0.3mm! Reset is 3mm.

This Pardini is extremely susceptible to limp wristing. When I first got it it would routinely misfeed using a light offhand grip the way I do on my .22 bullseye pistols. I thought it was just a break in period but I figured I'd try gripping harder and the feed problem totally disappeared and the Pardini now feeds everything. I have never limpwristed since I first started shooting decades ago so I was surprised at how sensitive the Pardini was to a light grip.


H&K P9S Target 9mm
The P9/P9S series was the pinnacle of the H&K target pistols. The pistol was designed as a combat pistol with hybrid polymer and metal frame and an unusual roller delay mechanism and fixed barrel. The fixed barrel made for both an excellent suppressor host and exceptional accuracy and a handful made it into the inventory of the SEAL teams as a silenced pistol.

There are a number of different P9S models but the major ones are the standard P9S also commonly called the P9S Combat, the P9S Sport and the P9S Target. All came in .45 and 9mm. The .45 models (~8.462 made) are rarer than the 9mm models (~41,372 made). There is also the SAO predecessor P9 that is very rare (485 production models made in 9mm).

The standard P9S is sometimes called the P9S Combat and is a DA/SA pistol with 4" barrel, fixed sights, non-adjustable trigger and a plastic grip. Very early models are blued but most are matte phosphate finished.

The P9S Target has a tall front sight paired with an adjustable target rear sight, an adjustable swing up overtravel stop (use of the overtravel stop makes the gun effectively SAO), an adjustable trigger (adjusts only for sear engagement). In theory the adjustment screw only adjusts sear engagement and changes crispnes of the trigger pull but in reality the screw changes both trigger weight and crispness. The target model has the standard 4" barrel and is SA/DA.

This example pictured here is my 9mm P9S Target. The SA trigger pull is 2.5 lbs (0.9 lb take up and 1.6 lb break). The take up is effortless and light and the trigger break is extremely crisp with no overtravel. The trigger break travel is around 1mm and the reset is 4mm.


H&K P9S Sport Group III .45

This is my .45 cal P9S Sport Group III.


The P9S Sport came in Sport Group I, Sport Group II and Sport Group III. This is almost the same as the Target. It has the target sights, overtravel stop and adjustable target trigger of the target model but came with a Nills made ergonomic target grip as well as the regular plastic grip and with a 5.5 inch barrel with a weight on the end.

The Sport Group I was based on the original SAO P9 so you'll never see one.
The Sport Group II only came with the one 5.5" barrel with the weight.
The early Sport Group III came with one slide and a 4" standard barrel and the 5.5" extended barrel with the weight on it. The front sight is on the slide.
Later Sport Group III came with 2 slides: one was the standard 4" barrel slide with fixed sights and the second was the slide with the 5.5" barrel, the barrel weight and adjustable sights. The front sight is on the barrel weight of these later SGIII models.

I have only ever seen 8 P9S Sport Group III in .45 online. There is one very rare Sport Group model of which I have only ever known of 3. This model comes with 2 slides both with 5.5" barrels and barrel weights. One slide is .45 and one is 9mm and it comes with 4 magazines. 2 .45 and 2 9mm.

The adjustable trigger of the 9mm and .45 models are slightly different. The .45 has a shorter reset and the 9mm a lighter trigger.

My P9S SG III has a SA trigger pull of 3.8 lbs and the trigger pull and reset are each less than 1mm. The break is extremely crisp and the trigger resets right back at the "wall" of the second stage resulting in a less than 1mm reset.

Test target pictured is around 1.1 inch center to center at 25 meters



H&K USP Expert 9mm

The USP Expert is becoming my favorite USP supplanting my USP 45 Tactical. I'm loving the long sight radius and the best trigger break for a USP. Trigger travel to break the trigger after take up is noticeably less than 1 mm. It is around 0.7 mm or so. Not the insane sub-0.3 mm break of my Pardini but still very nice. I have to run the Expert and Tactical side by side to see which I am more accurate with though. The reset is somewhere between 5-6mm and the SA trigger travel while short breaks at 4.4 lbs.



S&W 845 .45
This is my now sold S&W 845, one of the first handguns out of the S&W Performance Center and its development and manufacture was overseen by Paul Liebenberg. It is a single action only, 8 round, single stack .45 target pistol. It has a Briley spherical barrel bushing to assist with tight barrel lock up. It succeeded the 745, which was an IPSC gun and was succeeded by the 1911 look alike 945. The 845 is considered one of the finest S&W semiautos and is considered by many to be a .45 cal version of the 9mm 952 which itself was a successor to the legendary .38 special mid range wadcutter only Model 52.

The 845 was in development for 10 years and was only built in batches from 1995-1998. It was first sold as a Lew Horton special order in 1995 (serial numbers begin with MPC) and a second Lew Horton batch was built in 1998 (serial numbers begin with SDN). Mine is one of the 1995 models. I love that there is no model marking on the slide and very minimal other writing. The second batch built in 1998 is marked with a huge 845 Model of 1998 on the slide and has front slide serrations but I hate the huge roll mark on those. I believe there were between 300-500 of the 1995 models made and about 150 of the 1998 models. In addition Wischo Limited, a German distributor, ordered a batch of M845 variants sold as the .45 Target Champion (serial numbers begin with WPC). I believe less than 1000 of all types were ever built.

Despite it's rarity, there are still many accessories for it since it shares the S&W 4506 3rd gen size and shape though technically I think it is a 2nd gen. 645, 745 and 4506 magazines work and 4506 grips work. Nills actually make grips specifically for the 845/.45 Target Champion as well. As far as carry goes, 4506/1006 holsters should work; however, S&W advises in its manual that the 845 should never be carried with a round in the chamber as it has no firing pin block.

Also unlike the 952 and the PPC models, the 845 has far less of a collector following so the pricing is not quite up to 952 numbers yet.

The S&W 845 has a 3.5 lb SAO trigger pull. I would describe the trigger as more of a super short single stage. There is an incredibly short take up followed by a extremely short travel and a reset point right back and the start of the break. I never measured it precisely but I believe it was around 1.5mm to 2mm for the trigger travel and reset.


Pre-14 K38 Heavy Masterpiece

This is an unfair comparison since the revolver triggers can be so much better than most pistol triggers. This is my Pre-14 K38 Heavy Masterpiece with heavy barrel, target trigger and target grips. It is in outstanding condition. Finish is a high polished deep blue that is 98+% and it has an excellent bore. Single action is wonderfully crisp. Double action is very good but not the best DA revolver I've seen.

The SA pull is 3.5 lbs but feels much much lighter. There is no take up at all and the trigger breaks like glass with a perfect creep-free travel of less than 1mm to the travel stop. The break is perfect.

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right arm
Oct 29, 2011



bookmarked for when I get home cause your pardini is the coolest

Chill Doomhate
Nov 12, 2013

by Shine


Great collection. And goddamn that P9S .45 looks so fun. And that group.

GEEKABALL
May 30, 2011

Throw out your hands!!
Stick out your tush!!
Hands on your hips
Give them a push!!


Fun Shoe

This is what my handgun collection wants to be when it grows up.

Bummey
May 26, 2004

you are a filth wizard, friend only to the grumpig and the rattata


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlNdR5SxLYY

LSP has an X6 too

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


Coincidentally, I actually found the ad for that one for LSP and referred him to it.

Yuns fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 11, 2014

Sixgun Strumpet
Feb 16, 2009

Heh, yeah, 'round here I call myself The Enabler. I suspect pretty much everyone wishes they could be me -- I'm kind of a big deal, you see.


Yuns posted:

This is an unfair comparison since the revolver triggers can be so much better than most pistol triggers. This is my Pre-14 K38 Heavy Masterpiece with heavy barrel, target trigger and target grips. It is in outstanding condition. Finish is a high polished deep blue that is 98+% and it has an excellent bore. Single action is wonderfully crisp. Double action is very good but not the best DA revolver I've seen.

The SA pull is 3.5 lbs but feels much much lighter. There is no take up at all and the trigger breaks like glass with a perfect creep-free travel of less than 1mm to the travel stop. The break is perfect.

These old S&Ws really can ruin a fellow for other triggers can't they?

For the record, I have a pre-model 14, and it is an excellent gun, yet the pre-war versions somehow manage to be better then it. Especially the King modified guns. If you ever get the chance to acquire one of the fine pre-war targets I suspect you would really enjoy them. A .38/44 Outdoorsman in particular may be worth keeping an eye out for, or a Registered Magnum, but there you are into some serious money.

Excellent collection. If I had more money I would love to own each and every gun on there. I do expect I will be deep in the old S&W target pistols for many years to come however. If I ever do look up from what I have been at a P210 and a Pardini such as yours are certainly on "the list".


Yuns posted:

So frequently I'm having to spend money blindly hoping that it'll be something I like.

You are paying for an education. In the long run its surprisingly cheap compared to other educations. I've a whole slew of guns I just earmark as education and move on, even if I lose a little on them they taught me something I couldn't have known any other way.

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


Sixgun Strumpet posted:

These old S&Ws really can ruin a fellow for other triggers can't they?

For the record, I have a pre-model 14, and it is an excellent gun, yet the pre-war versions somehow manage to be better then it. Especially the King modified guns. If you ever get the chance to acquire one of the fine pre-war targets I suspect you would really enjoy them. A .38/44 Outdoorsman in particular may be worth keeping an eye out for, or a Registered Magnum, but there you are into some serious money.
I threw in the K38 as a ringer since it does have such a great trigger. I would definitely like to collect more revolvers and am looking to add an early Python, a Registered Magnum or non-Registered one, a non-surplus commercial Manurhin MR73 and a Korth to my collection eventually some day once I collect a few more semiautos. I'll add the pre-war .38/44 Outdoorsman to that list.

Yuns fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jul 12, 2014

Sixgun Strumpet
Feb 16, 2009

Heh, yeah, 'round here I call myself The Enabler. I suspect pretty much everyone wishes they could be me -- I'm kind of a big deal, you see.


The outdoorsman is a bit of a secret the old smith collectors have. It doesn't have modern sights or grips which make it a little harder to shoot in some ways, but S&W payed special attention to them for some reason. They are sort of the poor man's registered magnum in some ways.

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water

I'd love to add to this.

As a quick note, none of these are mine, but we like looking at pictures for a visual reference, so the guns I shot have indeed looked much like these guns.


S&W 952

My first real-deal "target gun," and I did a lot of research. Bizarrely enough, at that time it was available on the CA "approved" handguns list, so it was an appealing choice due to a lack of having to jump through hoops. The Single Shot Exemptions weren't really a thing then, and not many places were doing it, so I was limited to what I could find on consignment or what I could order off the list. This won out over the Sig X5 and other 1911s.

The 952's dimensions fit me just about perfectly. I've never liked putting my thumbs up high on a 1911 because of the reciprocating slide there, and because resting my thumb on the teensy little piece of the slide stop didn't seem comfortable. I also (at that time) wasn't terribly partial to the .45 round, so 9mm being cheaper and softer shooting was a double bonus that made a lot of sense. With the 952, I pick it up and it's comfortable, straight up. No shifting, no wiggling to get it just right. It just is.

The build quality is outstanding. When I first got it, the slide would stop just before lockup if you eased it forward ever so slowly. The bluing is as good as anything Smith did, I'd say. The gun is tight, and getting the barrel out of the spherical bushing and back into it for the first time felt like working on one of those blacksmith puzzles, but everything fits together just so without too much slop. The trigger might be a little heavier than some other guns I have, but it's crisp as all get out and probably breaks somewhere between 3.5 and 4 pounds. It's definitely not a detriment and hasn't ever gone off when I wasn't expecting it to. Good reset, and not too much overtravel for my liking.

Under recoil, the 952 is extremely pleasant. There's no fatigue on the shooter's end, and everything cycles smoothly. The Wilson sights are easy to pick up and the picture is nice. I eventually added a fiber optic front just because.

I've never benched it, but every miss I've had has been my fault. The only malfunctions I've ever experienced have come from having the gun far, far filthier than it should have been. Probably on the order of 1,000 rounds. If it's even partially wiped down and re-lubed, it chugs along like a champ. Malfunctions are so rare that I basically use it as the gun's way to tell me that it needs to be cleaned. That's happened, probably like 4 or 5 times since owning it since 2005. Thumbs up for sure.


CZ-75 TS
Some might split hairs as to whether this is actually a "target" gun. Comparing the barrel fit and lockup to the 952 or to an X5, you could make the case that it isn't. However, the weight of the gun and the STUPIDLY light (but still crisp) trigger lets it contend in the area of practical accuracy. Like the 952, I never had a miss that I felt I could attribute to the gun.

I bought mine in .40. It came with a series of stupid buffers that caused the gun not to function when installed. According to Angus Hobdell himself, as I gleaned from a few posts of his, leave them out. I've done that for a while and so far to no ill-effect. That said, frame cracking with ultra-hot .40S&W rounds is probably a known thing if those were thrown in there (to the best of my knowledge, they aren't included on the 9mm version), so I play it safe most of the time. The gun did quite like Winchester Ranger JHPs, though! I had a very fun time using them on steel plates out to 50 yards, where they would arrive with a very satisfying clank.

I have smaller hands, and I thought the TS would be gargantuan, but most of the bulk is farther down on the grip. The gun sits comfortably in my hand and distributes recoil pretty evenly across my palm and into the web of my hand. I've never felt the hate for the "whip" of .40S&W, but probably because I have so much experience shooting it through this beast.

I am a little perturbed by the plastic recoil guide rod. The end of it is looking a little bit chewed up through normal operation. Together with the lack of the shock buffs, there's some little voice at the back of my head that's afraid of breaking this thing one day, or just having a chunk of something snap off and jam up the gun. There are steel parts to replace these with if you're so inclined, but I don't really want to spend the time, money, and effort right now to swap all of them out. The trigger I can live with, but one day the plastic guide rod will get sent packing.

So, back to the trigger. It's about 2 loving pounds. I do not take this gun along when newcomers or even beginners come out to shoot with me. Many have been surprised and had the gun go off before they were ready.

For the price, the TS is an amazing value, and even beats some target guns at their own game, but you do see where some compromises were made, and as I said before, I'm a little leery about the long-term durability of the thing. That might be unfounded, but that's the rub. This one goes in the range bag about a fourth of the time as the 952 comes with.


Freedom Arms model something something

83? I think? The smaller framed one.

I was a little underwhelmed by the FA guns until I shot a range buddy's in .45. Great trigger, great balance, great sight picture, and boy howdy did it chew the living poo poo out of the X-ring. Normally I don't tend to shoot a new gun all that well as soon as I pick it up. I tend to need some time to figure out how a gun settles into my hand and how it behaves under recoil. I tend to jerk the trigger a little more, as though my mind forgets temporarily to do the same thing with this new gun that I do with all other guns.

This was different. I had five rounds with it (from what I remember...) and all five of them went dead-nuts where I wanted them to. Handling the gun, you really get a sense of the workmanship. Everything is like a bank vault. There are no rough tooling marks. Every dimension, curve, and angle seems as though it was always that way, without anyone ever having to shape it or do anything. The fit between each part is astounding. It makes even some aspects of my vintage K-22 look sloppy by comparison.

Anyway, though, you certainly pay for that level of workmanship. That buddy loves his, and shoots it almost exclusively bullseye style, where it's as competitive as any gun one could possibly care to name.

Good grip dimensions, too. While SA guns aren't the most modern of the bunch, the bisley grip angle works well for me and makes the Single Action revolver much less strange-feeling in the hand. My pinkie has somewhere to go.

All in all, I will probably own one of these at somepoint in my life. I think the .454s are probably a bit overkill (unless you planned on feeding them a diet of .45 colt), but in .45ACP it was a dream and .38 special would probably just bring tears to your eyes in terms of shootability.

I probably could have begged my friend to let me shoot five more rounds (he would have been more than happy to, I bet), but that first cylinder left me with such a magical feeling and shot such a nice, tidy group that I almost didn't want to ruin it.

right arm
Oct 29, 2011



I bought a stainless guide rod for my TS for looks alone

I love mine a whole loving lot



cz75ts1 by right_arm, on Flickr

wanna shoot that pardini though

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


Thanks for the additions and information hangedman! The 952, CZ and Freedom Arms Model 97 are all very nice target pistols and on my short list of stuff missing from my collection. I am always keeping an eye out for a S&W PPC9, the double stack version of the 952, especially with the 6" barrel. Of all the CZs, the AccuShadow might fit in well with these as well.

If you are ever in NJ, the NYC area or in eastern PA, you're welcome to come try the Pardini out right arm.

mikerock
Oct 29, 2005




Interesting, I will be in NJ next week!

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


If you are in northern or central NJ during the weekend, let me know. The only thing off limits is the Super Target which is still awaiting my one gun a month period to expire for pick up.

right arm
Oct 29, 2011



same goes to you if you're in the PNW (except my guns aren't nearly as cool as your pardini)

I think CZ custom will do barrel bushings for TSs. I may have to do that someday when I quit pissing money away on SBR projects

mikerock
Oct 29, 2005




Yuns posted:

If you are in northern or central NJ during the weekend, let me know. The only thing off limits is the Super Target which is still awaiting my one gun a month period to expire for pick up.

Thanks but we're just on a quick family visit. My in laws are from Gloucester township in Camden county. Need to meet my new nephew and say hi to the in-laws.

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water

I could put a bunch more here in this thread with regards to target pistols and my thoughts on them after handling and shooting quite a few of them, but I don't want to monopolize anything. If you guys are interested, I'll keep adding onto what Yuns has.

Sixgun Strumpet
Feb 16, 2009

Heh, yeah, 'round here I call myself The Enabler. I suspect pretty much everyone wishes they could be me -- I'm kind of a big deal, you see.


hangedman posted:

I could put a bunch more here in this thread with regards to target pistols and my thoughts on them after handling and shooting quite a few of them, but I don't want to monopolize anything. If you guys are interested, I'll keep adding onto what Yuns has.

What? Content? ON MY TFR? Never!

(seriously, this place is starving for more good interesting things said by it's posters, you should really add more.)

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water


Sig/Hammerli 240

By far one of the more exotic guns I've shot in my days. I was downright giddy when a guy offered to let me put a few magazines for this, firstly because these are practically unobtainable, and secondly because it's always kind of goofy to shoot a revolver round (in this case, .38 special) out of a handgun.

The first thing you do notice is the build quality. It's amazing, and easily on par with a p210. Lines are unusual and a little ungainly, but still alluring in a way that you can't put your finger on. Picking it up, the balance of the gun seems to sit just a little bit over and in front of your knuckles. I thought I was going to love this thing.

Thought. The trigger is the first culprit. It's really like a two-stage trigger, with the first being a take up and a slight hitch and the second being... just about nothing. Of the rounds I shot, just about every one scared the poo poo out of me. And again, I'm used to the CZ 75-TS, so it's not just the lightness of the thing, but the fact that I just could not get a sense of the break point. After a while, you begin treating it as just about the lightest double action revolver trigger on earth, and your hits begin to improve a bit at that point.

Under recoil (which is admittedly soft), there's a weird sensation. Because the .38 cases are just a hell of a lot longer than most common handgun rounds, because the recoil spring is so much lighter than usual, and because the slide is so long, you actually become aware of the cycle time. The weight shifts back over the balance point and leisurely comes forward again, causing the front sight to dip. Not really a rapid-fire affair.

The owner tells me that because of so many different factors involved out of shooting .38s through an autoloader, the gun can be extremely picky about what it likes. He worked up a single load for it over a period of a few months and when he found one that worked, that was it. If you get a 240, you're going to need to reload for it.

All in all, I appreciated it, but I certainly didn't like it, nor do I think I'll ever own one.

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water


Pardini GT9

As Yuns said, one of the most immediate things you notice about the Pardini is that the trigger is phenomenal. For my money, I would say that this is bar none the best auto trigger I have yet to try. The shape, weight, break point, and lack of appreciable overtravel are all just about perfectly designed. Other perks: the sight picture is wonderfully crisp and well-defined, the gun sits extremely low in your hand thanks to the super-high beavertail, and the controls are all large and generous.

Another benefit: the safety was actually designed as a thumbrest (again, looking at you, 1911s). I might be making a mountain out of a molehill, but that "thumbs high" grip people want me to do on a 1911 doesn't give me much degree of comfort because I have this ingrained idea that I shouldn't have my thumb near or around any part of the gun that moves back and forth rapidly under recoil. And because on 1911s, there really isn't a tremendous amount of real estate to ride up there if you do it anyway. That little shelf the Pardini? I feel like I actually have somewhere to put my thumb. And the metal goes up juuuuust enough where I don't need to worry about the slide abrading my thumb or not.

Also, for a gun that uses the "inside the rails" design like the P210, thank you Pardini for actually giving us some real estate on the slide to grip. I forgot to mention that about the CZ-75 TS. Racking the slide by the serrations is a loving joke, so I use the massive, overly big rear sight on the TS as a slide racker. Reading around on the net, I'm certainly not the only person to do so.

What's unfortunate about the Pardini is, like Yuns said, the grip is extremely rectangular.


You can see that here a little bit.

At any rate, I dislike the Pardini under recoil for the same reason I intensely dislike Glocks. Because of the idiosyncracies of my own hand, a shooting grip will leave the knuckle at the base of my thumb (the one inside of the web of my hand) more exposed than usual, and I find that squared off, rectangular grips tend to send the recoil disproportionately into that one part of my hand. Over time, it's hard not to anticipate a shot when it becomes progressively more uncomfortable.

I'd love for the opportunity to shoot a Pardini again, but next time I'll break out a shooting glove that's padded in that area so I can really give it a fair day in court. If you're like me and have experienced the same issue I do with Glocks, I'd say that the Pardini is definitely a "try before you buy" kind of deal.

californiasushi
Jun 6, 2004


hangedman posted:

That buddy loves his, and shoots it almost exclusively bullseye style, where it's as competitive as any gun one could possibly care to name.

i don't know if you're implying that the gun would be competitive in bullseye but if you are i don't think it would. shooting a .45 single action revolver in rapid fire (5 rounds in 10 seconds) would extremely difficult imho.

here's our bullseye wadgun for nra 2700 matches. it looks ugly but i don't care because it works fine for bullseye and was cheaper than a les baer, rra, or some other fancier brand would've been.



it started life as a springfield loaded i bought in college. we sent it into a bullseye smith to get a trigger job (breaks at ~3.5# with a rcbs trigger pull gauge) and a kart nm super match barrel, kart bushing, rail, ultradot, and 10# recoil spring fitted and installed. the work cost about $800 a few years ago. these days you can just get a springfield armory range officer and some parts installed for a competent wadgun at a better price. our gun should be able to hold the x ring (~1.7" at 50 yards) but to be honest neither my wife nor i can group that well rested so we'll have to trust our bullseye smith about its mechanical accuracy. it's made to exclusively shoot swc's so firing a lot of factory 230gr fmj wouldn't be good for it. shooting it with the red dot and the softer/accurate loads is really fun. there is a lot of offset between the red dot and the bore so shooting on the move with it would be difficult without practice but for "square range" shooting it's great. ergonomically it's basically just like any other 1911 with a little more weight.

since the cz ts was mentioned i figured i might as well mention our sti edge 2011 in 9mm. it's for 3gun and precision rifle matches.



for me the functional differences between the 2011 and the 1911 is the width of the grip, the capacity, and the polymer grip (with a steel frame). because the 2011 is double stack the grip is a bit wider (but still not too big at all) and the capacity is greater. the factory 140mm magazines hold 20 rounds of 9mm. with a change of the basepads and internals the capacity should get to 23 reloadable. i haven't yet upgraded my mags yet though. also since the gun has a polymer grip it's really easy to do things like double undercut the trigger guard, which ours has had done. it lets you get higher up on the grip and between that and the increased weight from the full length dust cover and bull barrel on the edge, 9mm felt recoil is pretty much as light as it gets. the gun has a ~2# trigger and an extended magazine release which really make it a sweet competition gun imo. however because of the weight and the extended magazine release if you rest it on the side with the mag release the mag release might accidentally get tripped and the magazine wouldn't be fully seated. not a huge deal and pretty easy to work around i think. also the platform has been known for the slide safety disengaging accidentally upon grounding but you can always fully clear your gun prior to grounding, get a single side safety and ground the pistol on the opposite side, or just be careful while grounding. another knock on 2011s is the reliability but ours has been very reliable. at a match early this year we got a little mud in the chamber area and it still worked fine. ours is pretty much factory though and we haven't pushed the envelope of performance with slide lightening cuts and spring/guide rod tuning. i also can't comment on the mechanical accuracy of this gun either since we're the limiting factors but it's been great at matches so far. it's my favorite pistol thus far

Chill Doomhate
Nov 12, 2013

by Shine



That looks fun as hell. I love my Loaded as is so I think I would follow your advice and do it to an RO. How's the scope rail?

californiasushi
Jun 6, 2004


ChillRoommates posted:

That looks fun as hell. I love my Loaded as is so I think I would follow your advice and do it to an RO. How's the scope rail?

i like the clark rail but it's pretty much as basic as slide mounts go. i definitely needed a gunsmith to install it since it's way beyond what i have tools for/am comfortable doing. we really have no complaints about either the rail itself or slide mounts in general but there certainly are plenty of bullseye shooters who prefer other dots/rails/mount setups so it's definitely worth looking into other setups as well. i'm not 100% up to date on all the different mounts and options since i primarily compete in other shooting sports but bullseyeforum.net and the bullseye-l google group are great resources for bullseye shooting/guns/gear if you're not familiar with them already. one option that looked neat but might not be in stock is the rra with built-in irons for greater versatility. it's just really expensive: http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=519

DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



Now this is a loving thread

I've wanted to try a pardini for years

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


Thanks to hangedman and californiasushi for the additional contributions. It's great getting first hand reviews of some nice less common stuff.

Chill Doomhate
Nov 12, 2013

by Shine



Wow, I didn't know that existed. That's pretty neat, thanks.

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water

californiasushi posted:

i don't know if you're implying that the gun would be competitive in bullseye but if you are i don't think it would. shooting a .45 single action revolver in rapid fire (5 rounds in 10 seconds) would extremely difficult imho.

Perhaps it wouldn't be. I do know that the owner of said gun is a bullseye competitor and was working up a number of loads for it, and he usually fires it one-handed at a target placed at our range's backstop. I had assumed it was like his P240 or custom shop Springer 1911 (both of which he has competed with, according to what he's told me), but looking back it was probably him just shooting in the manner he usually does out of habit. Re-reading my post, I really meant to use "competitive" as synonymous with "as accurate as his other bullseye pistols, if not more so." Mea culpa.

The one-handed thing is a dealbreaker for me really getting interested in formal Bullseye competition or learning more about it. Also, it sounds like you have to run the same gun for all stages, yeah?

hangedman fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Jul 13, 2014

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


For a 2700, you need a .22, a .45 and one more centerfire pistol of any caliber such as .32 using the same gun for each of the relevant stages. I shot collegiate standard pistol so I am used to competitive one handed shooting.

Yuns fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jul 13, 2014

californiasushi
Jun 6, 2004


hangedman posted:

Perhaps it wouldn't be. I do know that the owner of said gun is a bullseye competitor and was working up a number of loads for it, and he usually fires it one-handed at a target placed at our range's backstop. I had assumed it was like his P240 or custom shop Springer 1911 (both of which he has competed with, according to what he's told me), but looking back it was probably him just shooting in the manner he usually does out of habit. Re-reading my post, I really meant to use "competitive" as synonymous with "as accurate as his other bullseye pistols, if not more so." Mea culpa.

The one-handed thing is a dealbreaker for me really getting interested in formal Bullseye competition or learning more about it. Also, it sounds like you have to run the same gun for all stages, yeah?

fair enough, it was just me misunderstanding what you were saying.

there have actually been a fair amount of rule changes going on in bullseye lately so it might be worth explaining a bit (sorry for the derail yuns). there's basically two types of bullseye: cmp and nra bullseye. cmp matches require a service pistol (beretta m9 or m1911 with iron sights). nra matches have 3 stages of fire: .22, centerfire (.32 cal or greater), and .45. each stage has 90 shots and is worth 900 points each (maximum point value of 10 per shot), for an aggregate total of 2700 points. for the most part people will shoot the same 1911 for both the centerfire and .45 stages since one gun is cheaper than two and so they don't need to master two different types of guns for centerfire/.45. however for centerfire people can and do shoot 9mm or .38 super 1911's or even other more exotic guns in those calibers or even .32 s&w. it's up to the shooter but a lot of people don't feel like it's worth the extra time/cost. for the .22 stage people sometimes shoot a 1911 with a marvel .22 conversion slide for the ultimate in familiarity between their .22 and the 1911 they use for centerfire and .45. however you see all kinds of domestic/european .22's on the firing line. a lot of rugers/buckmarks, accurized or not, and a lot of european guns. a couple years ago i shot a match next to a marine from the big usmc team and he was using a hammerli 208s. it looked super sweet. there's no restriction there. so at nra matches people generally shooting at least 2 guns usually and sometimes even 3.

prior to this year nra matches used to be basically one huge open class, like tactical rifle matches. almost everybody shot with red dots. now there's production, metallic (iron sights only), and open (red dots). there's some other more technical rule changes here if you cared (http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rules/rul_conv_pistol_14.pdf). so you can use 3 different production guns if you want, as long as one is a centerfire gun, one is a .45, and one is a .22. or 3 metallic sight or 3 open guns. before you technically couldn't use the same gun since you needed a .22 and a .45 at the very least but another new rule change is that you can actually shoot a .22 for a .22 only 2700 aggregate since .22 guns are cheaper and cheaper to shoot. now you can shoot the same gun for all the stages if you want. these rules are all basically designed to make the sport more accessible since it was rather expensive before.

about the two-handed vs. one-handed shooting. there was actually also a rule (#24) regarding that (http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t1226p50-nra-pistol-comiittee) but it has been in flux. basically last year you could shoot at 25 yards with two-hands and be classified up to expert (marksman -> sharpshooter -> expert -> master -> high master) in a probationary match. you just wouldn't be eligible for records. however late last year they were trying to amend it to be that the highest classification you could earn is sharpshooter shooting two-handed and eliminated the 25y maximum distance. i don't know where that stands now and rule 24 might be removed entirely. but as it stands now, afaik, you can shoot two-handed if you want. this was also added to make the sport more accessible.

more generally, i don't think one-handed shooting is that bad. you still need to be familiar with and execute the shooting fundamentals. it's a sport not real life practical shooting. it's not just bullseye however that makes you shoot one-handed. most of the international pistol events makes you shoot one-handed as well. i don't think you need to be hardcore about shooting one-handed exclusively but i definitely think there are benefits that cross over from one-handed pistol shooting to two-handed pistol shooting. imho it makes you a more well-rounded shooter, more tools in the tool box so to speak (just like i personally feel that shooting coat/sling shooting is good cross-training for tactical rifle matches and vice versa). ymmv

californiasushi fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Jul 13, 2014

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water

Thanks for the information, Sushi. Maybe I'll push myself a little more regarding the distance I shoot at. I'll also see how my P220 (and the bozo holding it) fares at longer ranges for the .45 component. Incidentally, I do practice one-handed shooting just for shits and giggles, but my skill set there isn't quite at the point where I'd want to test it under time or pressure.

Anyway, adding on:


Sig X5 / X6 Lightweight

Combining two guns into one here.

Of the guns I don't own, I've gotten more trigger time with the X5 than just about any other platform. Quite a few people I know have one, I've rented one from a local range a handful of times, and I have vacillated on purchasing one for a long time. This was probably the biggest contender to my purchase of the 952.

Anyway, I'd argue one of the virtues of the Sig is that it's almost perfectly balanced in the 5" version. The generous amount of stainless steel in the frame and slide works as a recoil sponge, and not even 9mm 1911s (or a 952 for that matter) shoots this softly. I've always been partial to the 226 because there's really only one way for me to pick it up. Even with the non E2, "fat" butt people criticize it for, I never feel like it shifts in my hand or that I get an inconsistent grip, and the pad of my finger rests perfectly on the face of the trigger.

For that reason, even when I know a shot is sloppy, the X5 (and the 226 for that matter) makes me look like a better shooter than I am. Like the 952 and most high-end 1911s, I have no doubt that the mechanical accuracy of the gun far exceeds anything that I would ever be capable of. Most of the test targets supplied with the X5 tell you quite a bit about what they can do when benched. I haven't tried the L1 trigger, but the 4# break of the X5 competition hasn't been a detriment for me. I'm finding as I shoot more that a light trigger can be a dream under certain conditions, but I'm most comfortable with something right around 4#, give or take a half-pound. The 952 is a little lighter, but has the same degree of crispness.

So the big question is this: why don't I have one of these?

Two big reasons. First, price. It's hard for me to source a new one at any less than $1750, and tax typically pushes it into the $1900+ range. In comparison, I sourced my 952 used at $1300 or thereabouts. So why not a used X5? I didn't want to deal with the possibility of running into the widely-known extractor issues with the 9mm versions.

People tend to buy an X5 because they're shooters and know what they're getting. They're also going to put some pretty high round counts on the gun. I've talked to three different owners, and all three said that their extractors started going at about 1500 rounds, producing a number of malfunctions. Apparently Grayguns developed a fix for the problem, and it had something to do with the X5 in 9mm switching from an external to an internal extractor. Some argue the problem was overblown, but the guys at the Enos forum seem to think it's pretty common, and the guys who actually owned them certainly had a hard time buying that their FTFs / FTEs were just an imaginary thing.


Bonus gun: Sig X6 Lightweight

Well, it's gorgeous, for one thing, and shares the same X5 pedigree.

However! I found after shooting one that with the alloy frame, the platform becomes pretty top-heavy, especially with a 6" slide. The recoil impulse, while not really obnoxious and still softer than most polymer or duty wondernines, loses that "oh, wow" quality that the regular X5s have. I also do like the way that longslide guns look, but I know I'm not a skilled enough shooter to take full advantage of the extra bit of slide radius. I thought the X6 Lightweight would be the definitive version of the X-series guns, but I vastly preferred the standard Competition version.

mikerock
Oct 29, 2005




The SIG X5 I shot had the nicest pistol on a trigger I have ever used. My friend's Hammerli .22 was nothing but frustration for him.

Itchy_Grundle
Feb 22, 2003





(Sorry about the crappy iPhone picture)

This is what I use for 50 yard Bullseye. It started as a basic Essex 1911 in .45 that would feed anything but couldn't hit anything.

About 10 years ago I sent it to be rebuilt by Mountain Competition Pistols. New slide, barrel, bushing, link, all trigger internals were replaced and the whole thing fitted together. They also installed a rail system between the slide and frame so that there is really no play at all between them. I wouldn't be surprised if the frame were the only original part. It's far more accurate than I am and really great to shoot. I'm glad I had it done when I was able to.

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


Will it still feed anything or do you have it set up as a pure wadgun?

Itchy_Grundle
Feb 22, 2003



Yuns posted:

Will it still feed anything or do you have it set up as a pure wadgun?

It's very tight, so it's also very picky. It can still feed 230gr ball, but not as reliably as the 185gr SJWC. I also keep it sprung for the lighter load. As a result I only shoot handloads through it.

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


Bumping for a range report update: Sig Sauer P210 Legend Super Target vs Sig Sauer X5 Classic 9mm vs H&K USP Expert 9mm



My Sig Sauer P210 Legend Super Target has been waiting for me at my local FFL for quite a while since my state limits handgun purchases to one a month. I finally got the chance to pick it up today and took it straight to the range to run it alongside my Sig Sauer X5 Classic and USP Expert for a few hundred rounds. I did not clean or lube the Super Target before shooting and it still had the storage grease on it.

I did not sand bag, rest or otherwise bench these pistols. All shooting was done standing with two hands and no form of support. Because of the crowds at the range, I was stuck on the 50 foot range (16.6 yds) instead of the normal 25 yard range so I used a NRA Slow Fire B-2 target which has a black circle of about 3 inches in diameter and outer 4 circle of about 7.3 inches. I shot a 10 shot group on one target then a ten shot group on another target then switched pistols and did another 10 and 10, rotating through the pistols until I was out of ammo. I used factory 124 gr PMC FMJ.

All 3 pistols were great to shoot and I don't regret any of the purchases but I did have some observations.

Trigger

I had estimated that the Super Target trigger was sub-2.6 lbs but it turns out I was wrong. On the Lyman, it is closer to 3.4 lbs. The take up is a bit heavy at 2.3 lbs to the wall so when it breaks it does so with about 1.1 lbs additional pressure creating the perception that it is much much lighter than it actually is.

My favorite trigger of the 3 was the X5 Classic by far. The second was likely the Expert. I like that crisp short break with no overtravel better than the break of the Super Target. However the pull weight is highest. The vast majority of people will prefer the Super Target to the Expert but I was put off by the Super Target overtravel. The last was the Super Target because of a bit of overtravel, a long reset and the squishy take up. I will be adjusting the overtravel screw to take out the overtravel. After that, I will probably prefer it to the Expert.

So trigger was for most people X5>Super Target>Expert but for me X5>Expert>Super Target

Practical Accuracy

All 3 were plenty accurate. The X5 and Expert were quite comparable on my hands but I felt like I had to focus more on the Expert. With the heavier pull it was easier to jerk the trigger whereas the 2.6 lb break of the X5 was less susceptible to that. It was easier to get flyers or pull low left with the H&K. But with focus, both would put their rounds where I wanted them in similar size groups with the advantage going to the X5.

The stand out was by far the Super Target. I haven't run it against my Pardini GT45 or my H&K P9S Sport Group III yet but it is at least as accurate and may be more accurate. It was way more accurate in my hands than the Expert and X5. The groups were half the size of the X5 and Expert. Some of this is due to the longer sight radius but that can't be the sole reason. This may be the most accurate centerfire pistol that I have ever run.

My first two magazines were all in the 8 ring without even worrying about sight picture much just alignment. It was a absolute laser beam. Consistently I got good groups while keeping a decent pace and just focusing on sight alignment. The trigger that wasn't so great dry firing was probably the easiest to manage actually shooting. At one point I put a 5 shots into a 0.3 inch center to center group. Unfortunately my next 5 on that target opened that up by a couple of inches.

I suspect that if rested on sandbags the results might be closer between the pistols but I still suspect the Super Target might come out ahead. I will do a future test of mechnical accuracy.

So practical accuracy was P210 Super Target >>> X5 > Expert.

Recoil

I'm not sensitive to recoil so I don't usually notice it but there was a stand out here. The X5 makes 9mm feel like .22. It is incredible how little recoil there is. I attribute that all to the X5's massive weight. The P210 and Expert were fine and didn't have much recoil at all but the X5 was so much better that it was a stark contrast.


So recoil X5 >>> Expert = P210.

Reliability

The Expert has been like all H&Ks perfect out of the box for me. It fed everything and ran perfectly. The plastic USP mags were easier to load and seat than the phosphated Mecgar 15 rounders I am using in the X5. The Expert had absolutely no issues, I did notice when first shooting the Expert that sometimes it would feel like there was a tiny delay between firing and the slide cycling. This may be due to the o-ring on the barrel and the tighter initial fit of the Expert. The Expert and Elite are hand fitted in part unlike the other USPs. This tightness did not affect function or reliability.

The X5 also functioned fine and reliably. It fed and ran all the PMC FMJ. There were no extractor issues. I am going to keep an eye on it to see if the previous generation extractor issues appear in the new series.

The P210 was the least reliable pistol I have ever run. I had 3 light primer strikes on the PMC. A second trigger pull cured that issue but I was very annoyed, I could clearly see a light dimple on the initial pull. In addition, the slide was so tight at least once it failed to go back fully into battery and required a slight push. I had several failures to lock back on the last round. It was also hard to seat a fully loaded magazine. Once I had the slide close on me when I inserted a magazine gently and twice I had a locked back slide close on me when I hit the magazine release. I also had one FTE.

The most serious problem was however that the slide stop back out 1 mm or so while firing and locked up the slide. I could not understand initially why the gun was locked up out of battery and couldn't drop the magazine or move the slide back or forward. Once I pushed the slide stop back in fully, it ran just fine. I think it backed out when I accidentally put pressure on it from the right side pushing it out as it cycled. I am going to monitor my grip and see if it happens again. It was super alarming.

I expect that many of my issues arose from it being a new gun with super close tolerances with no lubrication except the factory shipping grease. I field stripped it at home cleaned out the factory grease and lubed it with Hoppes gun oil. I expect that once I've shot it some more and run it very wet I won't have any more issues. But I will continue to monitor it during the break in.

Every H&K I have had has run perfectly out of the box with all my ammo. The X5 also ran well straight from the factory. However, the Super Target did not. If it were not for the incredible accuracy, I would have been really disappointed with the Super Target.

Reliability: Expert > X5 >>>>> Super Target

Conclusion

This is all relative, each one of these pistols is fantastic and I am in no hurry to sell any. The pistol I enjoyed shooting the most was the X5 but the pistol I shot the best with was the Super Target. Out of the 3, the pistol I would trust my life with is the Expert.

My next test will be to sand bag them and test their mechical accuracy at 25 yds and 50 yards alongside the Pardini and P9S.

Yuns fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Aug 2, 2014

Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


I cleaned the Super Target more and figured out how to adjust the overtravel stop. I initially adjusted it too far to where it wouldn't consistently drop the hammer then backed it out until I got consistent good hammer drops. Trigger weight is now 3.1 lbs. (with the slide off the pull weight is a super smooth 2.75 lbs so the new firing pin safety in the slide of the German P210 adds some weight and grit). The overtravel is now gone. As measured with calipers, the full travel is now 3.35 mm. The take up to the wall is 2.5 mm and the trigger travel after the wall is a break of 0.85 mm. To reset, you have to let fully off the trigger so the reset length is 3.35 mm. This is a hair over a 1/8 inch reset so the reset length is fine. Although since it doesn't reset at the "wall" of the second stage, I tend to perceive it as longer than it actually is.

hangedman
Dec 20, 2003

Fish out of water

Great write-up! I think this is a perfect example of how three guns that seem fairly similar on paper can in fact have extremely different "feels" and shooting impressions. A USP Expert is on my list of "one day" guns for sure, though my P220 Combat fills such a similar niche that I haven't felt a tremendous compulsion to buy it thus far.

Interested to see if your 210 continues to be as finnicky after another 200 rounds.

new friend from school
May 19, 2008


OH MAN, I GOTTA GET ME SOME PENS

SKILCRAFT
QUALITY BLIND MADE PRODUCTS, BITCH

Just came here to say that USP Expert in 9mm is one of my all-time favorite guns. It's pretty much a laser. I will never be nearly as accurate as the gun is.
I'll post pics of that and my 6" 1911 later today.

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Yuns
Aug 19, 2000

There is an idea of a Yuns, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there.


As I noted in the Sig thread, my reliability problems in the Sig P210 Legend Super Target were due to a missing slide catch lever spring. It is uncertain when it was lost. It could have been lost during final assembly at Sig or just as easily lost by the exporter or importer during inspection. Regardless I asked Sig CS and my importer to send me a spring. Sig CS is sending me a spring and my importer got me one first. The spring is the newer U shaped one not the earlier long spring. I got it installed and the Super Target appears to be running perfectly now. My only caveats are that there is not much holding the spring in. one end goes into a hole in the frame and the spring lies in a channel in the left side of the frame. Secondly, there isn't a lot of spring force at all. It's a very soft spring. Won't know for sure until I run a lot of rounds through it.

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