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 It's obvious that Amy is much, much worse than Nick. She's definitely a complete sociopath. I don't think it's necessary to downplay what Amy did, or pretend that Nick is on the same level as her.But why does that mean the movie is misogynistic? I loved Amy's character; I didn't see her as a cliche "psycho bitch" at all. She does terrible things because she has no empathy for others and will do whatever it takes to get what she wants. other people are tools at best, obstacles at worst. She's not the shrill, two-dimensional harpy you see in other movies- she has a loving mental disorder as a cause for the terrible things she does. (I would agree however, that if her parents were supposed to be equally culpable in making her a disturbed human being, it needed to be emphasized a lot more. They definitely came across as fake and far more focused on the ideal of "Amazing Amy" than the real human being in front of them, but it was nowhere near enough.) Like the general reaction here just frustrates me so much- I understand the fears about MRA stereotypes of women, but: is it possible to write a truly evil, unsympathetic female character without being considered misogynist? What does a writer have to do? I haven't read the book, but in the film it almost seemed like Flynn had anticipated this reaction to the character of Amy so she included various good, likable, also 3D female characters: a) the detective as the reasonable good cop who gave Nick the benefit of the doubt for as long as she possibly could, then after the reveal, the only cop who actually questioned Amy's ridiculous story; and b) the twin sister who unquestionably had Nick's back even through all his idiocy. It just seemed 100% clear to me that the writer was not misogynist, even unconsciously- I never got that uncomfortable vibe I so often get when watching movies with female villains. Amy isn't bad because she's a woman and women are just ~craaaaaaaazy~ bitches obsessed with men; women are people and Amy is an evil loving person that happens to be a woman. Her gender heavily influenced the way her sociopathy manifested itself, but it wasn't the cause. The movie uses Amy as a mouthpiece for the feminist statements it makes, but all of that is a smokescreen. The sentiments themselves are legitimate, but Amy uses them mostly as excuses to justify her reprehensible actions. Like Megasabin said, even if Nick hadn't wronged her by cheating, it seemed like Amy still would have left him and hosed him over once she lost control of their living situation. Society definitely hosed Amy over, and she definitely noticed as it was happening, but that's not really why she pulled off her insane plan. It's no feminist revenge story, Amy is no Thelma & Louise. She was totally OK with pretending, with faking it as the "Cool Girl"... until the ideal life she imagined for herself seemed no longer possible due to money troubles and having to move to the lovely "navel of America" to watch her mother-in-law die. Only then did she decide to burn everything to the ground and start again. For all her professed principles, Amy was actually enormously self-centered. Which makes sense for a sociopath.
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Oct 4, 2014 07:24
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Liam Emsa posted:Can the movie even be misogynistic if the novel was written by a woman? Yeah? Women can be extremely misogynistic. Ever heard of Phyllis Schlafly? Also, Flynn wrote the novel and the screenplay.
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Oct 4, 2014 07:36
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MANIFEST DESTINY posted:Where do you think I'm getting my opinion of this film from? I went and saw it because A)its fincher and B) the reviews were trending towards very positive, I came out thinking I must be insane because no movie had repulsed me remotely like this in a long time, and nothing in this thread comes even close to swaying me. Do you have a compelling defense for the film? It would be nice if someone presented one, especially since it sounds like I must be way off base here. I've read through the thread and it seems to be divided into two camps: those who have a similar opinion to me and those who feel like the characters were balanced in their respective failings, which even if you believe that, is no excuse for the film's prodigious use of mra memes. Come on off your high horse and make a case. Read my earlier post. It doesn't fit into either of your categories. Also Megasabin's posts.
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Oct 5, 2014 05:19
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MANIFEST DESTINY posted:If you're confused about why people would still have a problem with it, try and imagine a film where the villain is a racist caricature, pick whatever race you want and imagine that all the evil deeds they do are based specifically on the things that racists say about that group. Would anyone get away with making such a film? Doubtful, unless it was a full on satire and even then you have issues. Is this film a satire? People in this thread have said so but without satisfactorily saying what exactly its meant to satire. You could see it as a full on exploitation style film where we're just meant to bask in the character out of a misogynist's worst nightmare, but if that were the case why aren't we given anything approaching sympathy for Amy? It can't be a revenge film if the film establishes she's evil from the start. What I keep saying here is that the film has all the hallmarks in its over the top nature of some kind of parody, but I just can't pin down what its trying to point at. It would make sense if Afflek's character hated women like his father and Amy, after being long subjected to it, internalizes that and explodes in this kind of revenge, but the film never presents any of that, instead it actively undermines the history of the characters by establishing it as a falsification. So if you've seen it, do you also have a problem with Do The Right Thing? Because it basically does everything you're saying for black people instead of women. It includes all sorts of negative stereotypes racists say about black people, and all you have to do is find the clips of it on YouTube to see people using it to justify their racism. So what was the point of that movie? Is Spike Lee just racist? Or is there something that makes it different from, say, The Birth of a Nation?
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Oct 5, 2014 18:50
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Wraith of J.O.I. posted:See, I didn't get the vibe that she killed Desi and went back to Nick because she saw that interview and felt like that was the man she fell in love with. I got the impression that she found her situation with Desi worse than what she had/could have again with Nick and concocted a plan that would frame Desi as her kidnapper and allow her to escape back to her "normal" life without getting in any sort of trouble (and, in fact, coming out "ahead" from where she started). I didn't really believe she fell back in love with Nick or whatever she said, but just that that was a convenient way for her to escape from Desi. Did others here believe what she said about the Nick she saw in that interview? I thought the crazy intense way she was staring at the screen during the interview showed that she really did take Nick at his word that he'd stop being such a lovely husband, so she decided to give him a second chance. Later in the film when Nick and Amy are in the shower together she makes sure to remind him of his promise that he'll change his behavior, while washing off Desi's blood. Implication: finally, after all the years of her acting like the Cool Girl, now it's Nick's turn to be a "Cool Guy," to pretend to be exactly how she wants. And if he breaks his promise, she'll make him suffer. When Desi turned off the TV, that was the moment she started planning how she was gonna kill him and frame him for kidnapping. I honestly don't think she was planning on killing Desi all along; her living situation in the beach house had many similarities to her marriage, and was actually an improvement in certain ways. If she had stayed with Desi it would still be her faking her way through a relationship and pretending to be a man's fantasy woman, just like she had been doing with Nick, only without any of Nick's financial problems or the cheating (because Desi really did seem genuinely obsessed with her). Amy seemed ruthlessly pragmatic. If staying with Desi was the only way to avoid having her scheme discovered (and letting Nick get away without his "punishment"), then she would resign herself to it.
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Oct 6, 2014 04:10
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