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evilweasel posted:I consider "you have a criminal record a mile long" more an exception for a new law to handle than a justification for our whole dumb system. Don't you mean motivated CRIMINALS? Filled to the brim with DISEASE and PLAGUE? It's a very real problem: just ask on the left! If only we'd enforce the laws as they are written, things would be better. *gets life sentence for possession of pot with no parole, society remains lovely* on the left posted:People don't want to kick them out of school though, they want to remove them physically from the US. Are you joking? People most definitely get into a frothing rage over MAH TAX DOLLARS going to a single "illegal", whether it's using hospitals or schools. And how are those two things mutually exclusive for you? Do you imagine the "illegals" would continue their education uninterrupted via an online degree program? Also, your username is really misleading. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 13:40
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TheRamblingSoul posted:Are you joking? People most definitely get into a frothing rage over MAH TAX DOLLARS going to a single "illegal", whether it's using hospitals or schools. In an ideal world, the student would show up to school, the school notices a discrepancy with paperwork and passes a note to immigration officials who will then pay the student's home a visit and sort out the paperwork problem they seem to be having.
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Jul 17, 2014 13:57
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on the left posted:It's not deportation if we make illegal immigration financially unviable. Furthermore, employers who break labor laws are a good target for enforcement. How could you have undocumented migrants in your family and still be this ignorant about how immigrants actually make life choices?   "Welp, there are no more jobs we can possibly get in America. Better give up now and resign myself to living in a country with even less opportunity and no meaningful way for me or my children to get ahead in life here."
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Jul 17, 2014 13:57
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TheRamblingSoul posted:How could you have undocumented migrants in your family and still be this ignorant about how immigrants actually make life choices? Breaking the networks of support will absolutely help reverse the flow of immigration. If people don't make money here, they won't be able to bring their family members up and it will be incredibly hard to keep the kind of social nets that allow them to fly under the radar.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:03
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on the left posted:I've always regretted that the US didn't have favelas and shantytowns in its major metropolitan areas. We could finally have the kind of inequality that would make Brazil say "At least we aren't America unequal" Shanty towns and favelas are a symptom of severe income inequality, not immigration. Again, your ignorance is showing. It's embarrassing. And no, income inequality and immigration are not, in fact, one and the same. Apples and oranges, etc.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:04
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TheRamblingSoul posted:Shanty towns and favelas are a symptom of severe income inequality, not immigration. If the US stays about as rich as it is now, but imports a ton of poor people, what do you think will happen, mathematically speaking?
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Jul 17, 2014 14:05
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Elotana posted:most get paid under fake SSNs or stolen identities and get their FICA withheld just like everyone else. This should not be lauded as a good thing. I'd much prefer they are given access to proper government ID, drivers licenses and other needed forms of ID/liability insurance. They should be made to follow zoning laws like everyone else. They should have to carry insurance like everyone else. These costs should apply to them as it does to existing residents, so they can't undercut local labor. People are coming here regardless of the law. It's easier and cheaper to document them to mitigate the damage, and a hell of a lot cheaper then deporting masses of families. Deport the criminals only, including anyone who steals someone's identity.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:06
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on the left posted:If the US stays about as rich as it is now, but imports a ton of poor people, what do you think will happen, mathematically speaking? Our numbers will look bad? Oh no, the boss is gonna be pissed, our metrics are way down! Real answer: more workers will mean more business. The economy will grow.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:11
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SedanChair posted:Our numbers will look bad? Oh no, the boss is gonna be pissed, our metrics are way down! Silly SedanChair, don't you know illegals are just sacks of miasma and pestilence made flesh? We need to ENFORCE THE LAW Judge Dredd-style to protect ourselves! People seriously believe that migrants are the equivalent of the rotting carcasses launched into castles during wars just prior to the spread of the Bubonic Plague in the medieval era. If you don't believe me, just listen to the people protesting and screaming at the buses of undocumented kids in the news recently. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 14:19
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on the left posted:In an ideal world, the student would show up to school, the school notices a discrepancy with paperwork and passes a note to immigration officials who will then pay the student's home a visit and sort out the paperwork problem they seem to be having. so in your ideal world, immigrant families are forced to choose between giving their kids an education here or having a job here. cool cool this is a fair policy in no way motivated by spite or hate
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Jul 17, 2014 14:29
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SedanChair posted:Our numbers will look bad? Oh no, the boss is gonna be pissed, our metrics are way down! I guess it's alright then if labor laws are basically a suggestion. I'll definitely be able to find some people willing to work for a dollar an hour.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:35
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Talmonis posted:People are coming here regardless of the law. It's easier and cheaper to document them to mitigate the damage, and a hell of a lot cheaper then deporting masses of families. Deport the criminals only, including anyone who steals someone's identity. This is definitely something that needs to happen soon, though I think identity theft is already covered by existing laws and doesn't really need to be mentioned. TheRamblingSoul posted:Silly SedanChair, don't you know illegals are just sacks of miasma and pestilence made flesh? We need to ENFORCE THE LAW Judge Dredd-style to protect ourselves! That's another reason why I think on the left holds some personal prejudices against undocumented citizens. There have been good reports on how immigrant labor would be of benefit to the American economy. On the lefts opinions are couched in his own perception of reality, and not what's really happening in places with a large undocumented population. Ezra Klein and Evan Soltas posted:Ultimately, the CBO report rips a layer of artifice from the immigration debate. Few critics of immigration reform really base their opposition on concerns about the deficit or the economy. Their real concern with immigration is cultural and sociological. But that’s dangerous political ground. It’s easier to frame opposition using the bloodless language of the budget than the combustible language of national character and composition." EDIT: on the left posted:I guess it's alright then if labor laws are basically a suggestion. I'll definitely be able to find some people willing to work for a dollar an hour. Now you're just confusing me. You do know that optimally any immigration reform or amnesty would include the same basic labor protections we all have as citizens. No one outside of Freep and Stormfront would propose that we leave these people as vulnerable to exploitation as they were undocumented. Cercadelmar fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 14:45
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on the left posted:I guess it's alright then if labor laws are basically a suggestion. I'll definitely be able to find some people willing to work for a dollar an hour. Like I said, let's deport employers who break the law.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:46
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Cercadelmar posted:Now you're just confusing me. You do know that optimally any immigration reform or amnesty would include the same basic labor protections we all have as citizens. No one outside of Freep and Stormfront would propose that we leave these people as vulnerable to exploitation as they were undocumented. Even if they are documented, if there's a huge surplus of labor, the going rate for wage labor can easily go below the minimum wage. The most legal way that this happens is self-owned business, and quickly goes less legal depending on a particular industry's penchant for under the table/unpaid labor.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:55
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Should I use this thread to talk about Underwater Dreams, or start a new one? the correct advice is never post in SA but i'm not going to start following that now
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Jul 17, 2014 14:59
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If we want to reform immigration, shouldn't we logically start by offering visas to a couple million recent college graduates looking to start their careers? This would have optimal economic payoff compared to any other group. It seems pretty silly for a bunch of college-educated 20-somethings to be talking about essentially demolishing low-skill wages in the US.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:05
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on the left posted:In an ideal world, the student would show up to school, the school notices a discrepancy with paperwork and passes a note to immigration officials who will then pay the student's home a visit and sort out the paperwork problem they seem to be having. lol
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Jul 17, 2014 15:06
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So apparently Ted Cruz is going around saying we should deport the DREAM act kids that Obama gave deferred action to. In other news Ted Cruz has found a new low in his quest to be the biggest piece of poo poo in american politics!
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Jul 17, 2014 15:11
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on the left posted:If we want to reform immigration, shouldn't we logically start by offering visas to a couple million recent college graduates looking to start their careers? This would have optimal economic payoff compared to any other group. We should absolutely be offering visas to college graduates. Literally no one but the craziest "burning wall of tires" nationalist would debate that idea. What people have been having problems with, and what you've been delicately avoiding, is that fact that your 'solutions' would break up families and deport skilled workers. All throughout this you've managed to not show an ounce of compassion for the people or communities that would be affected by your ideas. You have gross opinions and you don't even have the courage to defend them. mcmagic posted:So apparently Ted Cruz is going around saying we should deport the DREAM act kids that Obama gave deferred action to. In other news Ted Cruz has found a new low in his quest to be the biggest piece of poo poo in american politics! At least he's consistent, I'll give him that.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:30
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Cercadelmar posted:This is definitely something that needs to happen soon, though I think identity theft is already covered by existing laws and doesn't really need to be mentioned. Most illegal immigrants are not subject to laws involving "aggravated identity theft" provided they don't actually know if the SSNs are real. mcmagic posted:So apparently Ted Cruz is going around saying we should deport the DREAM act kids that Obama gave deferred action to. In other news Ted Cruz has found a new low in his quest to be the biggest piece of poo poo in american politics! Well to do otherwise would be to become another Rubio. Besides, as this thread has shown, deportation is the new in-thing.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:34
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I agree with evilweasel, actually. Population growth means, in a post-"Malthusian trap" world, economic growth. Therefore, I don't think there's any humane reason why we shouldn't just offer citizenship as a matter of course to anyone showing up at border crossings. Like, literally "Welcome to the USA, would you like to fill out a citizenship application?" I think it would actually reduce wastage of bureaucracy because it would get rid of the need for extensive checks and procedures and so on.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:38
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DrSunshine posted:I agree with evilweasel, actually. Population growth means, in a post-"Malthusian trap" world, economic growth. Therefore, I don't think there's any humane reason why we shouldn't just offer citizenship as a matter of course to anyone showing up at border crossings. Like, literally "Welcome to the USA, would you like to fill out a citizenship application?" I think it would actually reduce wastage of bureaucracy because it would get rid of the need for extensive checks and procedures and so on. This. There is no reason not to offer citizen ship to anyone who shows up at the border, or wants to come here from abroad. (Other than the racism of the republican base.)
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Jul 17, 2014 15:45
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The immigration debate is so loving exhausting cause it seems like everyone involved is dedicated to being an rear end in a top hat. I mean watching idiots wave giant flags while they harass and shout down children running from what is basically a war zone is enough to bring me to violent rage. While at the same time the left wants to act like since they don't like our immigration policy that breaking the law isn't really breaking the law. We need an immigration policy that isn't completely retarded, and we need to actually enforce it, and we need some pretty sweeping amnesty for people who are already here. We do need to crack down on employers hiring illegal immigrants. I'm not going to even take a stance on how lax or strict the immigration policy should be because I honestly don't know. The whole "lol speeding" thing is loving stupid. The fact that we have laws that are so overly broad or overly restrictive to the point where everyone breaks them and the police enforce them selectively (i.e. if you're a minority) is evidence that these are bad loving laws, not that there's no point in following laws.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:48
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In fact, going a little further with this, I think that an open-border region like the Schengen Area in the EU would do North America a ton of good. It would help facilitate the free movement of labor and commerce throughout North and Central America.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:51
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on the left posted:If the US stays about as rich as it is now, but imports a ton of poor people, what do you think will happen, mathematically speaking?
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Jul 17, 2014 15:54
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James The 1st posted:Clearly the invasion of poor Chinese, Irish, Germans, English, Italians, Russians ect. 1800-1900 destroyed this country. Clearly nothing has changed in the US in the last 100-200 years that might alter the effect of such a mass migration.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:10
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Jarmak posted:Clearly nothing has changed in the US in the last 100-200 years that might alter the effect of such a mass migration. As people said earlier more immigrants means more spenders and tax payers, they help the US Economy by coming here not destroy it. And I agree we should enforce labor laws, but putting the burden on the immigrant and not the employer is pretty awful.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:12
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Jarmak posted:Clearly nothing has changed in the US in the last 100-200 years that might alter the effect of such a mass migration. Things that have changed: there are now less
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Jul 17, 2014 16:14
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Alexzandvar posted:As people said earlier more immigrants means more spenders and tax payers, they help the US Economy by coming here not destroy it. And I agree we should enforce labor laws, but putting the burden on the immigrant and not the employer is pretty awful. I agree that we should be putting more of the burden on the employer, but you can't ignore the fact that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries we had a booming manufacturing economy that was fueled by abusively cheap immigrant labor. There are good arguments for very open immigration policy (I'm thinking along the lines of "you can come in as long as you don't have a criminal history", no limits) but pointing to how it worked great for the economy during the gilded age is an insultingly bad one.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:21
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computer parts posted:Things that have changed: there are now less You also don't see poor African Americans or Asian Americans in those positions, and it's due to the fact that they don't pay living wages for backbreaking work. The only reason they get away with pay that little, is because of the captive immigrant population who are unable to purchase insurance, and are typically living multiple families to a single apartment or house. If they didn't have the threat of deportation looming, and were able to be documented, that would be resolved and they'd need to be paid a lot more. Wages would go up as they should, and competition would increase for those jobs.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:31
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Jarmak posted:I agree that we should be putting more of the burden on the employer, but you can't ignore the fact that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries we had a booming manufacturing economy that was fueled by abusively cheap immigrant labor. There are good arguments for very open immigration policy (I'm thinking along the lines of "you can come in as long as you don't have a criminal history", no limits) but pointing to how it worked great for the economy during the gilded age is an insultingly bad one. That's not the only factor at play, though. An increased population also means an increased consumer base, meaning a larger domestic market to buy and sell products to. Additionally, first-generation immigrant families tend to put a high amount of their earned wages into savings, which are then diverted into investments such as purchasing houses, starting businesses, and so on. The high savings rate of immigrant families helps drive long-term economic growth.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:39
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James The 1st posted:Clearly the invasion of poor Chinese, Irish, Germans, English, Italians, Russians ect. 1800-1900 destroyed this country. Something tells me you also don't want to go back to the labor laws and welfare programs that existed during that time. Alexzandvar posted:As people said earlier more immigrants means more spenders and tax payers, they help the US Economy by coming here not destroy it. People sure waved their hands and came to this conclusion, but actual evidence has been sparse. It makes little sense on its face given that low paying jobs are disappearing and shifting to high skilled work. tsa fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 16:40
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Talmonis posted:You also don't see poor African Americans or Asian Americans in those positions, and it's due to the fact that they don't pay living wages for backbreaking work. The only reason they get away with pay that little, is because of the captive immigrant population who are unable to purchase insurance, and are typically living multiple families to a single apartment or house. If they didn't have the threat of deportation looming, and were able to be documented, that would be resolved and they'd need to be paid a lot more. Wages would go up as they should, and competition would increase for those jobs.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:40
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DrSunshine posted:That's not the only factor at play, though. An increased population also means an increased consumer base, meaning a larger domestic market to buy and sell products to. Additionally, first-generation immigrant families tend to put a high amount of their earned wages into savings, which are then diverted into investments such as purchasing houses, starting businesses, and so on. The high savings rate of immigrant families helps drive long-term economic growth. Consumer base only increases if those people are employed though. Look the reason I didn't want to stake out a position on what the policy should be is that I don't feel like I'm educated enough on the issue to confidently argue for any particular policy. That doesn't stop me however from pointing out that "man it worked out great during the industrial revolution!" is a really stupid argument.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:47
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computer parts posted:The reason you don't see poor Black people or Asians in those jobs is that combined they make up about 15% of the population in the US. Yes, wages should go up and there should be more accountability to make sure they're not making GBS threads on people but even with that those jobs are going to be (vastly) majority Hispanic. I think more people, regardless of race are going to be heading for farm and manual work when it starts to pay more than just working at WalMart. The narrative from the media that "Americans think those jobs are beneath them" is wrong, as most of the American poor are stuck in the service industry. I can't think of a job lower in social status then "Wal Mart cashier". At least, that's how they're treated in any case.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:48
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Jarmak posted:I agree that we should be putting more of the burden on the employer, but you can't ignore the fact that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries we had a booming manufacturing economy that was fueled by abusively cheap immigrant labor. One also has to take into account the giant change in government spending since then. Like it's obvious we can take in a decent amount of low skilled people because we already do it, the job market absorbs them pretty well. If the US just went "Yo, everyone gets a citizenship card who shows up at the border", that may create some issues depending on how many people show up. computer parts posted:The reason you don't see poor Black people or Asians in those jobs is that combined they make up about 15% of the population in the US. Yeah but don't Hispanics make up like 15-16%? When it comes to these jobs, and specifically farm work, it probably has something to do with the Hispanic people in the fields know how to do it. It actually takes some skill to pick vegetables/fruit with speed and poor black, asian or white people in America generally have never done it(and as events in certain states have shown, Americans of all colors factually don't want to do it). As for construction, most poor blacks and asians are citizens and probably aren't going to stand on corners hoping for work, and even if they did there might be a bias against them as people might assume Hispanics are better workers and know what they're doing since you in fact never see people of other ethnicity standing on the corner waiting to do that kind of work.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:49
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Jarmak posted:I agree that we should be putting more of the burden on the employer, but you can't ignore the fact that in the late 19th and early 20th centuries we had a booming manufacturing economy that was fueled by abusively cheap immigrant labor. There are good arguments for very open immigration policy (I'm thinking along the lines of "you can come in as long as you don't have a criminal history", no limits) but pointing to how it worked great for the economy during the gilded age is an insultingly bad one. It isn't just during the gilded age that towns benefit from added labor and residents, Mcallen, Texas had the best economic recovery post-recession and it's only 10 miles from the border. Rather than having a shortage of jobs to go around, the city's experienced excellent growth in population and industry. It also has a decent amount of public services, or at least as many as Texans will tolerate. Talmonis posted:You also don't see poor African Americans or Asian Americans in those positions, and it's due to the fact that they don't pay living wages for backbreaking work. The only reason they get away with pay that little, is because of the captive immigrant population who are unable to purchase insurance, and are typically living multiple families to a single apartment or house. If they didn't have the threat of deportation looming, and were able to be documented, that would be resolved and they'd need to be paid a lot more. Wages would go up as they should, and competition would increase for those jobs. I'd disagree with your point. On average most farmworkers have only received a 7th grade education. As a result agriculture is one of the few industries they can work in. By contrast, African and Asian Americans tend to receive a, relatively, higher amount of education and have better social mobility. Not to mention that productive harvesting is dependent on experienced workers who are familiar with farmwork already. We have a large stock of experienced Hispanic workers, but comparatively fewer experienced African or Asian American workers. The blame for lowered wages should be placed solely on the farms underpaying and exploiting their workers, not on the workers themselves.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:50
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Amused to Death posted:
Yes, but they're much more evenly distributed than Asians (primarily in the West/California) or Black people (primarily in the Southeast). Plus this is ignoring the fact that average household and personal income of Asians are higher than any other group so it's far less likely that they'll be in manual labor anyway.
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Jul 17, 2014 16:53
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Cercadelmar posted:It isn't just during the gilded age that towns benefit from added labor and residents, Mcallen, Texas had the best economic recovery post-recession and it's only 10 miles from the border. Rather than having a shortage of jobs to go around, the city's experienced excellent growth in population and industry. It also has a decent amount of public services, or at least as many as Texans will tolerate. Do you have more data on this? Specifically in regards to by what mechanism the increase in available labor helped with the recovery? Jarmak fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 16:54
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Jarmak posted:Do you have more data on this? Specifically in regards to what mechanism the increase in available labor helped with the recovery? Here's the article I'm citing for the most recovered since the recession. And you can find two more articles related to the topic here and here. Special attention should be placed on a specific line of the 3rd link, quote:Hispanics represent 90% of the McAllen area population and individuals under 35 years of age make up between 59.3% of the population. The population, although diverse, is defined by two dominant demographic criteria: Hispanic and young. Also here's a piece that goes into more of the general economic benefits of immigration. EDIT: I should add why it's important that most of the population is young. Mcallen's recovery was fueled by having a diverse economy that they were able to take advantage of by having a large amount of easily retrained workers. Cercadelmar fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 17:13
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