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The Flash is usually faster than Superman, and by that I mean he can vibrate himself through solid matter or vibrate so fast he becomes invisible. I think time travel and crossing to alternate dimensions are also typical Flash stuff nowadays.
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Feb 29, 2016 10:36
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Flash is actually pretty much one of the most powerful superheroes of all time, his speed is just so ridiculous as usually written.
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Feb 29, 2016 12:32
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See also Days of Future Past quickly excising its super-fast guy and why I suspect Avengers 2 killed off Quicksilver. Speedsters are a narrative problem.
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Feb 29, 2016 13:23
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Basically from what I've remembered from Justice League TAS, The Flash is OP as gently caress, but he's kind of a ditz who doesn't know the full extent of what he can do. This works pretty great in that episode where he and Lex switch minds.
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Feb 29, 2016 13:41
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achillesforever6 posted:Basically from what I've remembered from Justice League TAS, The Flash is OP as gently caress, but he's kind of a ditz who doesn't know the full extent of what he can do. Similarly, Batman pointed out one time that Plastic Man is one of the most powerful superheroes on the planet because he's pretty much immortal and invulnerable, is immune to mind control and can control his size and density and even his strength up to Superman levels. But he's a wacky comic relief character who is never serious about anything so he's never really put his powers to their full use.
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Feb 29, 2016 14:01
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Similarly, Batman pointed out one time that Plastic Man is one of the most powerful superheroes on the planet because he's pretty much immortal and invulnerable, is immune to mind control and can control his size and density and even his strength up to Superman levels. But he's a wacky comic relief character who is never serious about anything so he's never really put his powers to their full use. Except the time he fought the Burning Martian who clowned the League and murdered all the other White Martians. I think that's what you refer to. For those who don't know Martians like John Jonzz are basically Superman plus shape shifting and mind control minus the same speed and have a tremendous fear and vulnerability to fire.
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Feb 29, 2016 14:04
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Also can turn invisible and walk through walls
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Feb 29, 2016 14:15
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Is there one member of the Justice League that isn't at one time or another a ridiculously overpowered ubergod? I mean, I get that Superman starts out as such, and that Martian Manhunter is green superman in He-Man attire, but Plastic Man? Really?
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Feb 29, 2016 14:25
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Gatts posted:Except the time he fought the Burning Martian who clowned the League and murdered all the other White Martians. I think that's what you refer to.
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Feb 29, 2016 14:27
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Grendels Dad posted:Is there one member of the Justice League that isn't at one time or another a ridiculously overpowered ubergod? I mean, I get that Superman starts out as such, and that Martian Manhunter is green superman in He-Man attire, but Plastic Man? Really?
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Feb 29, 2016 14:35
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Black Canary and Green Arrow never get to crazy levels of power, from memory. I had those two at the back of my mind when I posted the question, if only because of the TV show. I wouldn't have been surprised though if at some point Black Canary had a reality-shattering voice or something. And Green Arrow has reality-shattering abs.
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Feb 29, 2016 14:40
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Grendels Dad posted:Is there one member of the Justice League that isn't at one time or another a ridiculously overpowered ubergod? I mean, I get that Superman starts out as such, and that Martian Manhunter is green superman in He-Man attire, but Plastic Man? Really? I think this is just kinda what happens when comic book writers realize the full implications of what superpowers mean.
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Feb 29, 2016 14:50
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Black Canary and Green Arrow never get to crazy levels of power, from memory. Green Arrow and the Atom killed Darkseid in an alternate future issue.
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Feb 29, 2016 14:54
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Cythereal posted:See also Days of Future Past quickly excising its super-fast guy and why I suspect Avengers 2 killed off Quicksilver. Speedsters are a narrative problem. Avengers actually did a good job of making Quicksilver's powers look very demanding, physically. DoFP's Quicksilver would have been cheat mode, btu Avengers Quicksilver would be like a gassed fighter.
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Feb 29, 2016 15:09
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i feel like we're on the cusp of witnessing a Goes Fast post for a new generation
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Feb 29, 2016 15:37
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Similarly, Batman pointed out one time that Plastic Man is one of the most powerful superheroes on the planet because he's pretty much immortal and invulnerable, is immune to mind control and can control his size and density and even his strength up to Superman levels. But he's a wacky comic relief character who is never serious about anything so he's never really put his powers to their full use. I think this was after, due to time travel poo poo, Plastic Man survived for 3,000 years scattered as particles across the floor of the ocean. That JLA run was great.
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Feb 29, 2016 16:40
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Cythereal posted:See also Days of Future Past quickly excising its super-fast guy and why I suspect Avengers 2 killed off Quicksilver. Speedsters are a narrative problem. My theory still remains that Fox and Marvel had an informal arrangement about those two, with each franchise getting one sibling. That's why AoU killed Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch was a kid in DoFP, and probably won't show up in Apocalypse.
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Feb 29, 2016 16:46
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Grendels Dad posted:Is there one member of the Justice League that isn't at one time or another a ridiculously overpowered ubergod? I mean, I get that Superman starts out as such, and that Martian Manhunter is green superman in He-Man attire, but Plastic Man? Really? No, but neither is there a member of the Avengers either. If you take the highest power trick that every hero has performed even someone like Captain America is absurdly above human level, let alone guys like the Hulk (whose strength can be represented by an infinity sign) or Thor (Literal God) or Tony Stark (makes robots that can fight or BEAT the other two.) Superhero power levels get absurd if taken to their extremes and few writers really do that.
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Feb 29, 2016 16:48
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Clearly you have yet to read the Thor God of Thunder series. It is three Thors (his past, present and future) ripping through time and space as they fight the God Butcher. Everything is dialed up and each page with a fight looks like it could be a heavy metal album cover. It's some good power fantasy.
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Feb 29, 2016 17:11
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Grendels Dad posted:I had those two at the back of my mind when I posted the question, if only because of the TV show. I wouldn't have been surprised though if at some point Black Canary had a reality-shattering voice or something. And Green Arrow has reality-shattering abs. I think Black Canary is so good at Jujitsu or something that she can take on a Kryptonian in hand-to-hand combat by using their own strength against them. (I don't know how she accounts for their superspeed of course.) But nothing comes even close to Flash's abilities when he actually wants to accomplish something. Dude can read like an entire library in less than a second, keep all the knowledge in his short term memory, assemble whatever miracle science object he needs to, and be more knowledgeable than Lex Luthor or Batman for 30 minutes. But in the comics he does poo poo like run into swords and get punched by a normal guy all the time.
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Feb 29, 2016 18:24
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Yoshifan823 posted:My theory still remains that Fox and Marvel had an informal arrangement about those two, with each franchise getting one sibling. Given how frosty the relationship is between Fox and Marvel, I think this is highly unlikely.
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Feb 29, 2016 18:38
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AngryBooch posted:I think Black Canary is so good at Jujitsu or something that she can take on a Kryptonian in hand-to-hand combat by using their own strength against them. (I don't know how she accounts for their superspeed of course.) But nothing comes even close to Flash's abilities when he actually wants to accomplish something. Dude can read like an entire library in less than a second, keep all the knowledge in his short term memory, assemble whatever miracle science object he needs to, and be more knowledgeable than Lex Luthor or Batman for 30 minutes. But in the comics he does poo poo like run into swords and get punched by a normal guy all the time. For anyone that is a threat in power to The Flash; say they're too durable for him to hurt - he can take their speed from them and turn them into a statue. When a group has a guy with the powers of Superman, AND the powers of Professor X, AND can shape shift into anyone, AND can turn invisible, AND can turn intangible, and he's not the most broken person in the group, there's a problem.
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Feb 29, 2016 18:51
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Darko posted:When a group has a guy with the powers of Superman, AND the powers of Professor X, AND can shape shift into anyone, AND can turn invisible, AND can turn intangible, and he's not the most broken person in the group, there's a problem. Eh, not really. Every hero's powers to some degree or another are broken if taken to their natural extreme. Look at Spider-Man. The dude has Spider-Sense. Literal precognition. Precognition that not only works against attacks but against theoretical threats. There are times his Spider-Sense has warned him that someone dangerous is nearby or that a threat exists. Spider-Man theoretically should be able to resolve every single problem or mystery by swinging around until his Spider-Sense goes off and using that to narrow down the actual secret identity of the villain or base of the killer or whatever. The only reason this doesn't happen is because of in-story deus ex machina or when the writers intentionally narrow his powers down so they don't work the same way they do in other comics. Spider-Man taken to his most extreme can do completely absurd things and has literally punched out gods. It's not particularly interesting but none the less when people argue about how 'broken' a hero is they always use their highest possible power level in every situation even if that's a one-off thing that doesn't actually represent how the character is regularly written. Wolverine has unbreakable bones, claws that can cut through literally everything and a regeneration factor that has done things like 'tank a nuclear bomb" or "come back from the dead" with ease but most people who write Wolverine are not writing him at that level. On paper Superman's power set is "is stronger than a human, is faster than a human, can fly, can shoot heat from his eyes, has vague super senses, probably super breath, and is incredibly durable." It's a generic power set but "he can move planets, is faster than the flash, his heat vision can reignite the sun, he can hear a pin drop from pluto and he's literally immune to all damage" is exaggeration or extremes, not the norm. It's the same with the Flash who goes from "is fast" to "literally breaks the laws of physics" because bigger numbers sound impressive. And this isn't exclusive to DC heroes. Reed Richard went from "the smartest man around" to someone whose superpower is technobabble and intelligence. The Human Torch can literally become a sun. The Invisible Woman can solo the Hulk and is effectively one of the strongest heroes in the multiverse. The Thing... well, the Thing's superpower is being just strong enough to job to whoever he is fighting and for it to be impressive. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 19:15
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It seems like the problem isn't really the powers themselves, but that it is too easy to take them to their logical extremes, and once that has happened there it's extremely awkward because everything has turned into Dragonball Z.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:22
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Yoshifan823 posted:My theory still remains that Fox and Marvel had an informal arrangement about those two, with each franchise getting one sibling. That's why AoU killed Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch was a kid in DoFP, and probably won't show up in Apocalypse. This is a pretty stupid theory considering all the bullshit that was publicly aired over it and it came down to Joss Whedon and Bryan Singer being huge babies.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:24
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Grendels Dad posted:It seems like the problem isn't really the powers themselves, but that it is too easy to take them to their logical extremes, and once that has happened there it's extremely awkward because everything has turned into Dragonball Z. Pretty much. The issue is that in order to make something seem bigger or more impressive it pushes the limits of the character, which is fine on its own except then it keeps happening and each time it needs to be more impressive than the last which inevitably leads to bigger numbers and bigger events and it compounds. If Superman moves a planet than the next time Superman lifts an island it isn't impressive enough so next time Superman has to move a super-dense planet made of unobtanium. The Flash going so fast he travels back in time becomes his 'norm' and so he has to save a million people from an explosion in a fraction of a second, ect, ect. If a character is defined by something it also means that if anything challenges that the character has to be 'bumped up' so they're still the best. This is why Reed Richards is cartoonishly intelligent now. He's the "smartest man alive" but when his competition is doing absurd poo poo, Reed needs to be EVEN BETTER at doing absurd poo poo. Dr. Doom is Reed's rival and so the better Reed gets the better Doom needs to get so he's still competition. There's no reason that Superman or the Martian Manhunter need to be 'broken' except that power bloat insists they must to be at their most impressive.
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Feb 29, 2016 19:54
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Pretty much. Nobody has limits, which means even the lamest heroes become cosmically powerful after a few decades. Separating heroes/stories into "Street level", "Main dudes" and "Cosmic" was a smart choice on Marvel's part. Otherwise the Power Cosmic would still be bouncing between every hot hero and creating visual atrocities like this: 
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Feb 29, 2016 21:52
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ImpAtom posted:Eh, not really. Every hero's powers to some degree or another are broken if taken to their natural extreme. - Spider-man often faces villains who are more powerful than him (he's lifted 20tons max in extreme circumstances, and has villains that can lift 60, and lives in a world where people can move mountains) or use ways to nullify his Spider-sense in various ways. His stories are normally about his Rogue's Gallery generally planning something, and him having to work around other people and misdirection in order to do it. - Wolverine's healing factor varies all over the place, but generally sits at around where movie Deadpool's is, with a few extreme outliers (which were explained away via outside sources). Outside of that, he's less strong and skilled than Captain America on average, nowhere near Spider-man's level in speed, much less other people he often fights, and is also generally easy to write around. - The Flash, on average (DC reboots make this hard when it comes to gauging which version someone is), is multiple times faster than the speed of light, and this happens without him -actually- needing to think to activate it (ie. if someone shoots him from behind, he automatically senses the bullet as soon as it touches him and his speed activates). He also has abilities like literally taking anyone's speed or vibrating through things to make himself intangible and those things explode. When he's not fighting someone as fast as him (which is a shortlist, that includes, like, Zoom), he has to either "forget" that he can speed steal, etc., or his powers stop working like they were written, and he can "run into a sword Deathstroke had sticking from behind him, even though, from his perspective, everything is completely still." It's really, really hard to write the Flash at where writers put him towards the end of the Wally run, and it's not about the logical extreme in general, but instead, how his powers are generally displayed and consistency with that. Even the show has this issue, as Barry will run in the hundreds of Machs to change clothes off camera, but, when fighting someone, he's mysteriously Mach 1 and can be tripped. Those kinds of inconsistencies take a lot of the drama out of things. This is mostly due to power creep and editorial issues, combined with continuity in the comics. Superman has to be the strongest, so whenever Wonder Woman does something, he has to do more later on. Flash has to be the fastest, so when Superman does something ridiculous, he does more, and writers build off of that. Then some writers (coughGrantMorrison) like taking powers and their implications to their extremes. Then later writers just want to write a story about The Trickster, and can't do so without countering the things you've seen the Flash do a month ago. Dragon Ball, which you use as an example, doesn't really have this problem, since having a singular writer and a defined end, means that those things can be contained to a much larger degree. We also don't have that problem much in the movie universes...yet...because they're working within the same oversight throughout. The issue there is more with Marvel character personalities jumping all over the place. However, if this goes on another 10 years, with large creative team changes, I wouldn't be surprised in seeing some of the same issues cropping up.
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Feb 29, 2016 22:03
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Darko posted:- Spider-man often faces villains who are more powerful than him (he's lifted 20tons max in extreme circumstances, and has villains that can lift 60, and lives in a world where people can move mountains) or use ways to nullify his Spider-sense in various ways. His stories are normally about his Rogue's Gallery generally planning something, and him having to work around other people and misdirection in order to do it. Spider-Man is frequently and often portrayed as holding back. This is a reason why the Sinister Six can even exist. Spider-Man can be threatened by Doctor Octopus and then reliably defeat a team of six of his strongest enemies working together to defeat him. His power fluctuates all over the place and very frequently he is stronger than his opponent but deus ex machina'd into not winning instantly. This ignores all the various powers he's gotten and lost over the years or powers he should still technically have but forgot about like The Other. (Despite the fact that Spider-Man's other powers are somehow simultaneously still canon and non-canon! He lost them in Brand New Day but specifically talks to people about having them and Scarlet Spider relies on them existing.) Darko posted:- Wolverine's healing factor varies all over the place, but generally sits at around where movie Deadpool's is, with a few extreme outliers (which were explained away via outside sources). Outside of that, he's less strong and skilled than Captain America on average, nowhere near Spider-man's level in speed, much less other people he often fights, and is also generally easy to write around. This is not remotely average. Wolverine's strength and speed are all over the place. He's frequently portrayed as having abnormally inhuman strength due to his reinforced adamantium bones and he's been portrayed as quick and skilled enough to literally cut bullets out of air with his claws, as well as bullshit like being a trained samurai and skilled warrior. Wolverine is exactly as strong and tough and fast as he needs to be in order to stand up to any opponent he wants to and his healing factor is exactly as strong as it needs to be for the drama of the story. Darko posted:- The Flash, on average (DC reboots make this hard when it comes to gauging which version someone is), is multiple times faster than the speed of light, and this happens without him -actually- needing to think to activate it (ie. if someone shoots him from behind, he automatically senses the bullet as soon as it touches him and his speed activates). He also has abilities like literally taking anyone's speed or vibrating through things to make himself intangible and those things explode. When he's not fighting someone as fast as him (which is a shortlist, that includes, like, Zoom), he has to either "forget" that he can speed steal, etc., or his powers stop working like they were written, and he can "run into a sword Deathstroke had sticking from behind him, even though, from his perspective, everything is completely still." It's really, really hard to write the Flash at where writers put him towards the end of the Wally run, and it's not about the logical extreme in general, but instead, how his powers are generally displayed and consistency with that. No, you're doing exactly the "he can do what he can at his highest" thing here. What you are listing there is not 'the average.' They are one-off tricks, powers that he had at one point and lost, or various other things. You're holding those as the 'standard' for Flash but apparently every time Spider-Man does something exceptional it isn't the baseline. The Flash has a lot of gimmicks but frequently they are one-use or only used by a specific author and then dropped when someone else picks him up. (Which is something that also applies to other heroes, which is why many heroes get a powerup or new ability that lasts until the end of an arc.) And if we're going to talk about once-off tricks the king of them is The Hulk whose superpower is literally that he is the strongest regardless of what that means. He can get so angry he can breathe in space, he can get so angry he resists magic, he can get so angry he can lift quintillions, he can get so angry he can regenerate from a corpse. (All things the Hulk has actually done.) Thor's power level is so all over the place he can be knocked out by Spider-Man or make Galactus pause. Iron Man's power level can reach the point of having suits custom-designed to defeat things like Galactus, The Phoenix and Thanos but is also reliably expected to have trouble against mortal enemies. If you're holding the characters to gimmicks instead of concepts then they're all absurd and unstoppable. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Feb 29, 2016 |
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Feb 29, 2016 22:39
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i liked that time The Flash raced a guy whose power was instantaneous zero time delay teleportation back to his home planet and Flash still beat him back.
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Feb 29, 2016 22:44
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32MB OF ESRAM posted:i liked that time The Flash raced a guy whose power was instantaneous zero time delay teleportation back to his home planet and Flash still beat him back. Flash's secret is that he's the racer from Sheep in the Big City taken to the extreme; there was just a guy in a flash costume chilling out at the planet's finish line, just like how there was a free flash nearby while the original flash vibrated his insides into paste trying to get out of his restraints.
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Feb 29, 2016 22:52
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Spidey's greatest strength early on was actually his durability. Dude could go toe to toe with the Rhino and come out without a broken bone. For reference, Rhino is a guy who is shown to be able to trade blows with the Hulk. Also Spider-man fought the Hulk a few times. A Robot Spider-Man who was identical to the real thing outside of morality kicked the poo poo out of the Avengers including Thor. It really all comes down to what the story is and worrying about bullshit beyond that is pointless. The only time it should really matter is when Superman says he can't fly for false drama when he has been flying the entire time until that point.
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Feb 29, 2016 22:58
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32MB OF ESRAM posted:i liked that time The Flash raced a guy whose power was instantaneous zero time delay teleportation back to his home planet and Flash still beat him back. I like to think that Flash did it in the time it took for the guy to think about teleporting and then commanding his body to put that thought into action. Like, when you touch something really hot and you think "drat this is gonna loving hurt yeah?" but it takes like 0.2 seconds for it to actually start hurting. Nerve impulses in the human body can travel at 200 miles per hour or as slow as 2 miles per hour. The Flash can do a lot of poo poo in that time.
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Feb 29, 2016 23:28
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I bought tickets for BvS on opening weekend thinking, "surely my friends would like to go too". So I bought six, with 4 to give. Every friend I ask has responded with, "No thanks, but count me in for Suicide Squad!" I can't stop laughing at the notion that people would prefer to watch a DC movie about their villains and not their heroes.
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Feb 29, 2016 23:54
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Man, that is so weird to me. I've seen some truly lovely movies because I wanted to hang out with friends. That's half the fun of movies both good and bad.
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Feb 29, 2016 23:56
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ImpAtom posted:Man, that is so weird to me. I've seen some truly lovely movies because I wanted to hang out with friends. That's half the fun of movies both good and bad. One friend, "No thanks, Batman is neat, but Superman is sooo blahhh"
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Feb 29, 2016 23:58
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MacheteZombie posted:I bought tickets for BvS on opening weekend thinking, "surely my friends would like to go too". So I bought six, with 4 to give. Every friend I ask has responded with, "No thanks, but count me in for Suicide Squad!" The villains look like better and more likable people to be honest. Both Batman and Superman look like huge unlikable assholes.
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Feb 29, 2016 23:58
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MacheteZombie posted:I can't stop laughing at the notion that people would prefer to watch a DC movie about their villains and not their heroes. To be fair, that's been a common compliment of DC for long a while, that their villains are more interesting than their heroes.
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Mar 1, 2016 00:00
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CelticPredator posted:The villains look like better and more likable people to be honest. Both Batman and Superman look like huge unlikable assholes. They're keeping par with Marvel I guess.
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Mar 1, 2016 00:00
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I get why one might prefer to see SS over BvS, I just find the idea of liking villains more than hero funny. I'd say it comes off like an American attitude to like the outlaws more than the cowboys, but I'd pulling poo poo out of my rear end for why I'm chuckling stupidly. SS does look like a much more fun than BvS and that's obviously what's driving my friends preference with one over the other.
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Mar 1, 2016 00:02
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