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vssrio23 posted:In what way does winning a robotics competition (with an MIT team as a contestant for dramatic effect) have anything to do with achieving financial success? quote:A decade after the competition, MIT professors invited the winners to Cambridge, Massachusetts for a reunion with the MIT team they beat. Not surprisingly, the losers were now winning engineers; one of the MIT graduates had gone on to invent ear buds for Apple. Because it shows that undocumented students are forced into poverty. Having watched the movie, the Hayden team were a bunch of awkward nerds who in any other situation would have been able to go to college. The only thing keeping them from "achieving financial success" was not having citizenships.
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Jul 26, 2014 16:57
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on the left posted:I don't know why you'd want to encourage that kind of job creation in the US. I don't, I want to encourage safe and free access for all workers. My point is that you're literally parroting GOP nativist rhetoric and assuming they're all just lazy
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Jul 26, 2014 17:00
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Cercadelmar posted:Because it shows that undocumented students are forced into poverty. Having watched the movie, the Hayden team were a bunch of awkward nerds who in any other situation would have been able to go to college. Your first point that undocumented workers are forced into poverty is correct. Your second point that they would have, if documented, went to college is a not only a non-sequitur argument but is also a strawman to draw attention away from the original claim. Your final point is, again, a non-sequitur argument. It is not established that they would have been successful on par with the MIT students even if they were citizens. Winning a robotics competition is in no way a guarantee that one can find a profitable career after his formal education. To make the logical leap you have made is factually absurd. vssrio23 fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 17:26
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vssrio23 posted:Your first point that undocumented workers are forced into poverty is correct. Your second point that they would have, if documented, went to college is a not only a non-sequitur argument but is also a strawman to draw attention away from the original claim. It's not that absurd. Sorry.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:30
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Bip Roberts posted:It's not that absurd. Sorry. What is the connection between winning a robotics competitition and achieving financial success?
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Jul 26, 2014 17:34
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vssrio23 posted:What is the connection between winning a robotics competitition and achieving financial success? Evidently the correlation between losing one is pretty high.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:36
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vssrio23 posted:Your first point that undocumented workers are forced into poverty is correct. Your second point that they would have, if documented, went to college is a not only a non-sequitur argument but is also a strawman to draw attention away from the original claim. Well, considering that one of the guys enrolled in community college and then got kicked out... quote:Your final point is, again, a non-sequitur argument. It is not established that they would have been successful on par with the MIT students even if they were citizens. Winning a robotics competition is in no way a guarantee that one can find a profitable career after his formal education. To make the logical leap you have made is factually absurd. No one said they would have become as successful as MIT students. That's your dumb strawman. The point is that they were not even given the chance to try.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:36
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vssrio23 posted:Your first point that undocumented workers are forced into poverty is correct. Your second point that they would have, if documented, went to college is a not only a non-sequitur argument but is also a strawman to draw attention away from the original claim. quote:Christian, who had finished second in his high school class, was forced to drop out of community college in 2006 under the harsh terms of Arizona’s Proposition 300, which denies state aid to undocumented students." I think its safe to assume that most of them could have gone to college. quote:Anjelica Hernandez, a female member of the 2004 robotics team who is featured in the film but didn’t travel with the boys to Santa Barbara, is taking up the challenge. When I met her, she had just received a master’s in science from Stanford but devotes much of her time to highlighting the injustices committed against tens of thousands of young “Dreamers” who came as children and-- even with President Obama’s 2012 directive--are still having trouble getting legal. quote:Oscar was allowed to come back to the United States and join the Army, where he served with distinction in Afghanistan. At present, he’s the only one working in a STEM-related business. Somehow I assume they would have done better if they were citizens. I'm confused as to what you think the cause of undocumented students being forced into poverty is.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:41
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enraged_camel posted:Well, considering that one of the guys enrolled in community college and then got kicked out... That is correct. He was removed because he had no legal right to enroll. It is also likely a fact that he submitted falsed information to the school. College entry forms clearly require you to truthfully submit the status of your immigration status upon request for admission. You are also correct. No one did explicitly say that they should be as successful as the MIT students in writing. However, why were the MIT students used as a figure of merit for comparison? Is it not implicit in this article's reasoning, and indeed this documentary's, that these kids could have been as successful as the MIT students if, as you say, they were given a "chance"? For your claim that that they were not given a chance, that is also correct. They lack the requisite legal status to actively participate in the formal American economy. My point is that it is absurd to conjecture that by merely winning a robotics competition a student has an equal chance to acheive any type of financial success than runner-up student.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:54
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vssrio23 posted:That is correct. He was removed because he had no legal right to enroll. It is also likely a fact that he submitted falsed information to the school. College entry forms clearly require you to truthfully submit the status of your immigration status upon request for admission. It said he dropped out because Arizona passed a law that restricted aid from undocumented immigrants. quote:You are also correct. No one did explicitly say that they should be as successful as the MIT students in writing. However, why were the MIT students used as a figure of merit for comparison? Is it not implicit in this article's reasoning, and indeed this documentary's, that these kids could have been as successful as the MIT students if, as you say, they were given a "chance"? Generally people from MIT are considered, you know, smart and successful. quote:My point is that it is absurd to conjecture that by merely winning a robotics competition a student has an equal chance to acheive any type of financial success than runner-up student.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:58
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Cercadelmar posted:Somehow I assume they would have done better if they were citizens. I'm confused as to what you think the cause of undocumented students being forced into poverty is. One should not assume such things that they do not intricately understand. I do not myself believe I am confused by the question of why illegal immigrants and residents have depressed earnings in the formal economy. What I am confused about is why a winning a robotics competition is sign that a student will be successful in the adult world.
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Jul 26, 2014 17:59
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vssrio23 posted:One should not assume such things that they do not intricately understand. Generally people who are smart enough to beat MIT students at a competition that requires skills in engineering, math and robotics have the ability and requisite skills to be successful in the adult world. What is so controversial about this statement? You're being incredibly obtuse.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:04
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vssrio23 posted:However, why were the MIT students used as a figure of merit for comparison? Is it not implicit in this article's reasoning, and indeed this documentary's, that these kids could have been as successful as the MIT students if, as you say, they were given a "chance"? The point the documentary makes is, look, these guys are smart enough and skilled enough to beat a group of people from one of the nation's top universities in an advanced technical competition when they had neither the same level of education nor the same level of resources to realistically be able to do so. By not giving them and those like them the right to become a part of American society, the US is losing out on a lot. As for the conjecture itself, it's definitely not absurd if you understand how admissions departments work. If these guys were legal residents, they would be able to leverage their victory in the competition to have a very good chance of being admitted to a top university, possibly even with scholarship.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:07
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vssrio23 posted:One should not assume such things that they do not intricately understand. Your argument is just strange. Like, yeah winning a robotics competition doesn't mean they'll be successful MIT super engineers. What it does mean is that they're good enough at robotics, engineering, and writing to be able to win in a college robotics competition as high school students. It's not a huge leap to assume they would do well with more education. Unrelated, but man do you have a weird style to your posts. Use a contraction please, reading them makes me type like you and it just feels off.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:15
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enraged_camel posted:The point the documentary makes is, look, these guys are smart enough and skilled enough to beat a group of people from one of the nation's top universities in an advanced technical competition when they had neither the same level of education nor the same level of resources to realistically be able to do so. By not giving them and those like them the right to become a part of American society, the US is losing out on a lot. What is the percentage is this "very good chance"? More importantly, after going to this "top university", how do you know each one of these students will be able to mimic their success at the competition during 4 years of advanced-level courses? Do you know know their grades, attendance, discplinary record, or any of their other qualifications? Is the only thing that gives you faith in them a politicized robotics competition?
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Jul 26, 2014 18:18
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vssrio23 posted:What is the percentage is this "very good chance"? More importantly, after going to this "top university", how do you know each one of these students will be able to mimic their success at the competition during 4 years of advanced-level courses? Hahaha what is this? Either they're perfect students so being illegal immigrants doesn't matter or they're hooligans and so we shouldn't change the law.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:22
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Please, unless their advisors did literally all of the work they had to learn something about mechanical design; electrical design, machining, soldering and programming between them. These skills alone are enough to get a decent engineering tech job.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:25
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vssrio23 posted:Do you know know their grades, attendance, discplinary record, or any of their other qualifications? Is the only thing that gives you faith in them a politicized robotics competition? You didn't see the movie. The contest was way back in '04 and not very politicized. They won because their robot genuinely did well in the water and they understood how their robot did well enough to write and do presentations about it to the judges. I don't understand why you're being such a pedant about something you didn't even see.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:25
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vssrio23 posted:What is the percentage is this "very good chance"? More importantly, after going to this "top university", how do you know each one of these students will be able to mimic their success at the competition during 4 years of advanced-level courses? Are you the creation from a different years robotics competitions, jesus loving christ?
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Jul 26, 2014 18:27
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Cercadelmar posted:Your argument is just strange. Like, yeah winning a robotics competition doesn't mean they'll be successful MIT super engineers. What it does mean is that they're good enough at robotics, engineering, and writing to be able to win in a college robotics competition as high school students. It's not a huge leap to assume they would do well with more education. That is correct, they did win the competition. What is unestablished is whether they have the character and aptitude for sustained performance to achieve financial successful after the competition. Winning a competition such as that is not a measure of one's future potential so much as it is a result of what one has already done. Your claim effectively assumes that the past result (the competition) is an indicator of future performance from the students. At its heart, this is a fallacious argument.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:29
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vssrio23 posted:That is correct, they did win the competition. What is unestablished is whether they have the character and aptitude for sustained performance to achieve financial successful after the competition. Winning a competition such as that is not a measure of one's future potential so much as it is a result of what one has already done. Your claim effectively assumes that the past result (the competition) is an indicator of future performance from the students. vssrio23, you're no fishmech.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:33
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Just as spergy as fishmech, but with the most unpleasing way of typing.
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Jul 26, 2014 18:45
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vssrio23 posted:What is the percentage is this "very good chance"? 68.77%
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Jul 26, 2014 18:59
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enraged_camel posted:68.77% 420.1488% I think vssrio23 just read an "Arguments for Dummies" book or something because this is the weirdest posting I have ever seen. edit: he's a BFC poster, this explains everything Badger of Basra fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Jul 26, 2014 |
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Jul 26, 2014 19:51
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Amused to Death posted:Just as spergy as fishmech, but with the most unpleasing way of typing. Nah, someone who actually had Asperger's would be more likely to sympathize with the students simply on grounds of "they could have had excellent careers that involved minimal human interaction and/or emotional processing".
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Jul 26, 2014 19:53
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vssrio23 posted:Your claim effectively assumes that the past result (the competition) is an indicator of future performance from the students. It's false in the stock market, sure. But how much individuals can/will achieve is actually pretty well predicted by how much they already have. Relative to their circumstances of course. People != Tesla stock, bro.
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Jul 26, 2014 20:31
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vssrio23 posted:That is correct, they did win the competition. What is unestablished is whether they have the character and aptitude for sustained performance to achieve financial successful after the competition. Winning a competition such as that is not a measure of one's future potential so much as it is a result of what one has already done. Your claim effectively assumes that the past result (the competition) is an indicator of future performance from the students. Past results are absolutely a predictor or indicator of future results, or there would be no point in modeling the stock market. The phrase you are thinking is "guarantees future results". Hell there would be no point in admission standards at all- picking randomly from high schools would be just as effective as any other method if there were no correlations. tsa fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 14:11
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vssrio23 posted:What is the percentage is this "very good chance"? More importantly, after going to this "top university", how do you know each one of these students will be able to mimic their success at the competition during 4 years of advanced-level courses? I hope the young illegal immigrants that programmed this chatbot get citizenship.
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Jul 28, 2014 22:11
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Maddow reporting (see also HuffPo) that Obama is returning from his vacation early to pursue unilateral executive action on immigration reform for DREAMers.
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Aug 14, 2014 02:55
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