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Cenodoxus
Mar 29, 2012

while [[ true ]] ; do
    pour()
done

Nobody else posted a new thread yet so I did the needful. Content to follow.

What is this thread?
This thread is for day-to-day discussion about working in IT - career questions and advice, how to get started, how to get ahead , how to not gently caress yourself over, etc. are all welcome here in addition to the daily chit-chat. There are other threads in SH/SC covering specific IT topics like More poo poo that pisses you off and The IT Certification Megathread. It's fine to talk about those things here in a generic or career-oriented sense, but workplace-induced rage or specific questions about how to get your certs are better off in their respective threads.

What is IT?
IT in its most generic sense refers to the field of Information Technology.

Information Technology: (1) The study or use of systems (especially computers and telecommunications) for storing, retrieving, and sending information; (2) the technology involving the development, maintenance, and use of computer systems, software, and networks for the processing and distribution of data.

The IT field encompasses a wide array of roles and responsibilities, from help desk technicians to database administrators, and everything in between. Popular job titles in IT include:
  • Administrator
  • Architect
  • Analyst
  • Engineer
  • Technician
These titles are usually prefaced with some keyword like System, Network, Technical, Virtualization, etc. to specify a concentration or specialization. This list is in no way exhaustive and is in no particular order of importance. Any attempts to define exact parameters for an "IT job" usually fail miserably or devolve into a "true Scotsman" pissing match. IT is many things, and many things are IT.

What do IT people do?
Everything. An IT professional can be a generalist or jack-of-all-trades, meaning they learn a little about a lot of topics and solutions, and do pretty well for themselves. Others find success in specializing in a given product or solution, mastering the ins and outs and dedicating their entire career (or a portion thereof) to it.

I know how to computer. How do I get a job in IT?
This is a tough question to answer, hence we must generalize. IT isn't a very structured or well-organized field like Engineering or medicine where job titles and qualifications are overseen by a regulatory body. For 90% of you reading this thread, everything I'm about to say could be dead wrong.

Some people in IT start out at a help desk or some other entry-level user support team. These teams handle and resolve technology issues for users in an organization. They are typically the first line of support for end users and are often called "tier 1". The prerequisite for a help desk role is usually a decent understanding of computer hardware and software components, and the ability to learn quickly and think critically. From my own experience, working at a help desk gave me the opportunity to touch many different parts of the organization's IT infrastructure and get a feel for what interested me most. All organizations are different, however, and some help desks are more scripted or process-driven than others, so there may be less room for growth or professional development. Your mileage may vary. In any event, showing an interest in more advanced topics and demonstrating your ability to learn and master new things is a reasonably effective way of breaking out of the shitstorm that is the tier 1 help desk.

Others with existing knowledge or certifications in a particular technology can jump straight into an Administrator role. Whereas the help desk focuses more on user support, an Administrator role typically supports the systems themselves - applying patches, setting up or restoring backups, resolving issues escalated from the help desk, etc.

More advanced roles include Engineers, Architects, Analysts, and a whole slew of other possible titles. Engineers, Architects, and the like typically are more focused on implementing changes into existing systems or designing new systems altogether. Landing one of these positions usually requires a few years of experience, some of which could be substituted with a college degree. An Architect role tends to require 5+ years of specific experience with a given vendor solution, and usually a certification or two to go with it.

Certifications

BaseballPCHiker posted:

You're new to IT and you want to take some first steps towards advancing your career. Great, we have a certification megathread here that can answer most of your questions and give you some idea of what they cover and where they can lead to. But what I want to mention is that talk is cheap! I think a lot of new people make the mistake of planning out their entire career and what certs they will get in what order and spend all of their time on this instead of hitting the books and just working on what's in front of you. Decide on a cert and work on it! Don't let up until you're done and then take the time to plan your next step. The perfect plan is useless if you never put it in motion.

Resumes and Interviewing
I'll keep this short and IT-specific since BFC has an entire megathread dedicated to this. Resumes make the first impression on your prospective employer. Take your time and do it right.

When writing your resume for a job in IT, keep in mind that most companies are different. For the sake of the reader, keep organizational lingo out of it where possible. Also stick to highlighting things that you excelled at vs. just did. I don't care that you answered the phone when someone called. Use that bullet point and tell me briefly about an uncommon problem that you solved, or a process that you improved. Use hard numbers. Resist the urge to get artsy. If you're not in a creative field like graphics or web design, stick with conservative typefaces.

Tailor your resume to the job you're applying for. Pull keywords from the listing and use them in your resume where appropriate - don't just smatter them all over the page like alphabet soup. Don't puff up your resume thinking that it will help your chances. If you're not comfortable answering questions about some technology on the spot, don't put it on your resume. I would feel more comfortable hiring the guy who didn't know anything about Active Directory but was willing to learn than I would the guy who claimed to know but couldn't tell me the difference between a forest, tree, and domain.

Guidelines for interviews are fairly universal, but one of the main differences in IT is the dress code. For relaxed or casual companies, overdressing for an interview is possible. At some STARTUP CULTURE companies, it could put you out of the running entirely. At larger companies you'll be safe in a suit and tie. Smaller companies are a toss-up. Do your research on the organization, their geographic location, and their public image. If you have friends or acquaintances on the inside, ask them.

Resources
Many thanks to the countless goons who have contributed to the following threads for the benefit of all:

That's all I have time to write for now. If you'd like to add something to the OP, feel free to discuss it below.

48 14 0 DAYS POSTED WITHOUT A MELTDOWN.
GOOD POSTS ARE NO ACCIDENT! KEEP ARE FORUMS SAFE!

Cenodoxus fucked around with this message at Nov 29, 2014 around 02:23

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skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


This thread should try to stay focused on working in IT environments, how to get a job in IT, how to move up in IT, and be more career focused. We already have bitching thread, ticket thread, certification thread, and specific discipline threads (Enterprise Windows, Storage, VMware, Exchange, etc).

quote:

Information Technology
The study or use of systems (especially computers and telecommunications) for storing, retrieving, and sending information.

IT is an extremely broad field, and covers a lot of people.

DrAlexanderTobacco
Jun 11, 2012

Help me find my true dharma

Might as well start this off with some bragging!

Got a new job. 5k raise, mostly the same sort of stuff I'm doing now. Not exactly the upward movement I was looking for, but my old company was acquired recently and they're shifting direction a tad.

I was asked in the interview if I had any experience with Linux servers. I said no, but I at least know not to run rm -rf * - which got a few laughs, and I got to feel all

CLAM DOWN
Feb 13, 2007

RICKARUS


It's Moot baby!


skipdogg posted:

This thread should try to stay focused on working in IT environments, how to get a job in IT, how to move up in IT, and be more career focused.

I disagree, this is a technical subforum about hardware and software, not about job interviews or social tips. I feel this thread should be focused on the technical aspect of IT, there are specific subforums like this one for career and salary related things.

Japanese Dating Sim
Nov 12, 2003

hehe

Lipstick Apathy

Alternatively, this thread could just be a continuation of the last one, which went swimmingly. I kind of thought this was assumed...

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


It'll disintegrate into it sooner or later, so it's pretty pointless.

Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!


Edit: nvm

Fiendish Dr. Wu fucked around with this message at Jul 28, 2014 around 22:08

Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up


Seems like a fairly chaotic place to work, I would really be looking in the background regardless.

I will say that with what I understand about your background I would be careful about titling myself "Enterprise Architect". So with that said, as long as you are keeping your eyes open, soak up as much experience as you can and hope for the best. Get your boss and whoever else you can on your side. Find discreet ways to let the right people know you're kicking rear end. Play the game!



I also like the way the thread was going, minus the occasional alcohol-fueled dips into E/N territory.

Cenodoxus
Mar 29, 2012

while [[ true ]] ; do
    pour()
done

Japanese Dating Sim posted:

Alternatively, this thread could just be a continuation of the last one, which went swimmingly. I kind of thought this was assumed...

skipdogg posted:

It'll disintegrate into it sooner or later, so it's pretty pointless.

I take most new threads to be a continuation of the old, so

And nobody reads the OP anyway

DrAlexanderTobacco posted:

Might as well start this off with some bragging!

Got a new job. 5k raise, mostly the same sort of stuff I'm doing now. Not exactly the upward movement I was looking for, but my old company was acquired recently and they're shifting direction a tad.

I was asked in the interview if I had any experience with Linux servers. I said no, but I at least know not to run rm -rf * - which got a few laughs, and I got to feel all

Nicely done! Was Linux part of the job listing or did they throw that question in for their own curiosity?

Fiendish Dr. Wu
Nov 11, 2010

You done fucked up now!


Dark Helmut posted:

Seems like a fairly chaotic place to work, I would really be looking in the background regardless.

I will say that with what I understand about your background I would be careful about titling myself "Enterprise Architect". So with that said, as long as you are keeping your eyes open, soak up as much experience as you can and hope for the best. Get your boss and whoever else you can on your side. Find discreet ways to let the right people know you're kicking rear end. Play the game!



I also like the way the thread was going, minus the occasional alcohol-fueled dips into E/N territory.

Yeah it really is. It's been very chaotic.

And I agree about the title, I really don't go throwing out around, however it is the title. I was just putting it out there because that's how it hit me. 3 months left on this contract, we'll see how it goes.

Comradephate
Feb 28, 2009


College Slice

DrAlexanderTobacco posted:

Might as well start this off with some bragging!

Got a new job. 5k raise, mostly the same sort of stuff I'm doing now. Not exactly the upward movement I was looking for, but my old company was acquired recently and they're shifting direction a tad.

I was asked in the interview if I had any experience with Linux servers. I said no, but I at least know not to run rm -rf * - which got a few laughs, and I got to feel all

rm -rf * won't do anything on a modern system.

You have to run rm -rf * --no-preserve-root or rm -rf /* if you want to wipe out the system for some reason.

(congrats on the new job!)

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006
I CANNOT HANDLE BEING CALLED OUT ON MY DUMBASS OPINIONS ABOUT ANTI-VIRUS AND SECURITY. I REALLY LIKE TO THINK THAT I KNOW THINGS HERE

INSTEAD I AM GOING TO WHINE ABOUT IT IN OTHER THREADS SO MY OPINION CAN FEEL VALIDATED IN AN ECHO CHAMBER I LIKE


I have one suggestion for the OP as this comes up constantly.

Certifications.
You're new to IT and you want to take some first steps towards advancing your career. Great, we have a certification megathread here that can answer most of your questions and give you some idea of what they cover and where they can lead to. But what I want to mention is that talk is cheap! I think a lot of new people make the mistake of planning out their entire career and what certs they will get in what order and spend all of their time on this instead of hitting the books and just working on what's in front of you. Decide on a cert and work on it! Don't let up until you're done and then take the time to plan your next step. The perfect plan is useless if you never put it in motion.

Cenodoxus
Mar 29, 2012

while [[ true ]] ; do
    pour()
done

BaseballPCHiker posted:

I have one suggestion for the OP as this comes up constantly.

Well put, I've added that to the OP.

Sarcasmatron
Apr 23, 2004

Fun is important.


Salary negotiations is another recurring one that pops up every 2-3 pages. This is the one I've recommended in the last two Working in IT threads, the LI thread, and the Stairmasters LI group:

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Japanese Dating Sim
Nov 12, 2003

hehe

Lipstick Apathy

while keeping the same job - director told me he wanted to put me through a VMWare course and would be paying for it. I agreed, I don't turn down free legitimate learning chances. Told my manager about it, he said that was probably in response to his recommending me for a server admin job they've had open here for a few months. I'm drastically under-qualified/experienced for it, but they like what I've done so far, and this class is part of them preparing me for it (potentially). Manager also said he wanted to bump my salary up like 7k. Whether this will happen remains to be seen (I'm still on probation for about 2 more months), but still.

This is basically all due entirely to me coming in and being like "Why are we not using USMT/ImageX/MDT here?" and deciding to use them to make my job easier. So... thanks, Microsoft, for making me look good I guess!

rocket
Aug 16, 2002

LLLLLLLLLLL
LLLLLLLLLLL
LLLLLADIES!


Comradephate posted:

rm -rf * won't do anything on a modern system.

You have to run rm -rf * --no-preserve-root or rm -rf /* if you want to wipe out the system for some reason.

(congrats on the new job!)

In a previous job, one of the regular maintenance tasks was manually deleting old deleted email from the email servers. You had to go into the directory and do 'rm -rf *' to clear it out and make space when the servers started to get full. the path was something like /taurus/home/users/trash. I accidently did this from one directory above, when I had already been up all night on call. Luckily my genius boss used DRBD to mirror the servers, and figured out how to restore the data from the shadow copy/cache, but it still took more than a day to restore.
I was told the method for doing this maintenance, but was told after the fact there was also a script I could run.

This was even on CentOS, but not with SELinux features turned on.

I had a similar slip-up doing manual SQL database updates in MySQL something like 'update users=suspended where a equals'. Basically I didn't complete the statement and accidently hit enter, so it affected a poo poo-ton of users and froze up the MySQL server for a while.

This was when I thought maybe I had ADHD... (and I did.)

rocket fucked around with this message at Jul 28, 2014 around 19:41

Comradephate
Feb 28, 2009


College Slice

rocket posted:

In a previous job, one of the regular maintenance tasks was manually deleting old deleted email from the email servers. You had to go into the directory and do 'rm -rf *' to clear it out and make space when the servers started to get full. the path was something like /taurus/home/users/trash. I accidently did this from one directory above, when I had already been up all night on call. Luckily my genius boss used DRBD to mirror the servers, and figured out how to restore the data from the shadow copy/cache, but it still took more than a day to restore.
I was told the method for doing this maintenance, but was told after the fact there was also a script I could run.

This was even on CentOS, but not the secure version.

I had a similar slip-up doing manual SQL database updates in MySQL something like 'update users=suspended where a equals'. Basically I didn't complete the statement and accidently hit enter, so it affected a poo poo-ton of users and froze up the MySQL server for a while.

This was when I thought maybe I had ADHD... (and I did.)

It's okay, what I read the thing I replied to as was rm -rf /, not rm -rf *

Me dumb, no read.

rm -rf * will work anywhere, and it's appropriate at times, but yeah, you have to be careful.

rocket
Aug 16, 2002

LLLLLLLLLLL
LLLLLLLLLLL
LLLLLADIES!


Ok, I guess SELinux is mostly for protecting system memory from malicious programs.

MC Fruit Stripe
Nov 26, 2002

When life gives you lemons DANCE DANCE DANCE!

Paid in part by CF


Sarcasmatron posted:

Salary negotiations is another recurring one that pops up every 2-3 pages. This is the one I've recommended in the last two Working in IT threads, the LI thread, and the Stairmasters LI group:

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/
It's a great article, but yelling "SIX FIGGA BEEYOTCH" is a lot more effective than you might imagine, so just remember there are a few approaches here.

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

rocket posted:

Ok, I guess SELinux is mostly for protecting system memory from malicious programs.

SELinux is does a lot more than that, but it's way beyond the scope of this discussion. It doesn't protect you from yourself, though (it can, but not in default config, and Linux facls can also protect the system from root doing this, but also beyond the scope).

Always check (especially in scripts that blindly "cd /somedir; rm -rf *"), never "rm -rf .*", etc.

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006
I CANNOT HANDLE BEING CALLED OUT ON MY DUMBASS OPINIONS ABOUT ANTI-VIRUS AND SECURITY. I REALLY LIKE TO THINK THAT I KNOW THINGS HERE

INSTEAD I AM GOING TO WHINE ABOUT IT IN OTHER THREADS SO MY OPINION CAN FEEL VALIDATED IN AN ECHO CHAMBER I LIKE


Thinking of going to Office 365. I'm worried about moving our exchange, sharepoint, and lync hosting off site. Anyone have any experience migrating? Any annoying day to day outages?

rocket
Aug 16, 2002

LLLLLLLLLLL
LLLLLLLLLLL
LLLLLADIES!


evol262 posted:

SELinux is does a lot more than that, but it's way beyond the scope of this discussion. It doesn't protect you from yourself, though (it can, but not in default config, and Linux facls can also protect the system from root doing this, but also beyond the scope).

Always check (especially in scripts that blindly "cd /somedir; rm -rf *"), never "rm -rf .*", etc.

It's just nice to know that it can be done. Thanks!

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


BaseballPCHiker posted:

Thinking of going to Office 365. I'm worried about moving our exchange, sharepoint, and lync hosting off site. Anyone have any experience migrating? Any annoying day to day outages?

O365 has it's outages, but overall I have no regrets moving to the service.

Exchange migration isn't too bad, I highly suggest using Migrationwiz to do it. The native tools are there, but Migrationwiz is worth it. Lync is great, we don't use Sharepoint just yet, it does have some limitations.

O365 has had a few well publicized outages, overall though it's been nice.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair


Sarcasmatron posted:

Salary negotiations is another recurring one that pops up every 2-3 pages. This is the one I've recommended in the last two Working in IT threads, the LI thread, and the Stairmasters LI group:

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

I've been responding to the "What was your previous compensation?" or "Well what are you looking for?" questions with stuff from that article and it's like talking to a wall. I really want to just take a "radical honesty" approach to job interviewing and just respond with "I'm not going to answer that, because it will only serve to poison the well for both of us: I'll either price myself out of the position or you'll underpay me and I'll leave in 6 months anyway."

evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

rocket posted:

It's just nice to know that it can be done. Thanks!

If you're really curious about it, there are a bunch of docs I could link you. But setting contexts is going to be a PITA unless you really love SElinux. facls are dated, but "man setfacl" will get you started on protecting things from root without the rigamarole of selinux.

lampey
Mar 27, 2012



BaseballPCHiker posted:

Thinking of going to Office 365. I'm worried about moving our exchange, sharepoint, and lync hosting off site. Anyone have any experience migrating? Any annoying day to day outages?

If you are comparing O365 to rackspace/apptix/appriver hosting it is better than most at a similar cost. Compared to an on premises server you are making a lot of trade offs. For a small organization the fixed costs like licensing and hardware combined with the ongoing infrastructure needed to support it make hosted a more cost effective solution. Then you have to consider the ongoing costs like the power bill and potential for expansion. The benefit is that you can save bandwidth for internal mail, you have more flexibility with exchange add ons like CodeTwo, and when something breaks you don't have to wait on a third party to fix it. O365 has good integration with Microsofts other offerings like EOP for spam, archiving, encryption, sharepoint, lync. The Lync hosting is great compared to what is required to do it yourself.

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006
I CANNOT HANDLE BEING CALLED OUT ON MY DUMBASS OPINIONS ABOUT ANTI-VIRUS AND SECURITY. I REALLY LIKE TO THINK THAT I KNOW THINGS HERE

INSTEAD I AM GOING TO WHINE ABOUT IT IN OTHER THREADS SO MY OPINION CAN FEEL VALIDATED IN AN ECHO CHAMBER I LIKE


lampey posted:

If you are comparing O365 to rackspace/apptix/appriver hosting it is better than most at a similar cost. Compared to an on premises server you are making a lot of trade offs. For a small organization the fixed costs like licensing and hardware combined with the ongoing infrastructure needed to support it make hosted a more cost effective solution. Then you have to consider the ongoing costs like the power bill and potential for expansion. The benefit is that you can save bandwidth for internal mail, you have more flexibility with exchange add ons like CodeTwo, and when something breaks you don't have to wait on a third party to fix it. O365 has good integration with Microsofts other offerings like EOP for spam, archiving, encryption, sharepoint, lync. The Lync hosting is great compared to what is required to do it yourself.

Thanks, the exchange hosting doesn't seem like to big of a deal for us and I've worked with Exchange for so long now I don't even really think all that much more about it. Still one less thing for us to have to worry about and we could easily ramp up our storage. Lync would be huge for us. I hate dealing with the million little problems that seem to point up with our Lync server or the user client.

Mostly I was just worried about outages. I've heard of the national outages of course but hear horror stories about some small businesses having monthly 4 hour outages.

lampey
Mar 27, 2012



Out of the 30 or so of out clients with 0365 email 20 of them were not affected at all by the recent largest outage. The others have not had any "major issues" just a couple hours of time when email was degraded but all messages were eventually delivered. Also all of them use EOP or FOPE for spam filtering.

You could go with a non microsoft spam filter to keep your mail stored somewhere in case of a microsoft outage, or a hybrid deployment. Anecdotally we have had better uptime percentage and fewer issues with Microsoft for email hosting than with other exchange hosting providers, but worse than most of the email only hosting companies like Google. It's hard to compare availability to an on prem exchange server because it depends a lot on what kind of internet access and how many remote users you have. It's pretty nice to have everyone on 25/50gb mailboxes with all of their email searchable and available on mobile devices.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

Bless you, ants. Blants.




Fun Shoe

I look after probably 800 mailboxes spread across a bunch of different O365 tenants (I work at an MSP), some are tiny 5-person companies, some have 150 people across the world. I haven't got a bad word to say about the availability of the service.

Daylen Drazzi
Mar 10, 2007

Why do I root for Notre Dame? Because I like pain, and disappointment, and anguish. Notre Dame Football has destroyed more dreams than the Irish Potato Famine, and that is the kind of suffering I can get behind.

Inspector_666 posted:

I've been responding to the "What was your previous compensation?" or "Well what are you looking for?" questions with stuff from that article and it's like talking to a wall. I really want to just take a "radical honesty" approach to job interviewing and just respond with "I'm not going to answer that, because it will only serve to poison the well for both of us: I'll either price myself out of the position or you'll underpay me and I'll leave in 6 months anyway."

I was speaking with a recruiter last week and after a couple minutes of playing that game I finally told her that each time she asked me to name a figure I was mentally adding $10k to the amount I thought the position was worth. She asked me quietly what the total was up to and started laughing when I told her $280k (she had been really pushy about the salary amount and just wouldn't take "no comment" for an answer). She thanked me for my time and told me she would make a note in their system to call me when there's something that interests me, and to not push on the dollar amount.

Sarcasmatron
Apr 23, 2004

Fun is important.


MC Fruit Stripe posted:

It's a great article, but yelling "SIX FIGGA BEEYOTCH" is a lot more effective than you might imagine, so just remember there are a few approaches here.

The part about the article I think is the most effective and has served me well is the notion that while salary is an emotionally charged topic for me, it's a cell in a spreadsheet for them - it's helped me negotiate an extra 40K in *additional* salary over the last 3 years. Obviously YMMV.

I don't discuss salary with recruiters until it's offer time. If they insist, then they can provide a range. If they won't give a range then that's a flare in the road for me.

Xenoletum
Jul 7, 2009

{Internal Release}{inside}{Miqo'te}{rear}.
{Can I have it?}


I bitched about the network situation at my job and how everything is about to go off of our network.

Well, a few days ago we found out that we are expanding and adding another office to our growing company.(It's a staffing agency, after all). I proposed one more time that we go with a VPN link from that office to our corporation and use this chance to test out some future ideas. It got approved and I spent the day working on our Watchguard XTM getting the devices to talk to each other. When the ping -t finally went from Request Timed Out to a proper reply, I almost shouted in joy.

Some devices at the moment aren't replying, mostly ones on a different gateway, and everything on the other side of the VPN is not begin blocked by our web filter, but I'm told that I have to add static routes to the right devices. My boss is going to add them to the devices that I do not have access to at some point during the week, whenever he gets a chance, as he's currently hard at work all this week putting around on his boat. Hopefully tomorrow goes just as good for me with progress on this and I don't run into any more brick walls.

Been told that I'm only holding myself back there by not taking initiative and proving myself and that they can't pay me what they want to pay me because I'm not doing the level of work for what they want to pay me. Hopefully this shows them that I am worth what they want and I get bumped up.

psydude
Mar 31, 2008

Perry'd.


Sarcasmatron posted:

The part about the article I think is the most effective and has served me well is the notion that while salary is an emotionally charged topic for me, it's a cell in a spreadsheet for them - it's helped me negotiate an extra 40K in *additional* salary over the last 3 years. Obviously YMMV.

I don't discuss salary with recruiters until it's offer time. If they insist, then they can provide a range. If they won't give a range then that's a flare in the road for me.

I've found internal recruiters are a lot easier to work with salary wise. Whenever they ask me about salary I usually ask them what the range is they were given by the hiring manager, and they're very upfront about it.

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


In my experience they always try and push for me to talk about Salary first. I just say "more" and laugh until they give me a range. I hope they get that i'm being jokey.

Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up


In general, agency recruiters get paid a percentage of your first year's salary, so it's in our best interest to get you as much as we can. If I am talking you down, it's because I know other candidates are more qualified at that level or something along those lines.

Bob Morales
Aug 18, 2006

HYPER-THREADING


Dark Helmut posted:

In general, agency recruiters get paid a percentage of your first year's salary, so it's in our best interest to get you as much as we can. If I am talking you down, it's because I know other candidates are more qualified at that level or something along those lines.

Isn't it more like a realtor, where they'd rather sell the house and get the commission instead of risking it for an extra thousand bucks or two?

Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up


Bob Morales posted:

Isn't it more like a realtor, where they'd rather sell the house and get the commission instead of risking it for an extra thousand bucks or two?

My job is to represent you and get you the best chance to get the job, using my knowledge of the market conditions and other candidates (like a realtor). So sometimes it boils down to having that honest conversation - Look Bob, I can submit you at 90K, but you're going against Joe who is also at 90K and has 3 more years exp and a CCNP whereas you only have a CCNA, so why don't we go in at $85K?

If I'm talking you down in salary, it's for a reason and I'm going to be clear about it. But in our first face to face interview we have already talked about your salary target/range. Which is again why I've harped on building relationships with a local recruiter or two that you trust. The good ones care about their reputation in the market and building business via referrals. It's in my best interest to get what you want, so you stay with my client - who in turn gives me more work and because you're happy you send me more of your friends/coworkers.

Inspector_666
Oct 7, 2003

benny with the good hair


I find recruiters to be much more like used car salesmen than realtors. I mean, in NYS at least realtors have to take a licensing exam.

Recruiters just call and leave voicemails of them talking really fast and breathlessly about a great job opportunity with an anonymous company doing something vague and the compensation is always magically tied to my previous salary!

BaseballPCHiker
Jan 16, 2006
I CANNOT HANDLE BEING CALLED OUT ON MY DUMBASS OPINIONS ABOUT ANTI-VIRUS AND SECURITY. I REALLY LIKE TO THINK THAT I KNOW THINGS HERE

INSTEAD I AM GOING TO WHINE ABOUT IT IN OTHER THREADS SO MY OPINION CAN FEEL VALIDATED IN AN ECHO CHAMBER I LIKE


I know that good recruiters exist, or want to believe they do, but I've never actually met one first hand. The last one I had was OK, got me my current gig but I never met them face to face, had all of 3 phone calls with them and that was it. Not bad at all but I felt that all they brought to the table was the job opening that was it.

On the other hand a single recruiter in my office has placed roughly 6-7 people in high up spots because HR and management trust her judgement so much. She's the first person they look towards when they get a hard to fill spot. This recruiter has probably made a fortune off from us by being honest and producing good candidates.

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Dark Helmut
Jul 24, 2004

All growns up


A good tip-off is that they actually WANT to meet you first hand. I typically don't submit anyone to a client without meeting them in person first.

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