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Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

Bless You Ants, Blants



Fun Shoe

CPColin posted:

Don't get me started on the multiple sets of credentials that are in our (private) GitHub!

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Scientist Al Gore
May 20, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


KillHour posted:

Real world is not writing code in front of you. Stop asking people to write code with you standing there because a lot of people can't do it and it's not something anyone will ever need to do outside of a bad interview. My last interview, I brought a printed out page of code I was particularly proud of and explained how it worked. That's fine, and I said you can give them a project to complete before they show up. Having someone try to bodge together an underspecified function while you watch is pointless.

If people are uncomfortable writing code, that's fine!

KillHour posted:

If they want to do that, then fine, I guess. Stanley sounds like a weird guy. But don't expect them to.

Not everyone is a 10x engineer like Stanley and I'll admit he was hired under extenuating circumstances. Like, I handed him an open laptop, spun it around and handed it to him. Not even sixty seconds later he was hired.

Sometimes, you gotta work under pressure. Granted, Stanley and I don't talk much anymore.

KillHour posted:

Edit: Befiore you try to claim "That's what I was saying all along!" here's your initial post:

Yea, did you miss the "or" or something? Like, you don't have to do all of these things but you need to able to do one of them or something similar.

Scientist Al Gore
May 20, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


mllaneza posted:

Do you not see a difference between giving a developer hours worth of notice that they're going to talk about a specific thing that they already did versus asking someone to whiteboard something cold ?

Who said I don't give them notice? Like, it's not like I'm trying to kill people here.

12 rats tied together
Sep 7, 2006



KillHour posted:

When have you ever needed to do this in the real world? Seriously; I cannot fathom a situation where this would come up.

Constantly. I work remotely full time and roughly half of my job is pair programming, architecture review, or some other collaborative environment where we discuss things over voice chat while someone sketches out psuedocode in their text editor. Full peer review waits until we have a real pull request (with test results etc), but a hire who couldn't contribute to a collaborative coding session is left in a position where basically all they can do is work tickets and implement to spec.

There's a place for that type of person in any organization, certainly, but at my employer the place has an implied time limit and the title for it starts with "Jr.".

Vulture Culture
Jul 14, 2003

I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.


I'd be willing to wager that more engineers get weeded out of interviews for being visibly exasperated at the interviewers' gall, asking them to do a whiteboard coding question, than actually miss the bar for doing it badly

12 rats tied together
Sep 7, 2006



Obviously opinions differ but I'm happy to whiteboard anything, no matter how trivial, because I assume that the whiteboarding session is as equally about my own ability to interpret, communicate intent, work through problems in a group setting, etc, as it is about my ability to actually work through a problem.

I refuse to do hacker rank or any similar bullshit, though.

If you can't tolerate an interviewer asking you to do a fizzbuzz without audibly saying UGH FIZZBUZZ that's an important thing for both parties to notice, in my opinion.

Thanks Ants
May 21, 2004

Bless You Ants, Blants



Fun Shoe

I'm pretty sure I got rejected in an interview process because I asked with surprise "so you're on call all the time and one saturday a month you have to come into the office to patch servers?" and then kept repeating the question just to make sure I was hearing it properly

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007




If you want to see how I collaborate, ask me an interesting engineering problem that isn't trivially solved by using a library or looking up an implementation. If, in the process of collaborating, I whip out a marker and start writing in the whiteboard, it's because that's the best way to get the point across. Every time I've been asked to write code in an interview, I wasn't allowed to ask any questions and they just wanted to see if I can code my way out of a brown paper bag. I'm not saying it can't be done well, but it's so commonly done poorly that I see it as short hand for a lazy interviewer. I've never, ever left a coding interview feeling like I got anything out of it.

22 Eargesplitten
Oct 10, 2010

Also sexism, religious bias, jingoism, and so on. Don't do it, people!

Dogs, don't do it either, even if the police man really tries to train you to do it.



I was thinking that hopping online one Saturday a month to do patching doesn't seem all that odd for in-house IT. Then I realized you said come into the office, and what the gently caress?

It seems pretty standard for places that do in-house IT to do after hours or weekend patching once a month-ish, is that not the case? I work at a NOC, so a lot of my job is patching after hours, but that's not in-house, and also my schedule is like 80% outside of normal business hours, which I'm fine with. Less dealing with customers.

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

I patch once a month from home with a beer in my hand. gently caress going to the office on a weekend unless Iím replacing physical equipment.

Submarine Sandpaper
May 27, 2007



Into the office is weird. Monthly weekend patches for end user visible systems is not. For all systems it is.

TheParadigm
Dec 10, 2009



12 rats tied together posted:

If you can't tolerate an interviewer asking you to do a fizzbuzz without audibly saying UGH FIZZBUZZ that's an important thing for both parties to notice, in my opinion.

Alright, I have a question here!

If someone response to 'augh fizzbuzz' wasn't 'augh fizzbuzz' but 'I prepared for this and I'm sorta sick of dealing with the speedbump step at every job interview ever, SO here's a paper/essay/video blog/ I researched/prepared for this step so we can skip past it smoothly', how would you grade and/or judge it differently?

My reaction to all this is 'Wow, if it comes up a ll the time, why aren't people starting to staple it to their resume?' and say "gee! Great question, glad you asked" and whip out their answer on the spot.


I understand that part of the fizzbuzz test is to see how people approach problem solving live, see their thought process, and sometime weed out applicants who copy-pasted answers and can't explain it on their own - but I also think having your prop on hand and being able to look at it and walk someone else through it is a benefit.

Any of your interviewee's ever saw it coming, were ready to catch the fizz ball and nailed it: how did they do so?

Scientist Al Gore
May 20, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


Thanks Ants posted:

I'm pretty sure I got rejected in an interview process because I asked with surprise "so you're on call all the time and one saturday a month you have to come into the office to patch servers?" and then kept repeating the question just to make sure I was hearing it properly

I'd respond in the most professional way possible - "Looks like there's quite a bit of time spent working off hours. I totally understand that business run 24x7 and it's critical that we keep them going. At one of my past jobs I was regularly on-call for nearly six months straight because the previous contract screwed up an entire migration project. Management understood, we got incentives like extra time off in the summer that came out of a separate PTO Bucket and off hours on-call bonuses. What do you guys get? "

12 rats tied together
Sep 7, 2006



The best interviewee catch-and-nail I've ever personally been involved in was a live whiteboarding exercise where we ask candidates to design a URL shortening service. For probably not very good reasons we did the same exercise for infrastructure candidates as we did for developers, and to handle the difference in domain expertise we just had different expectations for different backgrounds. It's fine if the SRE candidate can't come up with a performant database model, or whatever, and it's fine if software developers don't know best practices for load balancing.

This was probably the 5th or 6th person we'd ever interviewed for the SRE role and previously most candidates had made an effort to meet us at the assignment -- "I'm not a web developer, but, here's what I understand of running a django app" -- and we just hand them magical components throughout the process, stuff like, "okay, so you have some frontend code that will render this in an acceptable way, how about _____", to get them back to their area of domain expertise.

This candidate though dodged the entire question by basically saying they'd just use cnames. Their entire proposed service was like a frontend that proxies a request to route53 to create cnames. All of the usual questions about like, record expiry, web server scalability, etc, get pretty much thrown right out the window and instead we had a conversation about reasons why we might be able to just use cnames instead and the candidate came up with a solid list of limitations but ended it with something like "but, given the anticipated requirements here, the cname service would probably be fine and it would save us engineering effort". Given that we were a startup, they got top marks from us in this exercise and we moved them along in the process.

For something like fizzbuzz though, the entire point of fizzbuzz is that it is just a simple ritual. If you're doing it you are either an absolute moron or you are intentionally screening for people who have googled the ritual and will perform it for you in real time at your request. I don't think that this type of person would be especially impressed with, or satisfied by, a textual representation, in my experience they tend to want the full dog and pony show.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



12 rats tied together posted:

The best interviewee catch-and-nail I've ever personally been involved in was a live whiteboarding exercise where we ask candidates to design a URL shortening service. For probably not very good reasons we did the same exercise for infrastructure candidates as we did for developers, and to handle the difference in domain expertise we just had different expectations for different backgrounds. It's fine if the SRE candidate can't come up with a performant database model, or whatever, and it's fine if software developers don't know best practices for load balancing.

This was probably the 5th or 6th person we'd ever interviewed for the SRE role and previously most candidates had made an effort to meet us at the assignment -- "I'm not a web developer, but, here's what I understand of running a django app" -- and we just hand them magical components throughout the process, stuff like, "okay, so you have some frontend code that will render this in an acceptable way, how about _____", to get them back to their area of domain expertise.

This candidate though dodged the entire question by basically saying they'd just use cnames. Their entire proposed service was like a frontend that proxies a request to route53 to create cnames. All of the usual questions about like, record expiry, web server scalability, etc, get pretty much thrown right out the window and instead we had a conversation about reasons why we might be able to just use cnames instead and the candidate came up with a solid list of limitations but ended it with something like "but, given the anticipated requirements here, the cname service would probably be fine and it would save us engineering effort". Given that we were a startup, they got top marks from us in this exercise and we moved them along in the process.


I like this story and not because I built a url shortener that is in production at my current job using cnames+azure functions

Scientist Al Gore
May 20, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


The Fool posted:

I like this story and not because I built a url shortener that is in production at my current job using cnames+azure functions

Tell me more! This sounds hot as gently caress.

12 rats tied together posted:

I don't think that this type of person would be especially impressed with, or satisfied by, a textual representation, in my experience they tend to want the full dog and pony show.

At the end of the day, there's are always going to be dumb bullshit interview questions. You can't avoid it you just have deal with it. That's my hot take.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





Oven Wrangler

Why would I want to patch servers by hand? Gets updates and reboots during reoccurring downtime windows. Monitoring will catch anything that doesn't come up right. Fix it if it doesn't, move on.

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007




12 rats tied together posted:

The best interviewee catch-and-nail I've ever personally been involved in was a live whiteboarding exercise where we ask candidates to design a URL shortening service. For probably not very good reasons we did the same exercise for infrastructure candidates as we did for developers, and to handle the difference in domain expertise we just had different expectations for different backgrounds. It's fine if the SRE candidate can't come up with a performant database model, or whatever, and it's fine if software developers don't know best practices for load balancing.

This was probably the 5th or 6th person we'd ever interviewed for the SRE role and previously most candidates had made an effort to meet us at the assignment -- "I'm not a web developer, but, here's what I understand of running a django app" -- and we just hand them magical components throughout the process, stuff like, "okay, so you have some frontend code that will render this in an acceptable way, how about _____", to get them back to their area of domain expertise.

This candidate though dodged the entire question by basically saying they'd just use cnames. Their entire proposed service was like a frontend that proxies a request to route53 to create cnames. All of the usual questions about like, record expiry, web server scalability, etc, get pretty much thrown right out the window and instead we had a conversation about reasons why we might be able to just use cnames instead and the candidate came up with a solid list of limitations but ended it with something like "but, given the anticipated requirements here, the cname service would probably be fine and it would save us engineering effort". Given that we were a startup, they got top marks from us in this exercise and we moved them along in the process.

For something like fizzbuzz though, the entire point of fizzbuzz is that it is just a simple ritual. If you're doing it you are either an absolute moron or you are intentionally screening for people who have googled the ritual and will perform it for you in real time at your request. I don't think that this type of person would be especially impressed with, or satisfied by, a textual representation, in my experience they tend to want the full dog and pony show.

You're okay in my book. I'm ranting about the fizzbuzz type poo poo. Like, give me an actual business use case instead of just asking me to rattle off an algorithm for you.

KillHour fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 24, 2020

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



Scientist Al Gore posted:

Tell me more! This sounds hot as gently caress.

Iíve been thinking about publishing it on github, but wanted to build a little ui and an arm template first

I was also thinking about using table storage, where right now Iím just using environment variables

The ui is way more work than the shortener service itself was

The service is split up into 3 parts

The function itself is only like 30 lines of js that look at what url youíre coming from, look up the env variable, then 301 redirect to the destination

The second is azure dns. We have a .cc for our company separate from the .com, so the shortened url will be created as a cname under that domain. ie, newsletter.contoso.cc

The third is some ps + az cli to tie everything together so that you can pass your desired short name and your destination url to the script and it creates the dns record and the env variable for you

Scientist Al Gore
May 20, 2006
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


The Fool posted:

Iíve been thinking about publishing it on github, but wanted to build a little ui and an arm template first

I was also thinking about using table storage, where right now Iím just using environment variables

The ui is way more work than the shortener service itself was

The service is split up into 3 parts

The function itself is only like 30 lines of js that look at what url youíre coming from, look up the env variable, then 301 redirect to the destination

The second is azure dns. We have a .cc for our company separate from the .com, so the shortened url will be created as a cname under that domain. ie, newsletter.contoso.cc

The third is some ps + az cli to tie everything together so that you can pass your desired short name and your destination url to the script and it creates the dns record and the env variable for you

Neat. Why'd you have to use the Azure CLI? Can't you do everything with Powershell?

LochNessMonster
Feb 3, 2005

I need about three fitty




This is the point where Iím confident you are trolling.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



Scientist Al Gore posted:

Neat. Why'd you have to use the Azure CLI? Can't you do everything with Powershell?

Just the easiest path forward at the time. The az ps module was going through some major changes around the time I was building this.

taqueso
Mar 8, 2004









Fun Shoe

LochNessMonster posted:

This is the point where Iím confident you are trolling.

yeah, anyone posting here is 50x or better

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert


taqueso posted:

yeah, anyone posting here is 50x or better

Iím like a 0.1x

Agrikk
Oct 17, 2003

Do not ingest.

CPColin posted:

Don't get me started on the multiple sets of credentials that are in our (private) GitHub!

Stored in a text file on a private S3 bucket that was actually open to public read/write access.

True story brought to you by a customer of mine

BallerBallerDillz
Jun 10, 2009

Cock, Rules, Everything, Around, Me


Scratchmo

Agrikk posted:

Stored in a text file on a private S3 bucket that was actually open to public read/write access.

True story brought to you by a customer of mine

Gotta be Deloitte

Heffer
May 1, 2003



skipdogg posted:

I’m like a 0.1x

I've leveled up to 12z

KillHour
Oct 28, 2007




I don't level, I just get new classes tacked on to the end.

I'm now an Undead Rogue Cleric Fighter with +3 to blank stares.

Twat Waffle
Aug 3, 2004

I luv me some pirate booty, and I'm not talkin' about the gold!

Fun Shoe

BallerBallerDillz posted:

Gotta be Deloitte

I doubt Agrikk was working with Deloitte, if he was, he would have way too many stories and I would've known.

Twat Waffle fucked around with this message at 20:21 on May 25, 2020

Jeoh
Jul 20, 2010




Ahh, Deloitte, posting credentials on GitHub before it was fashionable

Bonzo
Mar 11, 2004

Just like Mama used to make it!


Dinosaur Gum

Jesus H don't get me started on Deloitte.

So I know pluralsight.com was free last month, but I'm curious what everyone else prefers? Linux Academy is cheaper, and seems to just focus on just Cloud technologies.

Just wondering if anyone had some feedback?

Japanese Dating Sim
Nov 12, 2003

hehe

Lipstick Apathy

Work provides CBTNuggets and they are my favorite that I've used. I wouldn't pay for them out of pocket though, way too pricey.

The Fool
Oct 16, 2003



I like Pluralsight and ACloudGuru

CBT is fine, but is expensive and last I checked they were behind on producing content for some newer certifications. (the MS AZ-XXX series, specifically)

LinkedIn Learning (used to be Lynda?) seems to be good too, but I haven't put a lot of time into it.

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

I've been using LinkedIn Learning for the past few months and it's pretty good. A lot of recent Azure stuff. I don't have experience with some of the others, so tough to compare.

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

Cat Army


LinuxAcademy is no ACloudGuru, but it's fine.

Bonzo
Mar 11, 2004

Just like Mama used to make it!


Dinosaur Gum

So it looks like ACloudGuru and LinuxAcademy are now the same as of Dec. 2019. I had no idea.

vivat virtute
Dec 28, 2006


when i die, bury me inside the lambic store






Smellrose

The Iron Rose posted:

LinuxAcademy is no ACloudGuru, but it's fine.

Bonzo posted:

So it looks like ACloudGuru and LinuxAcademy are now the same as of Dec. 2019. I had no idea.

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

Cat Army


hahahahaha gently caress

well I'm taking the GCP Pro Architect course, it's a different instructor, and the ACloudGuru course is different and not available?

So

Bonzo
Mar 11, 2004

Just like Mama used to make it!


Dinosaur Gum


lol right? There's an FAQ where ACloudGuru basically says, "They had much better stuff than we did so we bought the company!"

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MF_James
May 8, 2008
I CANNOT HANDLE BEING CALLED OUT ON MY DUMBASS OPINIONS ABOUT ANTI-VIRUS AND SECURITY. I REALLY LIKE TO THINK THAT I KNOW THINGS HERE

INSTEAD I AM GOING TO WHINE ABOUT IT IN OTHER THREADS SO MY OPINION CAN FEEL VALIDATED IN AN ECHO CHAMBER I LIKE


Bonzo posted:

lol right? There's an FAQ where ACloudGuru basically says, "They had much better stuff than we did so we bought the company!"

That's what pluralsight did with trainsignal (I think the name was trainsignal)

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