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I was feeling kinda bad for DoctorWhat, but then I saw that while everyone was annoyed with him, they weren't really angry. And that's because DoctorWhat is a super-fan, and the 'good' super fans are the ones who won't shut up about their interest because they want others to experience that same joy that they do. It's an honest belief that their life would be better, more enjoyable. And that's a hard motivation to stay mad at. /grouphug edit: And yeah, I said I was going to mainly lurk, I lied. It's just so uncommon on the internet to see people argue but NOT devolve into poo poo-slinging for no reason, and to end with a mutual understanding of "Yeah you have good intention but it's annoying so stop"...there's hope for the internet after all..as long as I don't look anywhere else, I guess. McGann fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 16:33
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How ironic that a thread made for shifting on Doctor Who has brought us all together as one big family. Now, lets go back to arguing about Moffat in the main thread.
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Aug 10, 2014 16:57
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Just a reminder: I still think you're all huge nerds and would like to give you all, oxx especially, furious noogies
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Aug 10, 2014 17:07
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Yeah DoctorWhat is hard to stay annoyed at, especially because some of the BF audios are pretty great, like Scherzo. I hope he sticks around to talk about the episodes reviewed, as they come up.
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Aug 10, 2014 17:13
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Doctor Who "Father's Day" Series 1, Episode 8 Okay let's just get this out of the way first, let's just rip this band-aid off: I'm giving this episode an A. But. BUT! But. This is an A that comes with some major loving reservations, which I'm going to detail. The episode is a rather typical time travel episode, starting with Rose convincing the Doctor to travel back in time to the date and location of her father, Peter's (Shaun Dingwall), death, way back in November 1987. Rose was barely a year old at the time of her father's death, so clearly she has some unresolved emotional issues. In any case, Rose and The Doctor arrive at the scene of the fatal hit-and-run, and Rose impetuously decides to save Peter's life. This leads to the world being irrevocably changed, as a platoon of Langolier-like dragons with big ol' scythes and vagina-y mouths clean up the temporal anomaly that Rose made, which also swallows up The Doctor's TARDIS. Eventually, the last remaining humans hide up in a chapel, awaiting inevitable temporal annihilation, until Peter finally figures out what happened and nobly sacrifices himself to reset the universe. Now, there's a lot about the episode that I adored, but also a lot that I felt was just unbearably stupid. First and foremost is that it's a Rose episode. Rose, at this point, is just a bad character; somehow, through 7 episodes of characterization, the audience has no real sense of who Rose is. She's obsessed with The Doctor, and beyond that...nothing, really. The writing staff for Doctor Who has completely and utterly dropped the ball on making Rose even vaguely interesting or even a character in general; again, she exists as a person to be captured and doted over and that's it. She has no real motivations for anything she does, and beyond that she's just really sexist and irritating; when she's not dull as dishwater and completely undeveloped, she's just a goddamn moron, usually doing whatever idiot thing the episode demands occur so the plot happens. And in "Father's Day", this is exactly what happens, yet again. Rose, once again, nearly annihilates the Earth- in fact, dooms the Earth for complete annihilation -and it's really only via the genius of the important, superior men in her life that that doesn't happen. It's really kind of absurd how sexist and desperately uninteresting the Rose character is, especially when people in this thread love to complain about how DW gets, apparently, "super sexist" in the future, as if it's not now. Like...the only major female character on this show, the only one, is a character that literally only exists to be put in danger, or to be an idiot and cause the danger to happen. Beyond that, she's completely and utterly featureless except for her super tiresome and kind of revolting love affair with every single male human on the show. Rose is not a character, she's a plot device with tits, and it's all the worse that this episode revolves around her because the DW staff has poisoned her character so thoroughly in such a short amount of time that I don't want to see her on my screen. I have no emotional investment in Rose as a character because the writing staff has treated her so poorly, been so unwilling to dimensionalize her in any significant way. Obviously, this logic is circular- I don't want to see Rose dimensionalized, because she's a bad character, because she hasn't been dimensionalized -but this is the exact trap that writers fall into when creating bad characters and then continually mistreating them via narrative, and every Rose-centric episode has to by necessity overcome the personal bias I have against her. The placement of this episode within the season arc makes Rose's stupid decisions all the more idiotic, because she literally just came off an episode where she saw how The Doctor treated someone who manipulated the timeline to his own advantage. Having "Father's Day" occur after "The Long Game" makes everything Rose does through the episode even more ill-advised, because she's already aware of the negative effects but does them anyways. In addition, the setup to this episode is kind of atrocious. The Doctor and Rose get into conflict, immediately, about Rose saving Peter's life, of course, but unfortunately because of how hard the show pushes The Doctor/Rose unresolved sexual tension, it's hard to read the issues between Rose and The Doctor as anything but a lovers' spat, The Doctor being simply jealous over concerned about potential timestream effects(especially because of how he has treated every one of Rose's potential suitors). I mean, the scene itself is so charged that even Rose notices it, pointing out how The Doctor might simply be mad that she's, for once, focused on a man who isn't him. This entire forced romance angle between Rose and The Doctor is just terrible at this point, because firstly, it's a really poorly done will-they-won't-they, just badly written in general, and secondly and more importantly the romance angle has been pushed so hard it calls every decision the Doctor has made up to this point into question. Does he really care about helping others, or is this simply to get into the pants of a woman he's known for barely a week, if that? It just doesn't make sense and only serves to make we, the audience, mistrust The Doctor in general, not create any sort of narrative hook. Beyond that, the setup of this episode is just kind of abysmal in general; it takes far too long to get going and just starts and stops throughout. There's a lot of forced wandering and really unnecessary dilly-dallying before the episode finally has everyone barricaded in the chapel, an unnecessary twenty minutes. It's not even exposition or scene-setting, really; it's just sort of aimless nonsense characterized by The Doctor glaring at people, mostly Rose. Finally, though, having the Scythe Vaginadragons, as I will refer to them, as the major antagonists of this episode was a flat-out loving mistake. The Langoliers is one of my favorite Stephen King works, and this episode is for all intents and purposes a pure copy-paste job on that short story's plot, except in the case of The Langoliers, they were a loving terrifying antagonist. They weren't even really evil; The Langoliers simply consumed, they destroyed the past because that was their job. They were nameless, they were faceless. They accomplished their job and continued on, because that is what they did, that was what they always did. They were so terrifying because they were completely unrelatable, just this sort of alien force that symbolized the encroaching present on the just-viewed past. In contrast, the Scythe Vaginadragons are a bunch of stupid mooks who fly around sticking human-shaped phalluses in their incredibly Freudian mouths. As the major source of danger, of narrative stakes, they look and act so stupidly that they completely let the air out of the room once they arrive. Just a supremely idiotic looking enemy. Okay, why am I giving this episode an A, despite hating a lot of it? Because the second half of this episode is absolutely loving INCREDIBLE. Once the main cast gets forced into the chapel, the episode immediately takes a turn for the good. Isolated from the idiotic enemies, from the stupid setpieces and dumbass action sequences, the episode turns into an absolutely riveting character study, with all of the actors, even Billie Piper, turning in really good, emotional performances. There's just so many scenes within the chapel that are flat-out great: having Peter's entire arc of initially being discomforted by Rose, to his slow, gradual realization of who she is and more importantly what she has done for him is a flat-out brilliant character arc, helped in no small way by Shaun Dingwall's absolutely electric acting. Dingwall is really able to turn Peter in a relatable, sympathetic character; there's so many little moments with Peter and Rose that there's almost to many to count. The writing staff really mines the paternal issues that Rose has vis a vis Peter for all they're worth, with Peter and Rose spending so much time together within the chapel that the audience is eventually able to sympathize with and even defend her decision to save him. Peter is just a great character through and through. What I especially enjoyed is that the writing staff shied away from making Peter into a paragon of humanity; especially during the flashback sequences with kid Rose and Jackie, the way Jackie describes him as, essentially, the greatest human being alive, it would've been rather easy to make Rose's father into the man she always imagined him to be, to make their eventual parting at the end of the episode all the more bittersweet. Instead, Peter, is, well, he's kind of a complete fuckup. He's continually broke or near-broke, he sleeps around on Jackie all the time, and he's always involved in various cons and get-rich-quick schemes. It's that level of flawed humanity that makes his sacrifice to save his daughter at the end of the episode all the more impactful, because it comes as a result of going through an emotional journey, of having an arc. Plus, having Peter be an utter scoundrel puts a fine point on how humans remember their dead; by rejecting all of their bad qualities and overemphasizing their good ones, of essentially deifying them post-death. It's a dangerous, disingenuous road to go down, because what makes a human, what makes a life is their strengths and their flaws, and having Peter realize that he was meant to die all along because of the way Rose painted an idyllic picture of him as a father just made no logical sense to him in the present. Despite all of his flaws, and there were many, having Peter not buy into some self-aggrandizing delusion of himself in the future as the perfect father was a great moment for his character. When Peter, when he decided to finally sacrifice himself to beat hit by the car he was always meant to be hit by, said "I never read you those bedtime stories, I never took you on those picnics. I was never there for you," I almost choked up. This was the moment of emotional significance, the moment of emotional reality that I had been waiting for, it was loving incredible. It was a man who realized his own limitations, how he was not the hero everyone important in his life had remembered him as, in doing so became that person- if just for a moment. And it was loving incredible. This episode accomplished the impossible: It made me give a poo poo about Rose. And for that alone, it gets an A. Grade: A Random Thoughts:
NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Aug 10, 2014 |
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Aug 10, 2014 22:40
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Oh the Doctor Who hater loves the stripped down "bottle episode with loads of everyday character development" plot. Big surprise  Seriously though you're not wrong about seeing Rose as a plot device with tits and being annoyed as gently caress at how the show treats her will they/won't they with the Doctor and her presumed awesomeness as the audience surrogate. No spoilers or anything, just know that even among diehard fans you are very far from alone in that opinion, at least as far as this point in the run goes.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:46
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In the pre-run publicity RTD said something along the lines of "The Doctor has two hearts and both can be broken" and everyone groaned.
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Aug 10, 2014 22:56
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MrL_JaKiri posted:In the pre-run publicity RTD said something along the lines of "The Doctor has two hearts and both can be broken" and everyone groaned. Really? He said that? Ahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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Aug 10, 2014 22:59
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MrL_JaKiri posted:In the pre-run publicity RTD said something along the lines of "The Doctor has two hearts and both can be broken" and everyone groaned. Oh wow. That is bad.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:19
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I'd forgotten that this episode actually had some good stuff in it. All I remembered were the stupid dragon things.
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Aug 10, 2014 23:34
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Doctor Who "Father's Day" Series 1, Episode 8 Ahh, this is a frustrating one. You have the great acting (for Doctor Who) and effective character development (for Doctor Who), but the whole experience is soured due to the characters involved and its place in the series as a whole. "Father's Day" is similar to "Dalek" in that it would have been vastly improved if nu-Who had only lasted one season. We finally get an answer to why Rose was so fanatical about clinging to the Doctor all the time, beyond just wanting to bask in the warm glow of his smile; from the very start, she'd been angling to get to this exact point in time, to save the man she'd heard so much about and regain the time that the two of them could never share. The fact that she does it immediately after seeing Adam's goof-up and ensuing consequences paints her as either exceptionally determined or exceptionally stupid, and I'm leaning toward the latter. No longer satisfied with an ordinary, run-of-the-mill gently caress-up, Rose commits a nested gently caress-up in her attempt to save Peter, interfering with her own timeline in the process of her rescue attempt. The episode then answers the question as to why the Doctor can't just loop through one of his adventures over and over again until everything turns out dandy for everyone - interfering with one's own timeline creates a paradox with a number of nasty consequences, including but not limited to linear-time breakdown, localized time loops, and moderate-to-severe Langolierism. A side note: the Gargoylangoliers are the most blatantly stupid thing about this episode and a clear example of Doctor Who's schlocky sci-fi trappings loving with its occasional moments of genuine heart. It would have been better, for a storytelling angle, to have something like people simply dropping dead and blinking out of creation; Rose's actions have literally diseased the entire timeline, so it wouldn't particularly matter how everyone starts to cack it. But no, instead we get some of the clumsiest CGI creatures thus far munching on hapless passersby. Davies didn't write this episode, so I can't even lay the Langoloyles at his feet. It's just a symptom of Doctor Who going big, loud, and dumb whenever possible. Anyway, Rose. I said before that this episode would be better if nu-Who had terminated at series 1, and that's mainly because Rose's complex over her father is her sole character trait that doesn't somehow revolve around the Doctor. In the space of this episode, she finally gets her wish of saving her dad, only to see his pedestal crumble before her eyes and the rest of the world crumble with it, only for Peter to rebuild it again for a legitimately touching farewell. Occupation goes in for big-and-weepy drama, but my functioning emotional spectrum is limited mostly to flavors of contempt, so onscreen tears don't get to me; however, I can still appreciate the "careful what you wish for" narrative arc Rose and Pete's relationship follows, terminating with what Rose had first asked for - to stay at her father's side and ensure he didn't die alone. Peter's performance, as mentioned, is superb, and Rose doesn't do too badly either, even if her fish-mouth started to disturb me a bit towards the end. "Father's Day" ties off her personal arc, showing her the consequences of her recklessness on a personal scale and hopefully instructing her to be more responsible in the future. But we've still got so much more time to spend with her. I didn't realize until this rewatch how unbearably loving frustrating Rose is as a character, especially in light of future nu-Who companions. Nearly everything entertaining that occurs in Rose's episodes occur in spite of her, with a few notable exceptions. "Father's Day" is probably the biggest exception, and we've got more to come, but they'll be few and far between compared to her DeeDee-esque moments of accidental catastrophe. It's not just that her Cockney lilt grates me, or her teeth disturb me, or her incompetence frustrates me, or that her complete lack of agency bores me - it's that, at every turn, Davies will break his loving back to give this girl everything she wants and more, starting with her inexplicable romance with the Doctor and proceeding to dizzyingly retarded new depths from there. I'm ok with a character who wants to be girlfriends with the Doctor. I am not ok with a character who practically is girlfriends with the showrunner. Rose's creator-pet status has already been shown in painful detail, and now that her personal arc is patched up, her fairytale romance with the Doctor is all she has left. And we're going to be stuck with it for a lot more than just the five episodes remaining in this series. But, disregarding all that, this was a lovely episode, the bargain-bin CGI critters aside. I echo most of what Occ said regarding the plot and the performances, though the little moment with kid-Mickey didn't faze me much. The Doctor's chat with the newlywed couple in particular was wrenching, and put a crucial component of his character on display - he finds everything about the lives of others (Daleks excepted), no matter how picayune, to be precious and worth preserving, despite realizing at the same time that such things have to end. Rose puts the whole world at risk to prevent an ending; the Doctor steps up to the plate to help save a beginning, and not because he's still crushing on Rose. Pity that dynamic couldn't last.
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Aug 11, 2014 01:10
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Toxxupation posted:Does he really care about helping others, or is this simply to get into the pants of a woman he's known for barely a week, if that? It's interesting that you say this, because thinking about it for a moment this is just about the only convention of the show that doesn't get specifically pointed out right near the start, and it probably helps to understand: unless the end of one story explicitly leads directly into the next (like at the start of The End of the World, where she literally runs into the TARDIS and they're off on their very first trip), you should assume that there's been an indeterminate-but-not-too-long period of time between episodes, during which they went to a couple of places where nothing particularly notable happened and they just spent their time eating chips and sightseeing. So, for instance, between The Long Game and Father's Day, they might have been to the Middle Ages to meet Chaucer, then went on a safari in the prehistoric jungles of Deva Loka, and then insinuated their way onto a historians' trip to the Archive of the Orion Nebula Parliament; but they didn't run into any baddies, so the next time we see them is when Rose decides she wants to see her dad.
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Aug 11, 2014 01:41
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Does Toxxupation read your posts Oxx? Because there are some general spoilers in there that I happen to agree whole-heartedly with but wonder if he wants to stay in the dark on.
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Aug 11, 2014 01:51
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I also seem to vaguely recall that, especially in Series 1, every episode had to have a monster for some contractual or marketing reason. So Father's Day was originally written to not have any monsters, the threat being purely to do with causality and time paradoxes, but that was made impossible. That may just have been fandom rumor, though.
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Aug 11, 2014 01:55
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Don't know if that's true, but I do know the original design for the reapers was originally literal grim reapers esque hooded figures that would appear and swipe people out of existence with their scythes.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:04
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mind the walrus posted:Does Toxxupation read your posts Oxx? Because there are some general spoilers in there that I happen to agree whole-heartedly with but wonder if he wants to stay in the dark on. He knows that Rose's tenure lasts a bit and I've groused to him about the creator-pet thing before. It's generally safe to assume that spoilers in my writeups are ones that I've already revealed to him either out of veiled responses to his questions, or shits and giggles.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:07
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Oxxidation posted:He knows that Rose's tenure lasts a bit and I've groused to him about the creator-pet thing before. It's generally safe to assume that spoilers in my writeups are ones that I've already revealed to him either out of veiled responses to his questions, or shits and giggles. Coolio. Thanks. What's most amazing is--per everything with Doctor Who--Rose not only has fans but ardent die-hard fans. That's something I wonder if Toxx knows about-- that no matter how loving monstrously bad or stupid you find something in Doctor Who there is not only a corner of the fandom that likes it, but will passionately defend it as a high point of the series.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:10
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When you dig deep enough into Doctor Who fandom, you'll find that everything comes down to Looms.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:12
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MikeJF posted:Don't know if that's true, but I do know the original design for the reapers was originally literal grim reapers esque hooded figures that would appear and swipe people out of existence with their scythes. That's scarier, but I can understand changing it since that gets into religious territory that is weird for this show. Glad to finally see an A rating. This type of episode is why some of us are fans, when Doctor Who is at its lowest it can be drat low, but when it does things well it makes it all worthwhile.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:21
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Senor Tron posted:Glad to finally see an A rating. This type of episode is why some of us are fans, when Doctor Who is at its lowest it can be drat low, but when it does things well it makes it all worthwhile. I'm pretty sure it's graded on a curve.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:41
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mind the walrus posted:Coolio. Thanks. There's a reason I want to give you all noogies, you know that right
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Aug 11, 2014 02:50
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mind the walrus posted:Does Toxxupation read your posts Oxx? Because there are some general spoilers in there that I happen to agree whole-heartedly with but wonder if he wants to stay in the dark on. People actually read the reviews? I thought we were just loving with these two dweebs 
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Aug 11, 2014 02:50
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It's me, I'm reading them. I kinda relish seeing a fresh face and someone who's way more upbeat about the franchise than I am looking at these, given that I'm at the point these days of going "...why do I even watch this?" every other episode.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:54
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:It's me, I'm reading them. I kinda relish seeing a fresh face and someone who's way more upbeat about the franchise than I am looking at these, given that I'm at the point these days of going "...why do I even watch this?" every other episode. Most people are reading them, Irish Joe is just my hated nemesis. And everyone else's hated nemesis. He's a poop dude, is what I'm getting at here.
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Aug 11, 2014 02:56
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On the other hand, oxx, if everyone stopped reading them we could stop spending the time posting them I could go back to playin more AC IV. And you could go back to, I dunno, trying to convince me to watch doctor who wait gently caress
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Aug 11, 2014 02:58
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DoctorWhat posted:When you dig deep enough into Doctor Who fandom, you'll find that Fixed that for ya.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:02
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Hell yeah looms are stupid. My point is that every fandom argument can be reduced to "does this person like looms".
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Aug 11, 2014 03:03
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Oxxidation posted:Most people are reading them, Irish Joe is just my hated nemesis. And everyone else's hated nemesis. He's a poop dude, is what I'm getting at here. I will legit go to bat for Irish Joe, that's more than I can say about you, man.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:13
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Toxxupation posted:There's a reason I want to give you all noogies, you know that right Yeah, we like a stupid show about a magical space wizard who farts around historical events and badly made alien costumes, often both at the same time. Who wouldn't that piss off?
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Aug 11, 2014 03:18
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DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:I will legit go to bat for Irish Joe, that's more than I can say about you, man. Baseball is stupid.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:41
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Oxxidation posted:Baseball is stupid. Most things are stupid. And there are still fans of them.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:53
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DoctorWhat posted:When you dig deep enough into Doctor Who fandom, you'll find that everything comes down to Looms. http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Loom quote:Like many ideas and concepts introduced within non-television based media, this has not been referenced on-screen, and can be seen to contradict sources within the series itself.
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Aug 11, 2014 03:53
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Move along, nerds.
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Aug 11, 2014 04:26
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I have absolutely no recollection of this episode. How strange. I also could've sworn that the Dalek episode was the finale, so I have no idea how much we have to go, because I remember the gas mask thing and I'm pretty sure that was in Eccleston's run.Toxxupation posted:This episode retroactively makes Rose and Mickey's relationship REALLY creepy, though, unfortunately. It is still worrying me that Occupation/ANUS/Toxxiwhatsit (seriously, no one could've answered my page 1 question about his name at the time? If you're not a TV IV fanatic how the gently caress are you meant to know who is who around here especially with this thread title?) is willing to forgive so many negatives for the rare positives. Is this how a Doctor Who fan is made?
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Aug 11, 2014 05:03
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I imagine when you know you're stuck in something for the long run it doesn't behoove you to go all-in on the bile unless the episode truly leaves you no alternative. Plus for all its faults Series 1 did have some truly great highs, almost entirely in reference to Eccleston's performance.
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Aug 11, 2014 05:09
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VagueRant posted:What is this in reference to? A young Mickey is present during the events of this episode, and in his fear he looks to Rose as a mother-figure to protect him, and Rose even jokes that she fears she may have imprinted herself on his subconscious. It's played for laughs but it's still creepy considering he grows up to be her boyfriend.
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Aug 11, 2014 05:21
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DoctorWhat posted:Hell yeah looms are stupid. My point is that every fandom argument can be reduced to "does this person like looms". Most people in Doctor Who fandom haven't heard of looms. VagueRant posted:It is still worrying me that Occupation/ANUS/Toxxiwhatsit (seriously, no one could've answered my page 1 question about his name at the time? If you're not a TV IV fanatic how the gently caress are you meant to know who is who around here especially with this thread title?) Context?
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Aug 11, 2014 12:02
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At the end of this, I'm expecting one or both of you guys to end up being fans of the show. Gooble gobble gooble gobble one of us one of us!
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Aug 11, 2014 13:10
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terrordactle posted:At the end of this, I'm expecting one or both of you guys to end up being fans of the show. I liked the show from the start, as the OP states. As the OP also state, I hate everyone else who likes it, which puts me and Occupation in roughly the same position.
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Aug 11, 2014 13:14
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Oxxidation posted:I liked the show from the start, as the OP states. As the OP also state, I hate everyone else who likes it, which puts me and Occupation in roughly the same position. That's also pretty much how I feel about the show. I used to watch new episodes with friends while drinking, and their enthusiasm plus alcohol colored my perception of things. When I started watching episodes alone, while stone sober, I quickly realized there's absolutely nothing special about Doctor Who. It's yet another sci-fi series with a bombastic soundtrack, crappy CGI, and stakes that never matter. The only thing I still find amusing about the show is the death tolls that rack up before the Doctor gets around to saving the day. It seems like American genre shows only allow one or two victims before the protagonists put a stop to things, or at least cop out with there being a cure for the dozens of victims at stake.
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Aug 11, 2014 15:22
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