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Basically the way it's generally treated in the new series is that it's this: It's controlled by telepathic interface It's a sonic manipulator, which seems to basically grant it small-scale short-range telekinesis. It's got a general sensor array It's got an onboard computer It's got a space-radio and a remote link back to the TARDIS, with all that entails 2house2fly posted:"Screwdriver" has been an obvious simplification of the type of device it is for a long time. Although the torch lighting does conflict with what's been pretty consistently one of its limitations- it "doesn't do wood". Let's say that torch was an advanced cyber torch somehow. making it explode into flames might not really count as 'doing' wood.
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Feb 14, 2015 15:41
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I must be the only person in existence who HATED the scene with River and the Dalek. That's a Dalek. They are the most evil beings in the universe. They hate EVERYTHING that isn't a Dalek. They have no emotions. All they want to do is kill, kill, kill. Mercy is not in their data banks I like Alex Kingston, but I am annoyed by "know it all but won't tell you" characters. The trope rubs me the wrong way even when I love the actor/actress (see Elizabeth Mitchell's character in her first few episodes of Lost). For everything awesome River did, there was something else that Moffat did that made me say "yes, yes, River is the best, can we please move on?" Getting a drat Dalek to ask for mercy firmly shoved her, for me, into "Mary Sue" territory and for the rest of her run on the show, I cringed when she showed. I mean, even when Ace managed to hurt a Dalek with a baseball bat, it kept shooting at her, not pleading for her to stop.
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Feb 14, 2015 16:28
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Oh, they have emotions. Hate is an emotion - Daleks are all about their emotions. The River scene in this episode I really liked, which the review didn't mention, is the "are you married, River?" one at the end. Matt Smith's little "Bah" when she vortexes out was brilliant.
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Feb 14, 2015 16:37
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Daleks are comic relief characters, you aren't supposed to take them seriously ever.
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Feb 14, 2015 16:54
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CobiWann posted:I must be the only person in existence who HATED the scene with River and the Dalek. it's the last one in existence and incredibly weak, I can totally imagine it asking to be spared under those circumstances. Also it looking up River Song and being absolutely terrified by what it finds isn't necessarily meant to make you like her more.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:03
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Yeah I otherwise love this episode but that River scene was bad, because River is a bad character who is annoying.Pwnstar posted:Daleks are comic relief characters, you aren't supposed to take them seriously ever. This is not true.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:08
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I mean, Daleks don't JUST hate. They also FEAR, because fear and hate are inseperable.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:19
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2house2fly posted:"Screwdriver" has been an obvious simplification of the type of device it is for a long time. Although the torch lighting does conflict with what's been pretty consistently one of its limitations- it "doesn't do wood". Let's say that torch was an advanced cyber torch somehow. I think it's a mistake to assume the properties of the Sonic Screwdriver are static. It changes form and utility almost as often as the Doctor does. Plus, Eleven is a tinkerer. You just know he's adding subroutines and widgets constantly while offscreen. Hell, we already know, thanks to the Library two-parter, that a future version of it (that some version of the Doctor gave to River) had 'red settings' and 'dampers' that let it do things that Ten's sonic just couldn't do. In short, it's a show, the sonic can do whatever the scriptwriters want it to do. And as technology has progressed over the last few decades, they've come up lots of new clever things it can do.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:20
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The sonic screwdriver has been basically a magic wand for decades, long before the revival was even a twinkle in RTD's eye. I'm pretty puzzled by people saying it being used for anything and everything is a recent development. Though the silliest use of it is still using it to repair barbed wire in The Empty Child/Doctor Dances.
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Feb 14, 2015 17:28
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marktheando posted:Though the silliest use of it is still using it to repair barbed wire in The Empty Child/Doctor Dances. Yeah, he didn't even bring out the sonic lance/welding attachment! How's that supposed to work then, Moffat? 
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Feb 14, 2015 17:59
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CobiWann posted:I like Alex Kingston, but I am annoyed by "know it all but won't tell you" characters. The trope rubs me the wrong way even when I love the actor/actress (see Elizabeth Mitchell's character in her first few episodes of Lost). The thing to understand about River is, in another Moffat loop she only knows everything because the Doctor wrote a diary of everything they did together at some point, from his perspective. She is basically calling the Doctor from various time periods, hoping to ping him from whenever. She doesn't know what he was doing last or what he has done already when he answers the call, she once didn't even get the Doctor generation she expected. At first, all her confidence comes from having a magic book, and in Time Of Angels the script in the book wasn't followed correctly (the ship wasn't supposed to crash, the whole thing wasn't supposed to be filled with super angels that break the rules of angels) and when the book wasn't followed all that confidence disappeared into just blind faith that the Doctor has a solution. That's one of the reasons she's much better in this episode. She still doesn't know what's going to happen, because the Pandorica wasn't written in her book: it never happened after the universe is set back on it's axis, so the Doctor would not have written it down. If it was written down, she would have known it was a trap without going to Amy's house and trying to jumpstart a TARDIS. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 18:10
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CobiWann posted:I must be the only person in existence who HATED the scene with River and the Dalek. I agree entirely honestly. It just reeks of bad writing in an otherwise pretty drat good season for an otherwise good character who might be skirting on the edge of obnoxious.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:11
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Craptacular! posted:The thing to understand about River is, in another Moffat loop she only knows everything because the Doctor wrote a diary of everything they did together at some point, from his perspective. She is basically calling the Doctor from various time periods, hoping to ping him from whenever. She doesn't know what he was doing last or what he has done already when he answers the call, she once didn't even get the Doctor generation she expected.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:16
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That post was how I have interpreted events. Unless I seriously misheard, there is a line in Time Of Angels that the ship wasn't supposed to crash. What I have assumed for some time now is that the cracks have changed the events and course of history, and the diary is written as though they never happened. Because after Big Bang 2, the cracks honestly did not happen and nobody remembers them happening. I have been prone to crazy Who theories, though, so I'm not saying my word is law.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:21
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Craptacular! posted:That post was how I have interpreted events. You've entirely made this up in your mind. River's diary is simply a diary she writes by herself, to help her keep track of her and the Doctor's intersecting timelines. She's confident and smug because she's known the Doctor, at this point in her life, a lot longer than he's known her. And he's a babyface right now. And teasing the Doctor is fun.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:33
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Point made and conceded. I guess I misheard Time Of Angels. It's not the first time goons have kept track of things better than I have. Like I said, this is the point the show started breaking the Back To The Future rules so hard that I started struggling to keep up.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:40
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MikeJF posted:You've entirely made this up in your mind. Nope, he's right. River's non-linear interactions with the Doctor means that there are numerous moments where she's more or less assured of her own safety - if she's got events before her, and events behind her, then she knows that the timeline is more or less stable and she can smug it up with impunity. But since time can be rewritten, and she knows that, she tends to dial down the act whenever events start to diverge from how she's got them written down, because that means either the timeline will re-assert itself or poo poo will explode and end up with one or both of them dead.
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Feb 14, 2015 18:56
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She doesn't know whats going to happen to her, just whats going to happen to the Doctor because they always meet in reverse order. Unless she gets a hint from the Doctor or Amy, she doesn't know if she will survive any of their adventures. Also Time Can Be Rewritten is a kind of a big deal with this show.
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Feb 14, 2015 19:04
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Doctor Who "The Big Bang" Series 5, Episode 13 "The Big Bang" is the crowning achievement of what's commonly been called Moffat's "puzzle box" style. Now, you could say it's a bad thing for the man's crowning achievement to be so early in his tenure as Who's showrunner, but if you think about it, you'd...be basically correct, actually. I'm on record as being a fan of Moffat throughout his ups and downs, but "The Big Bang," to me, still hasn't been topped. After five separate series finales (counting The End of Time) that were little more than ageing jalopies held together with nostalgia, yelling, and glue, this one is an immaculate locomotive, thousands of interlocking parts giving us a smooth and luxurious ride through the countryside. For someone like me, who gets his jollies from well-constructed plot elements, "The Big Bang" is basically porn. Most notably, this is the first finale of the revival - maybe the first in series history, I dunno - that doesn't really have a villain. Our sole antagonistic force consists of a petrified Dalek that accomplishes nothing and then dies. The mysterious entity that jacked and blew up the TARDIS is noted as a point of interest by the Doctor, but accepted by all as a mystery to solve when the whole of reality isn't minutes away from ending. The plot can't concern itself with shouting and running away from a threat because the threat has already happened; it came, it exploded, it conquered, it went on its way. So the Doctor and his entourage is left instead with trying to clean up the mess before that mess consumes all of them, turning "The Big Bang" into one long timey-wimey puzzle, unraveling and re-tying all the broken or wronged fragments of remaining time which continue to exist in the severely lessened universe and hoping that a solution waits at the end of it all. The Doctor could never get too fast and loose with time travel because that has a nasty habit of ending the universe, but since the universe has already ended, he's really got nothing left to worry about - as such, he's able to pull out all the stops and create a half-dozen hugely indulgent time loops for everything from rescuing Amy to giving her younger self a drink that was previously snatched out of her own hand, and then finishes it all off by repairing his own timeline, which is unspooling into oblivion after the detonation of the Pandorica. Whereas the big climaxes of Davies' finales often had him yelling nonsense solutions in your face until we got to credits, Moffat follows a set of rules - albeit rules that are often perilously vague and subject to revision whenever he feels is convenient - and the way the Doctor's time-travelling and metaphysical memory games cleave to what we already know of both makes the whole episode hugely satisfying to watch. We've spent the whole series being smacked in the face with the themes of waiting, lost time, and the power of memory, and "The Big Bang" lets all that play to its inevitable conclusion. It's a climax not only of action, but of theme. It's also where I think the Eleventh Doctor truly and fully distinguishes himself from his revival predecessors. There really wasn't a whole lot of daylight between Nine and Ten, once you looked past their actors - both of them were hurt, brooding war veterans who tried to keep a big happy mask over their neuroses with mixed success, and often powered their way through problems with technological jiggery-pokery and the sheer force of their personalities. Ten's most unique qualities were his negative ones - his venality, his instability, his constant ego-tripping - and it wasn't until "The Waters of Mars" when Davies finally allowed those qualities to come to the forefront. Up until that point, you probably could have swapped out Nine for Ten in nearly every one of his scenes, with only minor differences in performance and catch phrases. In contrast, it'd be hard to place any Doctor instead of Eleven in this finale, because his solution to everything is such an Eleven way of doing things - he shrugs, he smiles, he withholds information, he sneaks around, and when he thinks it's going to be most impressive, he flips a single switch and sets everything on fire. When Rory, early in the episode, asks him if he has a plan, and Eleven replies with a casual, "Bit of a plan, yeah," he's probably got the outline for the whole of Big Bang 2 worked out and is just filling in the fine details on the way. When he realizes that the Pandorica's detonation didn't straight-up delete him from existence, but instead started unraveling his personal timeline through the cracks, he thinks for about thirty seconds and then plants the seeds for his own resurrection in Amy's head. He works through words and vague, metaphysical rules, not technobabble or switch-flipping - like River noted in the last episode, "I hate good wizards in fairy tales. They always turn out to be him." And to be sure, his final comeback is a wizardly one, turning that creaky old wedding phrase into a magic spell to bring him back to life. The hilarious scene of the Doctor popping out of the TARDIS in his ridiculous wedding regalia just makes a point of how completely in-control he was for almost the whole run of the episode; the only reason anyone in the audience might have thought otherwise was because he withholds information from us just like he does to everyone else. And Rory! Remember him? Rory, who died? He's not dead again, finally, and he can really rock a security-guard uniform. Occ gushed enough about Rory, so I'll try to keep this spare, but I want to point out the obvious - his little waiting game outside the Pandorica now makes Rory over twice as old as the Doctor himself, and he was still Rory at the end of it. Granted, this happened in a deleted timeline, so whatever mental trauma he might have endured during that time got tamped down a bit, but it would be hard to swallow the idea of any character but Rory staying sane over the course of that wait. Rory was set up as the paragon of stability and reliability, someone who'd remain Rory in any situation, and sure enough, he Rory'd his way through two entire millennia, politely telling all who approached the Pandorica to please refrain from tampering with it unless they'd like a sword through their face (and as a nurse, he was qualified to advise them that a sword through the face is terrible for the face's health). Moffat's really in love with the idea of characters forced to take "the slow path," waiting out the years while the ever-impatient Doctor jets around in his time machine, and by waiting outside the Pandorica, Rory not only redeemed himself for killing Amy (more of a subjective redemption, really, I don't blame him for it, plastic Centurionism is a terrible affliction), but brought himself into the same thematic fold as Amy herself. Amy was "The Girl Who Waited," and now Rory's done his own waiting. He went a little overboard, yeah, but now he can fully consider himself to be one of the Companions - he's met the same criteria. Amy's the innocent of this episode, with everyone fixated on keeping her alive just so they have a chance to undo their own mistakes - Rory for shooting her, and the Doctor for failing to repair the life that got eaten by the crack in her room. This makes her the most passive of the cast, less an actor and more someone who's acted upon, but I can deal with it given that the entire season has concerned itself with resolving Amy's psychological hangups. The scene where the Doctor carries little Amelia back to her room, in addition to being a fantastic piece of acting from Smith, is a beautifully tied knot for both their respective arcs - the Doctor redeems and saves himself in the same moment that he returns to the little girl he left behind, takes her out of the cold, and tucks her in. His first and biggest mistake was leaving her to wait, and it's when he comes back that he's allowed to return himself. As for Amy herself, with her life repaired, her parents back, and her husband not-plastic, she thanks the Doctor for all he's done - and then decides to go with him anyway. Amy's original stint as a Companion was borne out of her obsession and neurosis from waiting for the Doctor, and now that her problems are fixed, she's able to travel with him as a vastly more well-adjusted adult. And with Rory in tow! Oh, happy day. As for River, since she's a bit player as usual, there's not much to say besides how hi-lariously angry her little stand-off with the Dalek makes some people. A lot of Who fans really can't handle the idea of someone being on the Doctor's level in terms of threat, and that's exactly what the Dalek scene was about - the Dalek flipping through his memory banks and being greeted by the image of a dread apparition with floofy hair. The Daleks have always been scared shitless of the Doctor, even begged him for mercy in "Dalek," so to have one do the same for River puts her on the same level as him as far as the show is concerned. And some of you hate that, don't you. River's great and I think she's great and Occ thinks she's great, and we will thrust her greatness into your faces with our magnificent reviewers' hips. Thrust, thrust, thrust. But like River, who's able to smug it up thanks to her little diary, Moffat knocked it out of the park here partly because he'd been planning Series 5 for quite a long time. It's a thirteen-episode puzzle that at once homages and takes the piss from tons of Who elements before it, and creates an exciting new precedent of rules and guidelines for what comes after. But from this point on, he's forced to think and write on the same schedule as everyone else. How will he fare? The future is murky. But Occ is wearing t-shirts with a fez on one side and Alex Kingston's head on the other and a bunch of nerds are probably going to get mad for some reason, so I'll definitely have fun. The universe is reset, the cracks are closed, and there's some cosmic jackass out there that still wants silence to fall. See you for Christmas, and then in Series 6. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Feb 15, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 19:07
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Oxxidation posted:Nope, he's right. River's non-linear interactions with the Doctor means that there are numerous moments where she's more or less assured of her own safety - if she's got events before her, and events behind her, then she knows that the timeline is more or less stable and she can smug it up with impunity. But since time can be rewritten, and she knows that, she tends to dial down the act whenever events start to diverge from how she's got them written down, because that means either the timeline will re-assert itself or poo poo will explode and end up with one or both of them dead. Events can't diverge from what she's written down because she writes them down after they happen, from her perspective. Though I guess if the Doctor mentions something she doesn't know about while they're syncing up their diaries she could take that as a hint that she has some kind of future. I like River, but I'm pretty sure she's just mad and doesn't have any special foreknowledge of her own timeline.
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Feb 14, 2015 19:26
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I agree, River is great. I may have said that already, but it bears repeating. e: so is Rory, of course
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Feb 14, 2015 19:30
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I always took it as River knowing things would generally be okay because she meets The Doctor later in his own timeline, but River's own safety is not guaranteed because she knows traveling with The Doctor is always a diceroll. So she's smug because she knows he's going to be sad about a fez or fall in a vat of butterscotch or something Doctor Who-ish later - like picturing an audience naked to overcome stage fright, - but when things get dangerous there's always the lingering feeling that this is the one where you get electrocuted and trapped in a computer moon and he just goes skipping off like nothing happened.
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Feb 14, 2015 19:46
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Pwnstar posted:Also Time Can Be Rewritten is a kind of a big deal with this show. It is starting here, I think is the big thing to keep in mind. In the RTD era, the Doctor was generally trying to prevent time from being rewritten. His tasks include things like making sure Queen Victoria doesn't end up eaten by a werewolf, to making sure humanity doesn't trap itself in New Earth's freeway systems. RTD Who generally acknowledges that the course of history is the same as our Earth-Prime history, and the future is a vague but has general milestones like humanity going to space, cross breeding with aliens and eventually reaching Professor Yana's time before who knows what the gently caress. But RTD had that problem where he'd write stories involving the entire universe being moved or giant planetwide invasions or Earth taken over by a malevolent force. Stories where all of humanity, sometimes all of creation, looks to the Doctor to solve things. If that's all you know, Moff Who is like  with dependency paradoxes everywhere and frequent rewriting of events happening each time they're being replayed. It's a great story, but it's also kind of sad Moff had to do so much to reverse the very public "epic" events at the end of RTD's run.
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Feb 14, 2015 19:57
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Pwnstar posted:She doesn't know whats going to happen to her, just whats going to happen to the Doctor because they always meet in reverse order. Unless she gets a hint from the Doctor or Amy, she doesn't know if she will survive any of their adventures. Also Time Can Be Rewritten is a kind of a big deal with this show. It's a big theme of the Eleventh Doctor's run, to be specific. I think it relates to the Eleventh Doctor's personality, and his status as kind of a fairy tale figure, a magical space wizard. Ten was a manic, guilt-ridden survivor, and his fatalism stemmed from that. And then when he got cocky and decided he had the power after all, the universe smacked him down (because he was being an arrogant bastard). Eleven is still guilty, but he hides it a hell of a lot better (in general he hides a LOT of things), and he holds a lot more optimism than his previous incarnation. He's not THE LAST OF THE TIME LORDS, he's a Mad Man With a Box. And gently caress if he isn't going to at least try to make things better.
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Feb 14, 2015 20:18
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Do we have a ballpark on how long it'll be until the Christmas episode review/prediction game entires close? Was considering rewatching the entire season before making my predictions but if we're not taking breaks between seasons that'll probably not be feasible.
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Feb 14, 2015 21:13
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Blasmeister posted:Do we have a ballpark on how long it'll be until the Christmas episode review/prediction game entires close? Was considering rewatching the entire season before making my predictions but if we're not taking breaks between seasons that'll probably not be feasible. Occ's planning to take a break for a week or two after the Christmas episode. Exact dates are up to him.
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Feb 14, 2015 21:55
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I don't car for River after the Angels episode. There's just too much telling us that she's awesome (for some reason, Daleks are afraid of her, she can get out of a high security prison whenever she wants magically, yadda yadda). I liked her better when she was a kickass archaeologist and not just 'the most awesome person ever." I don't hate her and Alex Kingston is great, but she's just over-written. I definitely agree that season 5 is the strongest so far, though. Every character gets their thing to do after the big cliffhanger, all the stuff from the first episode comes back, the Doctor (and therefore Matt Smith) gets an opportunity to stop the act he puts on for people and just be old, and tired, and sad but happy with all that he's gotten to do and of course, of course he shows up to the wedding despite being erased from existence, but of course, of course, he's late. And yeah, that exchange between the Doctor and Rory about how they're "the Ponds" is brilliant.
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Feb 14, 2015 22:04
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Oxxidation posted:Occ's planning to take a break for a week or two after the Christmas episode. Exact dates are up to him. Isn't the Christmas episode a part of the next season, votes-wise, though? So we'd have to have the votes in before the Christmas episode review, not after.
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Feb 14, 2015 22:16
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Toxx, i think so far it's heavy bowgun, lance/gunlance, or long sword
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Feb 14, 2015 22:17
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Mo0 posted:Toxx, i think so far it's heavy bowgun, lance/gunlance, or long sword all decent choices there's only one weapon i hate so but yeah switch over to GS or charge blade, esp the latter, charge blade is where the cool people are at also make sure to download the item pack so you can make your pelico into luigi
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Feb 14, 2015 22:20
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The Christmas episode feels thematically like it belongs in the next season to me.
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Feb 14, 2015 22:21
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Toxxupation posted:all decent choices Yeah all the people I'm hunting with are fighting over the "privilege" of being The Charge Blade User so I'm avoiding that clusterfuck And greatsword was singlehandedly responsible for me hating the Wii U demo so I'm skipping that Also I need to find the download button for the costumes
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Feb 14, 2015 22:25
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Mo0 posted:Yeah all the people I'm hunting with are fighting over the "privilege" of being The Charge Blade User so I'm avoiding that clusterfuck download 1.1 from the store, then go into your house, talk to the housekeeper, go to DLC, go to gifts
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Feb 14, 2015 22:26
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Bicyclops posted:I don't car for River after the Angels episode. There's just too much telling us that she's awesome (for some reason, Daleks are afraid of her, she can get out of a high security prison whenever she wants magically, yadda yadda). I liked her better when she was a kickass archaeologist and not just 'the most awesome person ever." I don't hate her and Alex Kingston is great, but she's just over-written. Really, do we even see River do any archaeology after her first appearance? I'd love it if we saw her geeking out over uncovering some ancient artifact. I haven't seen season 5 in a while- were there any scenes where she actually does academic stuff, or is it all just superhero antics?
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Feb 14, 2015 22:44
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Bicyclops posted:The Christmas episode feels thematically like it belongs in the next season to me. I disagree, it very much feels like part of Season 5 to me. An added bonus rather than an extension, but it still feels like it fits in more with 5 than 6.
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Feb 14, 2015 22:51
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Jurgan posted:Really, do we even see River do any archaeology after her first appearance? I'd love it if we saw her geeking out over uncovering some ancient artifact. I haven't seen season 5 in a while- were there any scenes where she actually does academic stuff, or is it all just superhero antics? You call this "archaeology"?
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Feb 14, 2015 23:01
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Bicyclops posted:I don't car for River after the Angels episode. There's just too much telling us that she's awesome (for some reason, Daleks are afraid of her, she can get out of a high security prison whenever she wants magically, yadda yadda). I liked her better when she was a kickass archaeologist and not just 'the most awesome person ever." I don't hate her and Alex Kingston is great, but she's just over-written. The Dalek learns that River is a killer and asks for mercy, and her response is to make it beg and then kill it anyway. That's not the sort of thing you have a character do to show how cool they are.
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Feb 14, 2015 23:07
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It's a Dalek, they're immune to human rights. And the Doctor is much the same - back in Eccleston's run, he actively delights in torturing a Dalek just to cause it pain. I even just watched the scene in question (gosh, season 1 is so goofy) and the exchange goes like: "Ahhh! Have pityyyyyy!" in that goofy Dalek voice and the Doctor, all smiles, is like "Why should I?! You never did!". Holding River to a double standard, man. That's not cool. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Feb 14, 2015 |
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Feb 14, 2015 23:16
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Android Blues posted:It's a Dalek, they're immune to human rights. And the Doctor is much the same - back in Eccleston's run, he actively delights in torturing a Dalek just to cause it pain. See, the problem with this? That wasn't a *GOOD THING* the Doctor did. It was presented as pretty loving lovely all things considered. Nine had to grow out of that back to what the Doctor is at his heart- a coward. With River it's just an echo without the meaning. "She's so badass she can make a Dalek beg for mercy!" It's not a flaw, it's a feature. Not much of an issue though considering how well the rest holds and how small it was.
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Feb 14, 2015 23:22
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Pwnstar posted:She doesn't know whats going to happen to her, just whats going to happen to the Doctor because they always meet in reverse order. this is both not true and has never been true and I really wish people would stop saying it, they meet out of order, but not reverse
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Feb 15, 2015 00:00
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