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WGN? The baseball network? Yeah.  Manhattan is a period piece costume drama set in Los Alamos covering the development of the atomic bomb. The focus is between two competing research groups, the clear favorites developing the "Thin Man" and another team sort of disregarded and not taken seriously that is trying to prove it has a much better bomb they can build in a shorter time. A huge focus of the show seems to be the conflict between freedom and secrecy. In the first episode, some minor files have gone missing and it becomes a huge issue that drives the core of the plot. We also get some friction between the families of the scientists who live in a bubble and who's husband cannot tell them anything at all. It looks like a pretty miserable situation for anyone not directly involved in research, and since the local MPs are all young military men the wives are clearly interested in them. There's not much especially notable about the show's cast to really mention so far. The only famous faces I've seen are Mark Moses (Duck from Mad Men) as the Army officer in charge of the base, and Richard Schiff (Toby from West Wing) as the shady Intelligence operative on site to interrogate suspected spies. The reviews are...interesting. Half of them are along the lines of "Eh, it's not half bad." while others are "This is the best thing all summer by far but being on WGN no one will see it." Here's the most positive review I can find. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/wgn-s-manhattan-is-summer-s-best-new-show-but-will-anyone-watch.html quote:As the arms race escalates and the secrets and lies unfold, the result is a series that’s both tense and sleepy in its pace. Throw in the period setting and “like Mad Men during WWII” shorthand becomes inevitable. In a summer that’s offered new programs that pretty much all sit on the spectrum from “silly, but still curious” (Extant, The Strain) on one end to “just plain silly” (Dating Naked) on the other, Manhattan is the most grown up, worth-watching new series we have. edit: SECOND SEASON CONFIRMED! http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/10/14/wgn-america-renews-manhattan-for-season-2/ pentyne fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 06:48
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E PLURIBUS ANUS posted:This show is absolutely loving incredible I'm pretty eager to see how this show does. I imagine the network will put up with some pretty low ratings if the critical acclaim continues. 2 episodes in and they definitely have a long-shot chance for an Emmy based on the quality of what the cast has shown so far. Also, I absolutely love the cinematography, set design, costumes, etc. It's really better then any new series I've seen in years.
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Aug 8, 2014 03:19
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God drat I never expected a show to have a scene where a guy walks from chalkboard to chalkboard effortlessly fixing physics equations to be completely badass. Plus, the entire episode dealt heavily with the soldier who shot Sid feeling an intense amount of guilt and is trying to deal with it while all the other MP's are cheering him and slapping him on the back while the Colonel tells him to stick to a certain set of "facts". I also really enjoyed how Sid was constantly brought up as a "Jap spy" by housewives or random soldiers and others would get upset and say "Hey! He was Chinese" because Sid was more then some racist caricature, he was a human being. And holy poo poo, the end of the episode was brilliant. The VO narration for the letter to Sid's wife and the shot of where it ends up, followed by Winters succeeding with implosion. Whoever they hired for this show, they are at the top of their game. Every episode reminds me of a good Mad Men or Breaking Bad episode for how well they handle things. pentyne fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Aug 11, 2014 |
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Aug 11, 2014 06:08
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Fooz posted:Yay a thread. No need to spoiler history. Whatever the Nazis were actually getting up to with their bomb project the US was terrified that with the caliber of scientists in Germany at the time they must've been really close to the bomb. Of course by 1943 Germany was so strapped for cash merely keeping the army functioning and desperately trying to rush tanks off the production lines was all they could do.
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Aug 12, 2014 03:36
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drat, the scene where Frank hallucinates the mustard gas rolling in was another fantastic moment. The music especially just completely nailed what it probably feels like to hallucinate like that. This show really makes me wonder about Oppenheimer. He comes off as a humorless rear end in a top hat. Conversely, Niels Bohr comes off as a cool dude. Bohr is just eager to see the site and chat with his old friend Frank Winter. He gets a fantastic line where when walking into the offices of the Eckley group and all the scientists are standing and cheering he says “I’m leaving. After my experience with the Nazis I don’t relish the exuberance of crowds.” I have no idea who the actor playing Bohr is, but he does an absolutely amazing job. Everything about his brief character arc is phenomenal, especially the speech he gives at the end to Charlie about “How big is it” referring to more than just the technical specs of the bomb, which I won't spoil but is told with some amazing imagery. Winters’ slowly approaching insanity, stemming from his time in the trenches, is starting to manifest is increasingly erratic behavior. Failing a detonation then immediately running to it, taking an MP’s gun and making him follow them as they carry the bomb to a new site, walking on a savaged foot, pointing a gun at his research assistant and telling him even scientists are soldiers in this war. Eckely is just some stuffed shirt who enjoys his fancy dinners and high status while Frank is practically killing himself to try and build the only workable version of the bomb while not being taken seriously and only getting a fraction of the resources.
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Aug 18, 2014 07:09
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Toxxupation posted:That final scene of the episode with the nurse joyously declaring on armistice day that all wars were over nearly made me break down and sob, that was emotionally incredible That contrasted to the eagerness of the Eckley group, Bohr's final speech to Charlie about what "How big" meant, and Winter's almost insane determination to prove he can make a better bomb more quickly was absolutely incredible. Even for a summer show the writing, acting, sound design, pacing etc. is top tier for a major network. I can't begin to imagine what the ethical dilemmas were for the people working on the project, but with Winter we get a man who has seen such horrific sites in war he is killing himself to save a few thousand more lives then the Eckley project would. They're really upselling the Eckley as the golden boy groomed in Ivory towers while Winters is the more smarter, more competent, and way more determined to succeed. I'm hoping the group vs group conflict finishes up in the season so they can focus more on the implosion bomb, the researchers concerns of what it does, and finally the reality of what the A-bomb will do to a massive population. One of the selling points for this show is how great they are addressing the personal ethics and fears of the cast. The MP who killed Liao is one of the best side cast members by far. The MPs seem to all be a bunch of eager GI Joe wannabes who can't wait to shoot at someone, and the only one who has is now in a far different place and despises the pats on the shoulder everyone wants to give him. Fenris13 posted:That would be Christian Clemenson, who is often cast as a socially awkward but extremely competent character, much like his role as Bohr. most of his work is phenomenal, and I was sad that it looks like this will be his one and only episode. 2006 Emmy Award Winner for Best Guest Actor in a Drama Series. This is pretty crazy. WGN is not holding back the purse strings for this show. pentyne fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Aug 19, 2014 |
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Aug 19, 2014 16:43
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Toxxupation posted:I've really never seen a show that can sandbag you with these massive emotional pieces out of nowhere with almost zero setup; most emotional shows have the emotionality be a slow build as they set the stage, as it were; manhattan instead just out of fuckin nowhere makes you wanna break down and cry, or creates a tone with little or no comment The PFC seems to be more important as someone on base who personally understands the cost of taking a human life during war while everyone else is more or less getting a free pass from the front lines and eager to kill a Jap/Nazi without any awareness of what war is. He's being set-up as the MP counterpart to Winter, Winter being the only scientist we've shown has a deeply personal stake in the cost of war. I'll say it again, this show is holding nothing back. I don't know where the got the writers or who is overseeing them but the directive from WGN must have been "Make it perfect, we don't care how long/expensive it takes, hire any actor you need, talent/quality takes precedence" Btw, this forum still has a mod, right? I'd really like this show to get a sticky on Sunday nights to draw more attention to the show. Of all the other Sunday night shows, True Blood, Masters of Sex, Ray Donavon, Last Ship, this is the only one I would try to encourage people to watch.
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Aug 19, 2014 17:11
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Well, this episode was a bit of a letdown. It focused quite heavily on the project secrecy and previous contacts the scientists may or may not have had, and was pretty good in general but dragged a bit with the personal conflicts, especially between Winter's wife and the rear end in a top hat Captain who killed her bees.
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Aug 25, 2014 04:36
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Wow, I was worried that goon scientist's b-plot was going to be about him being in love with the base prostitute but the whole him swallowing the plutonium was way more interesting the I expected. Also what did Winters mean by "Potempkin clinic?" Oh, and the little scene of the Army guy giving Winters' wife the box of DDT and it had the kids being sprayed with it to kill lice was hilarious. I'm glad the whole "Winters infidelity" angle was completely absent this episode. His wife is such a good character on her own that we don't need some bs relationship drama to take up her time.
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Sep 1, 2014 05:56
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Fooz posted:Wikipedia says ~0.35 Which for WGN is probably stellar.
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Sep 2, 2014 03:07
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VDay posted:That it's related to the fact that everyone that works/lives at the camp is being exposed to a bunch of really dangerous chemicals without their knowledge. It sets Frank's wife up to be the one who discovers/reports the dangerous toxic chemicals that the entire camp is apparently exposed to, and fits in with the health theme of the episode. I'm not super knowledgeable about the specifics of the Manhattan project, but the concept of safety/morals vs progress is pretty common in the history of discovery/technology. The show dealt with it directly in the scene between Frank and the general, but the entire episode was basically about the blissful ignorance that a lot of people had at the time of the dangers of the chemicals that they were dealing with. The whole thing with Frank being shown the Nazi equations almost seemed like something fabricated by the higher ups (Oppenheimer maybe) to terrify him into looking the other way about the absence of any serious health directives regarding radiation. His response is to take full possession of the plutonium and not let anyone else work with it, so he'll be the only one exposed. While noble, still does nothing to address the complete sideshow that is the radiological safety measures. Regarding the DDT, it wasn't even seriously investigated as a problem until the 60s, so at best Liza Winters will find that its doing damage, but the Army will still saturate the children and the troops with it.
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Sep 2, 2014 20:13
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Factor Mystic posted:The DDT stuff is irritatingly anachronistic. Plus, if all you care about is human safety, spraying DDT is everywhere a itself miracle of science. I looked it up after the episode, it was more or less a miracle cure for the army to keep soldiers from getting sick in tropical environments like the Pacific islands. It seems like a one off though, as it hasn't been mentioned again. Paradoxish posted:I hate to say it, but I think I may be too much of a sperg to enjoy this show. The writers are taking an insane number of liberties with history to create drama centered on the project itself, and it's just starting to feel really lazy. Basically everything around the X-10 reactor is made up, for example, since, as far as I know, that thing came online ahead of schedule without a hitch. I really wish the show would just stick with character drama and leave stuff relating to the project in the background and basically historical. This is the one thing bothering me the most about the most recent episodes. Obviously they need to flesh out the main cast, and young genius plagiarist hasn't really gotten much time to develop as compared to Winters and Liza or even the PFC who shot Lee, but creating contrived situations doesn't help. I mean, racism in the 40s was pretty bad, but if they got a world famous black nuclear physicist I really doubt the on site manager would be allowed to treat him like a servant; in fact the only reason the black physicist would be there is people at the top wanted him, and all he'd have to do is send them a memo or letter saying "Hey, the on-site rednecks treat me like garbage, this facility will probably explode, I'm heading to Alaska, good luck with the war" and a torrent of fury would rain down from Oppenheimer. It's really disappointing to see the direction the show has taken. The first 4 episodes were mind-numbingly good, like something I'd expect from a top tier AMC or HBO show, but it stumbled and doesn't seem to be getting back to what made it great. WGN has backed this hard and it's almost certain to get a second season, but if it doesn't get passed the weird attempts to be Mad Men (Winter's infidelity) its going to be stuck at being merely 'good' rather then great. The episode Last Reasoning of Kings is probably one of my top 15 episodes of TV ever, mostly in part to the phenomenal acting and speeches by the Niels Bohr actor, but since that high point, its slowly slide downhill. pentyne fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Sep 14, 2014 |
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Sep 14, 2014 21:36
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Holy gently caress the disinterest when Abigail heard from her parents about the ghettos and “liquidation” was a huge punch in the stomach. I really could picture how contemporary people might hear rumors about what happened to Jews in Europe under the Nazis and dismissing it as "gloomy rumors" rather then reality. It's one of those things you need to have shoved in your face to actually believe other human beings could literally have done. It paid off in spades with the scene of her with the file trying to keep it together while she explains to Charlie who says "Don't let it upset you, you can't change it". Charlie has finally gotten his episode, where he goes from “background annoyance” to “genuine protagonist” The actor did an incredible job of conveying serious internal panic over what he knew versus how it would affect him. And of all the side characters to get serious development, the Brit in Winter’s group, Crosley suddenly becomes a seriously interesting person. A displaced Lord working on the US project is way more intriguing then the random Brit. The whole thing leading up to Winter and Crosley hooking up the visitor with a prostitute was hilarious, even with the undertones of the visiting Brit being a dick to Crosley. Though, it seems like the entire plot was just to make Winter desperate about implosion and set up the amazing finale. The episode continues its A-game as Babbit confronts the polygraph examiner about Abagail, and casually mentions that they have a male “acquaintance” in common. I fully expect that plot point to be ignored after the initial reveal but I'm glad it was brought back in a somewhat subtle way. Also, I’m glad PFC Cole is getting more screen time. He did such a great job in the after episode of Liao’s shooting, and his comment of Sodom and Gomorrah was brilliant. It gave a great scene with Abigail so shocked by what the Army files told her trying to talk to Charlie while keeping it together and suddenly realizing what being Jewish means during WW2. Charlie being shown pictures of the Holocaust mere weeks/months after its happened to push him to do better. Then, the montage of Ackely and Winter both drinking, while Ackely is casually writing in his office, happily staring an advent calendar, and Winter is furiously scrawling equations and getting angrier and angrier. And god drat what an ending. Just the brief exchange between Winter and Charlie gave me chills. This show is back to where it belongs, and every minute of it was spellbinding. It’s one of the first shows I’ve seen that managed to make every single subplot in the show feel like the main plot. There were 4+ stories going on in this show, and they all seemed like the most important thing going on at the time.
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Sep 15, 2014 06:30
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A little too much forced drama this episode with the subterfuge with Charlie using Eckley's teams to do the implosion math and Winter having to deal with the cousin of the maid subtlety threatening him repeatedly. The payoff was odd, given that the intelligence services who up to this point have treated suspects as enemies of the state would create some convoluted scheme to see if Frank discloses any secret information. That one rear end in a top hat scientist who kept mocking Charlie got weirdly sexually violent with Charlie's wife, which seemed pretty unnecessary for him assault her and threaten Charlie in the same action. I know this show is going for "drama" but the thin man project has clearly been destined to fail since midway through this season, so all this cloak and dagger stuff just comes off as out of place. Same with the bit at the end with Liza taking radiation readings of the baby. That plot development was already addressed a while ago, so unless they're going to now have Liza raising hell over all the stray radiation I don't see the point.
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Sep 22, 2014 23:06
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"Say what you will about the Third Reich, they know how to respect hierarchy"  I'm not really enjoying the lesbian b-plot. I thought it was over then it's suddenly back. This episode seemed a little more scattered in plot then the previous ones, it seemed like they were trying too many things at once. I also dislike the continued forcing for family drama. We know from the show that the Army's radiological treatment program is smoke and mirrors, so Liza finding all the radioactivity makes sense, but now it was just her hallucinating? There was really no need to bring her mental illness into the show as a source of drama when there were much better things going on. There's only 3 more episodes, and given the tone and pace of the series I expect them to be mind-blowing, but this episode seems rushed like they tried to pack in all the things they hadn't got around to yet, Sid's wife, the Army guy dating Frank's daughter, more lesbian romance drama, Liza's possible insanity, etc. so that they could focus entirely on the implosion/Thin Man conflict for the last few and hopefully resolve the "which bomb will work" story. pentyne fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 05:15
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ShakeZula posted:The Abby plotline is definitely my least favorite part of the show. Beyond the fact that it's boring, Abby has just been so bizarrely low-key through the whole thing. This is an adulterous lesbian relationship that has progressed very quickly from flirtatious glances to straight up sex picnics, and sheltered housewife Abby has never shown more than slight consternation at any stage. Maybe it's just Rachel Brosnahan's performance, but I've never gotten any hint of real chemistry between Abby and Elodie, which makes the whole thing just seem like an odd waste of time. It's a shame, because I think there are very interesting stories to be told about the wives and families outside the labs, but the show doesn't seem keen on telling them. Unfortunately, the show has completely moved past the plagiarism subplot once Charlie joined the 'good guys' and only made it the focus of a single episode as a reason to reign in Charlie by Winters in order to protect Babbit and keep his love connection to a major spy secret. I feel like the family drama aspects where introduced into the show to make it more compelling then just "scientists battle over competing ideas" and as a whole come off as less developed and more forced. Liza's mental illness suddenly returning (or has it?) was really out of place in the tone of the show. There are 2 possibilities, a) she is starting to crack despite all the evidence shown onscreen that radiation is a serious problem the Army is ignoring or b)She's not cracking, and the rear end in a top hat Army guy who killed her bees is spying on her and making sure to discredit her attempts to out the problem.
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Oct 5, 2014 10:58
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spankmeister posted:The idea wasn't that they broke in and secretly decontaminated everything (which would be practically impossible), or that the isotope was so short lived that it had decayed significantly in that time span. (Any isotope with such a short half life would also be VERY dangerously radioactive.) Given the effort being made by the main security agent to try and catch Winter in a leak it's not out of the realm that someone is constantly watching his house and wife, but its not handled especially well, given that Winter knows the radiation treatment program is complete bullshit, and his wife suddenly coming to him and telling him there's contamination everywhere and his first response is "take your pills you're crazy". Every single one of the problems between them can be resolved instantly with either him disclosing to her that the army doesn't care about the radiation problem, taking the suspect Geiger counter and running it over some plutonium to make sure it works, or just telling her the whole thing is a state secret, and that she's right but he can't talk about it. At best, he's worried she's relapsing (an unnecessary conflict for the show) and at worst he's drugging his wife to shut her up so he can finish his bomb. pentyne fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Oct 5, 2014 |
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Oct 5, 2014 13:34
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This episode seemed a bit muddled by dragging everyone into some conspiracy of some sort and mostly focusing on the current interpersonal dramas. The loss of Magpie seemed like it would have more of an effect throughout the show, but head security is convinced its Winter and will likely try to pin it on him unless someone else is caught.
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Oct 6, 2014 08:25
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Fooz posted:Fun episode, not crazy about the ending. Hopefully the finale is good. Any word on how WGN is feeling about the ratings? Ratings are pretty low, but WGN has put a lot of eggs into this basket so it's almost certain to get a second season.
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Oct 13, 2014 08:38
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the new jazz posted:In the real timeline, there's about a year between the first plutonium arriving at Los Alamos and Thin Man being abandoned, and about another year between Thin Man being abandoned and the Trinity Test. So if they kept roughly the same pace against the real timeline (though there's no reason to expect that they should) a second season could end with Trinity (which would be a good season finale which could double, if need be, for a series finale). They wouldn't have to do any jumps forward to get there, at least. I expect the season finale to be mostly Frank in a shitload of trouble because the Intelligence head thinks he killed Eckley and it'll take Charlie confronting the head general with the reality of the impossibility of Thin Man and Winter getting cleared when Oppenheimer confirms the data. Or something similarly super dramatic. The whole point behind implosion is that the English studied it for years and couldn't crack it but with Charle, Winter, and the entire science-power of Los Alamos grinding away its a real possibility. To be honest, I'm looking forward to the finale/episode with the Trinity test. I would love to see the reactions between the people working on the bomb knowing on a intellectual level what it will do when faced with the reality of the most overwhelmingly destructive force ever created by human hands.
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Oct 14, 2014 10:51
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Factor Mystic posted:Unlikely, since Frank is currently not covered in blood and the gun is in a closed car with Akley. It'd be quite the impossible rube goldberg contraption that'd make this anything but a suicide. They've established that Frank was in the General's office that day claiming Thin Man would fail and he's got proof, which the general didn't believe, plus head Intelligence guy has it out for Frank and will certainty take the investigation into the realm of "You tried to sabotage his project, and when that didn't work you figured you'd cut off the head". His only hope is Charlie can sway the people in charge that Frank has been right all along, Eckley's been hiding the Thin Man failures, and now that he'd be exposed Eckley couldn't take it. Josh Lyman posted:I watched the pilot but couldn't really get into it. Now that the first season is almost over, should I give it another go? The pilot was good, but then the show because really, really great. There's maybe 2-3 weak episodes in the series so far, given that its a first season and even the weak episodes are still good on their own but absolutely dwarfed by the brilliance that occurs during this show. Episodes 2 and 3 started the rapid upward climb and then episode 4 blew the doors off, like it was one of the best hours of television all season. pentyne fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Oct 14, 2014 |
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Oct 14, 2014 16:48
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Factor Mystic posted:I liked Akley. One aspect I enjoy about this show's drama is that between Reed Akley and Frank Winter, neither is "the bad guy" in their battle with each other. It really came across that Akley was fighting a war from Command HQ while Frank Winter was fighting a daily battle from the trenches. The only "bad guy" is Tobias the head intel guy, but its his job to see spies around every corner and question the slightest irregularity. His treatment of Liao and then much later Liao's wife was brutally cold but completely within the bounds of reason for a guy who's job it is keep America safe.
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Oct 16, 2014 07:04
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Rarrgh posted:Brilliant season of television. They must have known they'd get a second season, because that finale was amazing but it was mostly a set-up for what comes next.
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Oct 20, 2014 13:14
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Hollismason posted:Yeah, I did not see that coming at all, it really was a pretty much perfect season. The AV Club gave the final episode a B+ in a full review and the season an overall A-. Time Magazine posted an article about how great the show was as well. I'm hoping the hype builds up over the next year as people give the show a chance on Netflix/Hulu/Amazon Prime or buy the DVDs. I seriously doubt that the Emmys will nominate any part of the show for an award despite that fact that Manhattan clearly deserves a nod in the set design category at least.
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Oct 21, 2014 13:16
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GimpChimp posted:Well, it wasn't so long ago that AMC or FX putting out premium original drama was a strange and unlikely idea, and their opening offerings were basically the strongest they've put out too, so let's be glad WGN is getting in the game and hope there's more to come. He's a Soviet spy. The Nazi atomic program was never a reality and fizzled out really quickly. I think there's a story about how Moe Berg while working as a spy was sent with a small pistol hidden on him to listen to a conference by Heisenberg with the explicit order to kill Heisenberg if it seemed like the Nazi's were capable of building an atom bomb and Berg realized the Nazis had no idea how to build a bomb much less the resources to do so. quote:From May to mid-December 1944, Berg hopped around Europe interviewing physicists and trying to convince several to leave Europe and work in America. At the beginning of December, news about Heisenberg giving a lecture in Zurich reached the OSS. Berg was assigned to attend the lecture and determine "if anything Heisenberg said convinced him the Germans were close to a bomb." If Berg came to the conclusion that the Germans were close, he had orders to shoot Heisenberg; Berg determined that the Germans were not close.
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Oct 22, 2014 00:08
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Factor Mystic posted:I really enjoyed the finale, because I liked the conclusion to Frank's character arc. He was always using the number of daily dead soldiers to propel him forward in his cause, because each man matters. But when it really comes down to each man, Frank was willing to throw them under the bus. I guess they hit us over the head with that, with the Ghost Liao scene but the actors had the distant stares to pull it off so I didn't mind. The set up of G-2 adding the mic's to everyone's houses comes back, and gives Frank a way to save the program and save one man. Cool. G-2 as the bad guy wasn't an issue until he started doing his spiel against Charlie that consisted of "Well, if you weren't a spy then obviously you'd do everything in your power to help America, but since you haven't then the null hypothesis states you're a spy." It seemed more like G-2 and the intelligence services just assumed the slightest bit of impropriety means someone was committing treason and treated them like animals, while the actual spies continued to operate freely because they kept their daily routine above board. It's the classic story of intelligence services going off on the wrong people at the slightest hint of trouble and actual spiess operating for years.
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Oct 23, 2014 16:08
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ShakeZula posted:^^^ Care to summarize it in spoilers? None of the finale reviews I've read mentioned either character at all. Okay, if you're not going to watch it, I'll summarize because it actually becomes essential to the main plot. Charlie's wife, Abby, stars an affair with the wife of one of Charlie's coworkers, a complete rear end in a top hat. For the whole affair, it seems more like Abby is just lashing out at being sheltered and controlled, given nothing to do, and once that other woman shows an interest in her it invigorates her. For 2 episodes it seems a bit weird and out of place, but eventually rear end in a top hat co-worker causes problems because he finds out Charlie and Frank are secretly working together and using the Akley group to complete the calculations needed for Frank's bomb. To silence him, Charlie convinces his wife (doesn't actually threaten but really, really pushes her) to plant some secrete material in the house of her lesbian lover so that rear end in a top hat cowoker gets arrested and sent to get tortured/interrogated by the intelligence operative. It starts to unravel in the last 2 episodes, but overall makes for great drama.
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Dec 8, 2014 16:46
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