The State of Games

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The State of Games

Joshlemagne: Mar 6, 2013

Kewpuh posted:

This is the thread you're talking about : http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3648335&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Here's my opinion on it. I think he has a lot of goofy opinions in that bigass OP. I think a lot of people made some funny posts in the thread with regards to that. I also know from past experience that if he would have got some thicker skin and went with the flow and took a step back and realized that he was typing up a novel on the writing of a video game like Gone Home and laughed about it like the rest of the posters in the thread instead of closing it and trying to hide from it, it probably would have morphed into something pretty good. It wasn't until he closed the thread that I moved it to the Imp Zone.

That's fair enough with respect to moving it to imp zone. But you're still pretty strongly implying that a certain amount of effort in a post is "too much" effort and should be mocked. And if no one knows where that line is they're just going to not risk it and default to minimal effort.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:24

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 12:01

Ularg: Mar 2, 2010; Just tell me I'm exotic.

Kewpuh posted:

Seriously I can just randomly pick a thread to look at and I never see this so-called threadshitting bogeyman that has infiltrated Games and spams memes and "lol effort"

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3649492 - Puzzle & Dragons 6.5: Hello Kitty and Satan, together at last.

Just skimming through the past 10 pages of that 80 page thread and everything is fine. This is a traditional Games thread that is completely unaffected by any reduction in overbearing moderation.

Perhaps you can narrow your search down to just posts by virtualboyCOLOR?

The Xbox sharktank long ran its course. It was great to revel in the constant headlines of a really incompetent company as they started handing out golden parachutes for the execs abandoning ship. Now it just seems like any other console, just slightly worse off than usual. It was funny again with all the gimmick posters until they went full internet detective.

Hell, I would be okay if we kept our current moderation but probate internet detectives. They're usually the creepiest bunch when you are trying to have a discussion and then they go and look up your Battlefield stats or if you're fat or something.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:25

Kewpuh: Oct 22, 2003; when i dip you dip we dip

Ularg posted:

Perhaps you can narrow your search down to just posts by virtualboyCOLOR?

The Xbox sharktank long ran its course. It was great to revel in the constant headlines of a really incompetent company as they started handing out golden parachutes for the execs abandoning ship. Now it just seems like any other console, just slightly worse off than usual. It was funny again with all the gimmick posters until they went full internet detective.

Hell, I would be okay if we kept our current moderation but probate internet detectives. They're usually the creepiest bunch when you are trying to have a discussion and then they go and look up your Battlefield stats or if you're fat or something.

What's wrong with virtualboyCOLOR? He gets dopey sometimes but he makes some funny posts every now and then. As far as the internet detectiving goes, the only instance really was Wuglus google searching Fulchrum and not even getting the right result but running with it anyways because it was seriously funny and it paid off in the most incredible way. That type of poo poo doesn't really happen anywhere outside of the sharktank though. And the rule about being a creepy fucker still exists and we still absolutely punish for actual legit weirdo helldumpy kind of stuff.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:30

Ularg: Mar 2, 2010; Just tell me I'm exotic.

Kewpuh posted:

What's wrong with virtualboyCOLOR? He gets dopey sometimes but he makes some funny posts every now and then. As far as the internet detectiving goes, the only instance really was Wuglus google searching Fulchrum and not even getting the right result but running with it anyways because it was seriously funny and it paid off in the most incredible way. That type of poo poo doesn't really happen anywhere outside of the sharktank though. And the rule about being a creepy fucker still exists and we still absolutely punish for actual legit weirdo helldumpy kind of stuff.

Okay, sounds reasonable. Thanks for the reply. And the Sharktank was definitely the only place where it didn't seem weird. But once personal photos started entering it I just couldn't stand to read it anymore.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:33

Kewpuh: Oct 22, 2003; when i dip you dip we dip

Joshlemagne posted:

That's fair enough with respect to moving it to imp zone. But you're still pretty strongly implying that a certain amount of effort in a post is "too much" effort and should be mocked. And if no one knows where that line is they're just going to not risk it and default to minimal effort.

I think if he wouldn't have included Gone Home, nobody would have noticed. Part of me thinks he deliberately put Gone Home in there just to kick the hornets nest. Anyone that followed the Gone Home thread in Games knows that it got super loving testy and hateful and drove people bonkers. But even then, there was some harmless trolling in there that would have died off at some point. I don't know what type of threads you're confusing that with though that would draw this instant influx of trolls. Like if I made some random thread about a game coming out on Steam and put some info in the OP, nobody is going to care. New threads for newer games get posted all the time and nothing bad happens in them. Unless this is all a ploy to get some type of thread protection for a Minority Perspectives thread :smugjones:

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:36

Silver Striker: May 22, 2013

I'm a big fan of the Imp Zone. It's a cool place. It went through some growing pains but it's in a good spot now. I joined relatively recently so I can't really comment on The Good Old Days but I think this forum is pretty good as it is. The only really awful thread I've seen is the gamers.txt thread and given how the older iterations of it turned out I don't think there's any way to save that thread from itself.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:42

Kewpuh: Oct 22, 2003; when i dip you dip we dip

Silver Striker posted:

I'm a big fan of the Imp Zone. It's a cool place. It went through some growing pains but it's in a good spot now. I joined relatively recently so I can't really comment on The Good Old Days but I think this forum is pretty good as it is. The only really awful thread I've seen is the gamers.txt thread and given how the older iterations of it turned out I don't think there's any way to save that thread from itself.

See this is the cool thing about the magic of forums though. I hate that thread also, but I don't even care to read it so I don't. Not every thread is going to be someones cup of tea. A bunch of dudes love posting about whatever gamers.txt even is at this point and they keep it all contained in that thread and they seem to enjoy themselves in it so who the hell am I to tell them otherwise.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:45

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

When a pregnant woman swims she is technically a submarine.
When you post here you are the gamers.txt

Life is mind blowing

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:54

Khorne: May 1, 2002

Joshlemagne posted:

That's fair enough with respect to moving it to imp zone. But you're still pretty strongly implying that a certain amount of effort in a post is "too much" effort and should be mocked. And if no one knows where that line is they're just going to not risk it and default to minimal effort.

More words isn't more effort. It's far more difficult to write accurately, briefly, and clearly than it is to write 10,000 words about some dumb topic. I scanned that post quickly and my first thought was "what is this actually about". I mean it's about writing in video games, but why am I going to read all of these words? The game list is actually useful, and I read that part of the thread. But the rest seems fluffed up and like it could have been condensed significantly.

The line is "Would I be interested in reading this myself?" or "If this entire thread were posts of this length written in the same way would I read the replies?" I tend to write too much sometimes, and the biggest tell that I am writing too much is that if I go back to the thread I'll only read the replies to what I wrote. If someone wrote something of similar length I'd ignore it. In fact, in most threads where you can do this you'll often ignore replies to write your own big reply that no one is going to read. And in your head that's fine because what you are saying is important, but each of those other nerds that wrote too much also thought the same thing.

If you want to actually put effort into something don't just write more words. Condense and omit things you've already written. There's really no line for too much effort, but there's certainly posts that are too long winded and skirting around a simpler point.

edit: The replies to that thread mostly seemed on topic. It didn't seem like it was that poorly received. Yeah, some people cracked jokes. A few one liners here and there aren't going to harm that thread. It seemed like a topic that could have easily lived on if it weren't abandoned. Someone didn't storm in and respond to each high-effort post with an image macro or disparaging remarks. That's the kind of stuff I wouldn't like to see going on, and it's the kind of stuff that doesn't go on.

Khorne fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Aug 10, 2014

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:55

Joshlemagne: Mar 6, 2013

Kewpuh posted:

I think if he wouldn't have included Gone Home, nobody would have noticed. Part of me thinks he deliberately put Gone Home in there just to kick the hornets nest. Anyone that followed the Gone Home thread in Games knows that it got super loving testy and hateful and drove people bonkers. But even then, there was some harmless trolling in there that would have died off at some point.

First I've never really been a fan of the whole "this particular topic just forces people to shitpost so instead of dealing with the shitposters we'll just not allow discussion of the topic". I'm not sure why a person that goes nuts that their thread was mocked needs to be driven out of the forums, but someone who goes into a frothing rage when a particular dumb game is brought up needs to be treated with kid gloves because the poor thing just can't control themself.

quote:

I don't know what type of threads you're confusing that with though that would draw this instant influx of trolls. Like if I made some random thread about a game coming out on Steam and put some info in the OP, nobody is going to care. New threads for newer games get posted all the time and nothing bad happens in them. Unless this is all a ploy to get some type of thread protection for a Minority Perspectives thread

Basically any kind of thread that's not like that? One of the big complaints I remember from the last thread was how every thread was a megathread or a specific game thread. That most people don't even bother looking at the thread list because there's nothing there that's going to surprise them. Why's anyone going to bother trying anything new when the expected result is getting relentlessly flamed and the mod's response is "Oh it probably would have stopped eventually". I can't give you more specific examples because no one is making those threads. I'm just giving my opinion as to why that might be. It's difficult to step outside the status quo. And when people see someone try it and get smacked down, they're going to be more likely to scuttle back to their megathreads rather than try again. Just sayin' that if you see someone doing something a little different and trying to start a different conversation next time maybe try encouraging that a little bit, even if the thread isn't perfect.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 02:56

Kewpuh: Oct 22, 2003; when i dip you dip we dip

Joshlemagne posted:

First I've never really been a fan of the whole "this particular topic just forces people to shitpost so instead of dealing with the shitposters we'll just not allow discussion of the topic". I'm not sure why a person that goes nuts that their thread was mocked needs to be driven out of the forums, but someone who goes into a frothing rage when a particular dumb game is brought up needs to be treated with kid gloves because the poor thing just can't control themself.

Basically any kind of thread that's not like that? One of the big complaints I remember from the last thread was how every thread was a megathread or a specific game thread. That most people don't even bother looking at the thread list because there's nothing there that's going to surprise them. Why's anyone going to bother trying anything new when the expected result is getting relentlessly flamed and the mod's response is "Oh it probably would have stopped eventually". I can't give you more specific examples because no one is making those threads. I'm just giving my opinion as to why that might be. It's difficult to step outside the status quo. And when people see someone try it and get smacked down, they're going to be more likely to scuttle back to their megathreads rather than try again. Just sayin' that if you see someone doing something a little different and trying to start a different conversation next time maybe try encouraging that a little bit, even if the thread isn't perfect.

That dude wasn't driven off the forums. He messaged like 10 different mods asking that he be banned. Almost all of us completely disregarded it because that's loving retarded. And nobody went into a frothing rage in that thread. It just looks like they posted jokes and trolled the OP a little bit unless I'm just not seeing something :confused:

As far as your concern of threads getting relentlessly threadshat in, I guess if you don't really give me some examples what kind of thread you're talking about that would even warrant that then I'm just going to end up sitting here confused. This forum is about video games and every thread that gets posted here should be about video games in one way or another. I've seen a billion different threads about games and I never really see whatever it is you think happens so I dunno what you want me to say at this point.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 03:02

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

The OP of that writing in games thread really is the definition of someone who needs to lurk more, I know that is a clich� but in his case it's true.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 03:06

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

The weirdest thing about that dude wasn't even the bad thread, it was his weird freakout when people made fun of him. Like a few people go 'gas' and suddenly he's committing internet seppuku.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 03:20

Joshlemagne: Mar 6, 2013

Kewpuh posted:

That dude wasn't driven off the forums. He messaged like 10 different mods asking that he be banned. Almost all of us completely disregarded it because that's loving retarded. And nobody went into a frothing rage in that thread. It just looks like they posted jokes and trolled the OP a little bit unless I'm just not seeing something

I'm not talking about that thread specifically but Gone Home in general. You yourself said it "drove people bonkers".

quote:

As far as your concern of threads getting relentlessly threadshat in, I guess if you don't really give me some examples what kind of thread you're talking about that would even warrant that then I'm just going to end up sitting here confused. This forum is about video games and every thread that gets posted here should be about video games in one way or another. I've seen a billion different threads about games and I never really see whatever it is you think happens so I dunno what you want me to say at this point.

Basically anything on the topic of videogames that's not about a specific game or genre. We've seen how a thread about writing in games would go. Maybe if it were more competently constructed it would be different but who's going to try now? Imagine if someone made a thread about what makes a good game character, for example, how do you think that would go? Or even something simple like what makes gameplay "good". Can you really see something like that being posted here and not being terrible? Do you think there's anything that you personally could do to nudge a thread like that in the direction of not being terrible if it were to pop up? I'm saying maybe people don't even try to make threads like that because they know how they would go. I don't have any solutions though. Maybe have people post ideas for threads they've had but never got up the courage to post and you can pick one that seems interesting and say that you'd keep an eye on it for a page or two to make sure things stay civil? Just see how it goes?

peter gabriel posted:

The OP of that writing in games thread really is the definition of someone who needs to lurk more, I know that is a clich� but in his case it's true.

Endorph posted:

The weirdest thing about that dude wasn't even the bad thread, it was his weird freakout when people made fun of him. Like a few people go 'gas' and suddenly he's committing internet seppuku.

I brought it up because it was literally the only example I could think of of a thread that wasn't "Let's talk about this specific game" or "Let's talk about games in this specific category". I really wish there was a better example to offer. I guess what I'm trying to say is even if the guy really deserved it, I can see it having a chilling effect on people thinking about posting threads especially if you're like me and weren't following the situation super-closely.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 03:37

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

If you're struggling to find an example, how big of a problem can it be?
I'm not trying to be a dick by asking that, it's a genuine question.
Also, people having a fear about posting a new thread is not a bad thing in here, well, maybe a 'fear' is a bit strong but having people think twice about posting new threads isn't a bad thing I don't think.
You don't catch me posting new threads, and there's a good reason for that, I'm a tard.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 03:45

elf help book: Aug 5, 2004; Though the battle might be endless, I will never give up

I posted a thread asking about fishing games and it turns out no one here knows a drat thing about fishing games.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 03:52

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

elf help book posted:

I posted a thread asking about fishing games and it turns out no one here knows a drat thing about fishing games.

The Dreamcast had a good fishing peripheral and a sweet rear end Bass fishing game, you should really PM me about that kind of stuff.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 03:55

FadedReality: Sep 5, 2007; Okurrrr?

The example I'd point to was the ill fated gamesjournalism.txt thread. It went on for a while as most .txt threads do, poking fun at examples of awful or self important game journalism blowhards and people discussing what makes for good writing about games and what doesn't. Then one showed up to defend the e-honor of his colleagues which led quickly from slapfight to crazy poo poo and all the way down to enormous walls of text about how good/bad Anita Sarkeesian was. Which rightfully got the thread locked. Which IIRC was the only moderation in the only thread that was devoted solely to discussing and dressing down the amateur rear end games journalism field.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 03:55

Shadow Puppet Of: Feb 13, 2014; If I worked there I'd have freaked out long ago and smeared toner all over my naked body, flopping around to spell out "I TOLD YOU SO!" on the carpet until campus security could drag me away.

peter gabriel posted:

The Dreamcast had a good fishing peripheral and a sweet rear end Bass fishing game, you should really PM me about that kind of stuff.

Do not listen to this rear end in a top hat, fishing games start and end with Bassin's Black Bass with Hank Parker for the SNES. PM me if you want to know the best time of day to use a Jig & Pork bait around the bouys of Green Valley Lake.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 04:07

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

Shadow Puppet Of posted:

Do not listen to this rear end in a top hat, fishing games start and end with Bassin's Black Bass with Hank Parker for the SNES. PM me if you want to know the best time of day to use a Jig & Pork bait around the bouys of Green Valley Lake.

How about crawling out of your man cave once in a while and going fishing for real you loving turbonerd?

ITT: passions run high about fishin'

# ? Aug 10, 2014 04:12

elf help book: Aug 5, 2004; Though the battle might be endless, I will never give up

http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=44&posticon=256

# ? Aug 10, 2014 04:14

Kewpuh: Oct 22, 2003; when i dip you dip we dip

Joshlemagne posted:

I'm not talking about that thread specifically but Gone Home in general. You yourself said it "drove people bonkers".

Basically anything on the topic of videogames that's not about a specific game or genre. We've seen how a thread about writing in games would go. Maybe if it were more competently constructed it would be different but who's going to try now? Imagine if someone made a thread about what makes a good game character, for example, how do you think that would go? Or even something simple like what makes gameplay "good". Can you really see something like that being posted here and not being terrible? Do you think there's anything that you personally could do to nudge a thread like that in the direction of not being terrible if it were to pop up? I'm saying maybe people don't even try to make threads like that because they know how they would go. I don't have any solutions though. Maybe have people post ideas for threads they've had but never got up the courage to post and you can pick one that seems interesting and say that you'd keep an eye on it for a page or two to make sure things stay civil? Just see how it goes?

I brought it up because it was literally the only example I could think of of a thread that wasn't "Let's talk about this specific game" or "Let's talk about games in this specific category". I really wish there was a better example to offer. I guess what I'm trying to say is even if the guy really deserved it, I can see it having a chilling effect on people thinking about posting threads especially if you're like me and weren't following the situation super-closely.

Okay sorry but I'm kind of tired of discussing this hypothetical situation that hasn't happened before. Like seriously I've put way more effort into this subject than there needs to be. If someone posts a thread and it gets relentlessly trolled for absolutely zero reason at all then it will be taken care of. I honestly have no idea what more you want me to say on this subject.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 04:21

peter gabriel: Nov 8, 2011; Hello Commandos

I think he should post a thread about it :getin:

# ? Aug 10, 2014 04:23

01011001: Dec 26, 2012

Joshlemagne posted:

I can't say I really agree with that. A counterexample would be the writing in games thread that one guy made. It started in the Steam thread with a pretty normal civil conversation. Then the guy did the right thing and decided to stop derailing that thread and take it to its own separate thread. It seemed like a reasonable amount of effort went into the OP, but then it was pretty much inundated with shitposters and wound up getting moved to the imp zone (or byob I don't really remember). I can't really say after seeing that that it surprises me people don't want to make new threads. Why take the risk of ending up at the bottom of a mod-sanctioned dogpile and then tossed to the fyad-lites when you can stay safe in your megathreads?

Overall I haven't really seen a huge change to Games. But there's a definite trend of effort being met with "lol effort" in the wider forums that's creeping in here. If I wanted to see people endlessly emptyquote and post stupid memes then I can go to literally any other forum on the internet for that.

Joshlemagne posted:

I brought it up because it was literally the only example I could think of of a thread that wasn't "Let's talk about this specific game" or "Let's talk about games in this specific category". I really wish there was a better example to offer. I guess what I'm trying to say is even if the guy really deserved it, I can see it having a chilling effect on people thinking about posting threads especially if you're like me and weren't following the situation super-closely.

the guy youre defending posted:

Writing!

It's frequently said and widely accepted that the writing in videogames is not as good as that found in a book, or even a film. This is weird, because writing has been a part of the medium since not long after its inception. The original text adventure - Colossal Cave Adventure - was designed in 1976, and is nothing but writing. Even non-text games of that era show elements of writing, even if that writing is limited to the premise - the Space Invaders are invading! (Spoilers: we lose).

So, if the writing in videogames has had the same forty years to improve as the rest of the medium, what's the deal? Why does it still suck? Does it still suck? Can it be as good as a book, or a film? Is it fair to compare these media and say that one is better or worse than the other? There's a lot of room for discussion and opinion here, but in-depth discussions of game writing traditionally don't happen much in the gaming community outside of some specific genres, even though story is an essential component of a huge majority of single-player games. There is, for example, no SA thread specifically dedicated to writing in videogames. What's that? This is one of those? Boy, that's meta.

This thread is for discussion of all issues related to game writing. This is a spectacularly wide-ranging topic, so there should be plenty to talk about. However, it's important to note that everyone has a different depth of knowledge about writing, so with this OP I'll try to provide a bit of a primer so that we're all starting on the same springboard.

What is videogame writing?

This might sound like a stupid question, but it's not. When you hear the word "writing", your mind most likely jumps to one of several concepts. Let's use films as an example. Here are three films notable for good writing: Seven, Inglourious Basterds, and Shaun Of The Dead. All three of these films show evidence of great writing, but it's different in each case. Seven, for example, has an excellent, tightly-written plot which keeps you watching right up until the phenomenal payoff, which sticks with you for a while after the credits have rolled - but the dialogue is often a little stilted. Inglourious Basterds is driven purely by situation, tension and dialogue. It's a slow burn, and the plot actually doesn't really matter all that much, but it's a riveting watch. Shaun Of The Dead's plot and situation are both standard, boring zombie movie fare, but it excels in clever homage, satire, wordplay and witticism.

The point I'm coming around to is that writing isn't narrowly defined. In a story-based videogame, nearly everything you come across has been written and designed. Take the original Tomb Raider. There's plot, and there's dialogue... and then there's that bit where you first slide down the side of the Sphinx and the camera suddenly draws way back and shows you just how tiny you are in comparison to the level. That wasn't a camera glitch, somebody wrote it with the intent of producing that effect.

So, broadest definition: videogame writing is anything that attempts to convey an idea to the player. It's not just the plot of a game, or the dialogue, or the text logs you find - it's all three and more.

Alright, but surely videogame writing is never going to be in the league of, say, a good book, or a movie, or a Japanese comic about sexy witch schoolgirls.

This misconception is older than Grandma's toaster and we need to stop saying it, or it might come true.

The fact is that we've been saying this about every new form of media since the Egyptians decided to try staining words onto paper instead of hammering them into the wall. When films came onto the scene, people lamented that they were intrinsically less worthwhile than books. For years people thought television was the idiot's opiate, and some still do. People thought that comic books were vulgar and couldn't be used to tell a story worth reading. We've been wrong every time and we're wrong this time.

Comparing games to films is like comparing films to books. It's a fool's game. Both films and books can have fantastic writing, but you can't compare them with each other directly because they're a different medium and must use different methods to convey their stories. You've probably heard the phrase "the language of cinema" - the way in which films are shot to convey atmospheres and emotions that wouldn't be possible in, for example, a stage play, or even a book. This language has been developed and improved continuously throughout the history of cinema, and we're still discovering new techniques and storytelling methods. Nowadays, claiming a film couldn't ever be as good as a book would strike many people as a silly comparison - film is a totally different art form.

Videogames are the same. They have their own language, which is still being developed. There is stuff that they can do that films and books can't (provide you with a choice! Ask for your opinion! Judge you by your actions!), and there is stuff that films and books can do that videogames usually can't (control pacing! Dictate the opinions of the protagonist! Be the subject of an interesting conversation with your dad!). Writers are still learning how to do things in this medium, and it's only lately that the audience for games with real, worthwhile story is starting to emerge. Now, with the advent of Steam and the indie game, more and more experimentation is being done in this art form. We've already seen major improvements in game storytelling in the past three years. In the next ten, we're going to see this improvement continue, just like it has with every other form of media. And one day we'll get our 2001: A Space Odyssey, our Watchmen, or our Breaking Bad. We're on our way already.

OK, I'm convinced by your totally bulletproof argument. But I buy all the most popular videogames, and the stories all suck!

Well, yeah, to an extent that's true. At the moment (and this is changing, if slowly), the big games that you've seen advertised on TV are mostly about spectacle, not story (and it's worthwhile to remember that spectacle isn't a bad thing). But recently, good writing has become much more important to media consumers in general - witness the success of True Detective, House Of Cards, and Fargo. This is already starting to bleed over into mainstream videogames, even if for now it's just casting Kevin Spacey in the new CoD.

But yeah, at the moment, if you want good stories in games, more often than not you'll have to go looking for them.

So, what should I look out for if I want to see some different ways in which games can have good writing?

(This section is painfully incomplete because I am but a man. I will add good suggestions to this list as they are suggested and discussed in the thread.)

Gone Home - If nothing else, this game certainly provokes a lot of debate. In Gone Home, you explore an empty house which is packed with detail - most everything can be picked up and examined, and further informs the story that you're being told. I like Gone Home, because it's a great example of a storytelling method that only videogames are capable of.

Spec Ops: The Line - Another divisive game. Spec Ops starts off like any mediocre shooty war game, and then yanks the rug out from under you a couple of hours in and forces you to rethink things.

The Stanley Parable - I'm just gonna stop saying that games are divisive because it seems like every game with a focus on writing splits people right down the middle. The Stanley Parable can be described as a collection of surreal comedic vignettes which explore and send up the mechanics and idiosyncracies of videogames. There's a lot to discover and think about, and behind the jokes the points being made are often pretty clever, even if the vignettes can be a little hit-and-miss.

The Last Of Us - A good example of a well-written triple-A game. The Last Of Us is a solid enough action game, but the real draw is the development of the interpersonal relationship between Joel and Ellie, which is continually well-explored and has a powerful payoff.

Mass Effect Trilogy - Whether Mass Effect is well-written is very debatable, but it's worth playing because the sheer amount of writing over the course of the three games is impressive, and keeping it reactive and influencable by the player (to whatever extent) is an impressive technical achievement.

Alpha Protocol - The plot is your standard Hollywood spy thriller, but anyone who's played Alpha Protocol can tell you just how good the writing is. The whole game is massively reactive and Mike's decisions and attitudes can dramatically affect the outcome of the game. Every major character is well-realised with full backstories that you can discover, read up on, and even exploit.

The Walking Dead - Some of the best videogame storytelling ever produced, Telltale's five-part Walking Dead series is the perfect zombie game - one with no shooting at all (well, almost none). Instead, the focus is on survival, decision-making and human relationships. The second season is in progress, and I haven't played it, but the first is almost universally critically acclaimed. Warning: this game will make you feel like poo poo and break your heart.

Anything else I can check out?

If you'd like to listen to videogame designers talk about writing, you could do worse than to listen to Idle Thumbs. The podcast is focused on general game design rather than specifically writing, but the cast members have worked on games such as The Walking Dead and Gone Home. It's also just a really good podcast about videogames in general.

Seems a bit late to abandon this Q&A conceit now. Could you wrap up the OP somehow?

Alright, I'm just about done, so now I hand over to everyone else. This thread is for discussion of writing in games, and games with good or bad writing. Basically if you can take the words "games" and "writing" and mash 'em together in a fun-sounding sentence, you can discuss that.

That said, this is a topic that tends to incite lovely argument so there need to be a couple of ground rules.

Don't just poo poo all over games you don't like - if you call something bad, justify it properly. We can call this the "Gone Home" rule. It's fine to criticise a game, but you need to qualify it with a good reason. What, specifically, didn't you like about it? What parts didn't work for you? If a game is divisive, that means some people really like it, so don't come in and say it sucks without qualifying, or you're just going to wind people up and cause a lovely argument.
Don't fakepost - People have all sorts of weird, lovely opinions about videogames, so don't assume that you can post something incredibly dumb on purpose, and people will understand it and laugh. Someone will take you seriously and there will be an lovely argument.
Don't get angry - you're a grown-up for christ's sake
Crazy Catch-All: Don't start lovely arguments - Just... don't. You know how not to do that, right? Before you post anything, ask yourself the question "Am I starting a lovely argument?" and if you are don't post. Remember your ABC. Always Be Checking-whether-you-are-starting-a-lovely-argument-and-not-posting-if-you-are.

I'll add more to this OP as needed and suggested. Please suggest good links if you know em, or anything important you feel I've missed, or disagree with anything I've written. Otherwise, discuss away!

i dont care how much requisite effort went into a post, im re-reading this now and nothing about this isnt insufferable

# ? Aug 10, 2014 04:36

abagofcheetos: Oct 29, 2003; by FactsAreUseless

peter gabriel posted:

How about crawling out of your man cave once in a while and going fishing for real you loving turbonerd?

ITT: passions run high about fishin'

My friend and I in high school dominated Fisherman's Bait on the PSX so bad that we had to just turn off the system after like two hours because the timer never ran out.

This is the true legacy of the Xbone shark tank: fishing games.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 04:40

QuantaStarFire: May 18, 2006; Grimey Drawer

Kewpuh posted:

Okay sorry but I'm kind of tired of discussing this hypothetical situation that hasn't happened before. Like seriously I've put way more effort into this subject than there needs to be. If someone posts a thread and it gets relentlessly trolled for absolutely zero reason at all then it will be taken care of. I honestly have no idea what more you want me to say on this subject.

I remember several attempts in the past to make a "Women and Gaming" or "Gaming and Feminism" or some thread along those lines and watching it get relentlessly shitposted to oblivion before being mercifully gassed, so there's that as an example I guess? I dunno, if people knew for certain what sorts of topics were taboo to post about, they might have an easier time thinking of threads to post that won't get horribly mocked.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 04:57

Zedsdeadbaby: Jun 14, 2008; You have been called out, in the ways of old.

Maybe it's time to get rid of the Blizzard subforum, World of Warcraft I can understand if it has its own subforum, but Diablo and Starcraft are basically dogpiles on whoever poor fucker decided to open his mouth and post the wrong opinion for the day. I enjoy it of course. It just ain't worth its own forum.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 05:25

ikanreed: Sep 25, 2009; I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!

Honestly, I just like that the forums can change tone sometimes. Nothing worse than a death spiral.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 05:33

Wrestlepig: Feb 25, 2011; my mum says im cool; Toilet Rascal

QuantaStarFire posted:

I remember several attempts in the past to make a "Women and Gaming" or "Gaming and Feminism" or some thread along those lines and watching it get relentlessly shitposted to oblivion before being mercifully gassed, so there's that as an example I guess? I dunno, if people knew for certain what sorts of topics were taboo to post about, they might have an easier time thinking of threads to post that won't get horribly mocked.

Excluding all the arguments about whether it's cool or not to post about that stuff, they really don't work as singular threads. They get cliquey, get into arguments with other cliques or just run out of things to say and just go on in this really stale corpse state. I think that those discussions are generally better to have in the game's thread instead, and something about harassment online or something similar could go in D&D.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 06:06

Synthetic Hermit: Apr 4, 2012; mega survoltage!!!; Grimey Drawer

The problem I have with the megathreads is that they're mega. They're made to be very general threads (entire consoles or franchises) in which the current topic keeps changing. TBH, once one goes over 20 pages, I can't follow it anymore, and have a hard time locating information in it. NeoGAF splits ALL topics into separate threads, whether it's a new headline or not. Multiple threads for one console, multiple threads for one game, multiple retro gaming threads, etc.

For example, they have one thread for all of Halo, along with two threads for The Master Chief Collection - one more for teh noobz, one more for the teh hardcorez (which became the primary thread after the early confusion died down) - and separate threads for Wii U CPU and GPU discussion.

I absolutely prefer this focused, steady-stream style over our "cram it all into one big box" approach.

I'd recommend transitioning to that style by moving all the existing megathreads to a temporary subforum where we can be weaned off of them, while new ones become illegal in the main forum (just telling people to "post whatever you want" without taking out the megathreads only results in drowned threads). More threads per page and/or smaller title heights would aid in sifting through the surge of specific topics.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:16

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

I would recommend doing everything in our power to be as little like NeoGAF as possible.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:18

elf help book: Aug 5, 2004; Though the battle might be endless, I will never give up

That Wii U GPU thread is 238 pages.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:18

virtualboyCOLOR: Dec 22, 2004

Synthetic Hermit posted:

The problem I have with the megathreads is that they're mega. They're made to be very general threads (entire consoles or franchises) in which the current topic keeps changing. TBH, once one goes over 20 pages, I can't follow it anymore, and have a hard time locating information in it. NeoGAF splits ALL topics into separate threads, whether it's a new headline or not. Multiple threads for one console, multiple threads for one game, multiple retro gaming threads, etc.

For example, they have one thread for all of Halo, along with two threads for The Master Chief Collection - one more for teh noobz, one more for the teh hardcorez (which became the primary thread after the early confusion died down) - and separate threads for Wii U CPU and GPU discussion.

I absolutely prefer this focused, steady-stream style over our "cram it all into one big box" approach.

I'd recommend transitioning to that style by moving all the existing megathreads to a temporary subforum where we can be weaned off of them, while new ones become illegal in the main forum (just telling people to "post whatever you want" without taking out the megathreads only results in drowned threads). More threads per page and/or smaller title heights would aid in sifting through the surge of specific topics.

This is the worst suggestion and we already had a bunch of posters crying big pussy tears over their feelings getting hurt because someone didn't end a sentence with a period

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:20

Sally: Jan 9, 2007; Don't post Small Dash!

Endorph posted:

I would recommend doing everything in our power to be as little like NeoGAF as possible.

Pretty much this. Also, if Megathreads move too fast or have too much "white noise" posting or whatever it is that people have difficulty following, why not just skip to the end? There's going to be some level of redundancy throughout the thread, so just skip to what's currently going on. Ideally, the OP would also be active and keep the first post updated with current news and important stuff.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:39

The Kins: Oct 2, 2004

As far as "news headline" threads go, I don't see a point to having a subforum exclusively for them, but I also don't see why you shouldn't just make a thread for them anyway if you have anything to contribute beyond "...discuss!". The recent thread about the Twitch changes is a good example.

:justpost:

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:41

Shadow Puppet Of: Feb 13, 2014; If I worked there I'd have freaked out long ago and smeared toner all over my naked body, flopping around to spell out "I TOLD YOU SO!" on the carpet until campus security could drag me away.

What is this need to find information that keeps being mentioned?

A forum with a historically broken search engine is the wrong place to be using as in information repository. Setup a wiki if you want to catalogue the various shapes of pokemon dicks. Bookmark the posts individually yourself. Its a forum not an almanac. Let the talk flow naturally, let the threads be mega. It should be on you, not everyone else, to collate the data you want collated.

Lotwax already tried to shoehorn Games into his own version of GameFAQs (while entirely missing the boat on the richer goldmine of Lets Play) And that failed because lists of facts are not appealing to anyone. Unless they are sales facts about a certain Study-Helper.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:41

Sally: Jan 9, 2007; Don't post Small Dash!

The Kins posted:

As far as "news headline" threads go, I don't see a point to having a subforum exclusively for them, but I also don't see why you shouldn't just make a thread for them anyway if you have anything to contribute beyond "...discuss!". The recent thread about the Twitch changes is a good example.

Yeah, if it's really that needed, someone should just make a CURRENT GAMING NEWS thread. If people find it useful, they'll post in it. If they don't, they won't.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:43

teen phone cutie: Jun 18, 2012; last year i rewrote something awful from scratch because i hate myself

Endorph posted:

I would recommend doing everything in our power to be as little like NeoGAF as possible.

Eh. It's the members that make that site bad. The organization of the two game forums is simplistic and works.

but seriously. gently caress OPs like this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=871568

all it does is turn thread-making into a formulaic three step process

1) Find any stupid article about games
2) Post the link and a random quote from article
3) Add one sentence that encourages no discussion.

So let's scrap the idea of making a forum for just headlines because they inspire pretty terrible OPs. Again, GBS was a headline forum. Let's not repeat past mistakes.

e; Also waiting months for account activation on Neogaf is obnoxious.

teen phone cutie fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Aug 10, 2014

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:51

ninjewtsu: Oct 9, 2012

Synthetic Hermit posted:

The problem I have with the megathreads is that they're mega. They're made to be very general threads (entire consoles or franchises) in which the current topic keeps changing. TBH, once one goes over 20 pages, I can't follow it anymore, and have a hard time locating information in it. NeoGAF splits ALL topics into separate threads, whether it's a new headline or not. Multiple threads for one console, multiple threads for one game, multiple retro gaming threads, etc.

For example, they have one thread for all of Halo, along with two threads for The Master Chief Collection - one more for teh noobz, one more for the teh hardcorez (which became the primary thread after the early confusion died down) - and separate threads for Wii U CPU and GPU discussion.

I absolutely prefer this focused, steady-stream style over our "cram it all into one big box" approach.

I'd recommend transitioning to that style by moving all the existing megathreads to a temporary subforum where we can be weaned off of them, while new ones become illegal in the main forum (just telling people to "post whatever you want" without taking out the megathreads only results in drowned threads). More threads per page and/or smaller title heights would aid in sifting through the surge of specific topics.

So my understanding of what you are suggesting is: make Imp Zone the main Games forum, and then take everything in the main Games forum and put it in its own subforum. What do you recommend calling this megathread subforum? I hope the answer is Imp Zone

The thing about the megathreads is they are less "a thread discussing this game" and more "a chatroom where fans of this game can talk" after the first 20 or so pages. Don't try to read or keep up with all 100 pages, just look through the last three or so pages so you're up to date ont he current conversation and can join in.

# ? Aug 10, 2014 07:59

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# ? Apr 23, 2024 12:01

limaCAT: Dec 22, 2007; il pistone e male; Slippery Tilde

Synthetic Hermit posted:

I absolutely prefer this focused, steady-stream style over our "cram it all into one big box" approach.

I'd recommend transitioning to that style by moving all the existing megathreads to a temporary subforum where we can be weaned off of them, while new ones become illegal in the main forum (just telling people to "post whatever you want" without taking out the megathreads only results in drowned threads).

Kewpuh stated you can open your threads already.
Why don't you open your master chief collection thread or your "how to solve the xbox gpu overheating issues" thrad and simply show us that it's a better way?

Synthetic Hermit posted:

More threads per page and/or smaller title heights would aid in sifting through the surge of specific topics.

I'm too lazy to write my graesemonkey script, but I'll gladly accept a greasemonkey script giving me that CSS style thing! Will you write me one? Thanks m8 O7!

elf help book posted:

That Wii U GPU thread is 238 pages.

Half of which are variations on

# ? Aug 10, 2014 08:39

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The State of Games

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