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Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!



I don’t know if I’d say that. At bottom you’d need better mechanics, which wouldn’t be hard except that faster-paced sports games have sold quite poorly these past few years.

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Takuan
May 6, 2007


Tonight @8:05 EST(01:05 GMT)GAME Pro Wrestling presents Still Alive, brought to you by Aperture Science Laboratories!
-After an amazing time limit draw, Ganondorf and Terra face each other again for the PCGP World Championship, this time in a 2 Out Of 3 Falls Match!
-Bowser instigated a backstage confrontation with Zangief specifically to get management's attention. It worked, and the two will square off in a singles match.
-Duke Nukem will attempt to take the PCGP Cross-Platform Championship from the so-far unbeaten Shadow Lady!
-Ayla continues her quest to prove she's the strongest by challenging NEMESIS!
-The Super Mario Bros defend their PCGP Co-Op Championships against Mettaton & 2B!
-Tracer defends the Dot TV championship against a New Challenger, the 8th member of Wily-Gun!
-All this and much, much more!

https://www.twitch.tv/gameprowrestling

coconono
Aug 11, 2004

I bet against K-1


Davros1 posted:

I think one problem with anyone coming up with a new wrestling game is, that despite the flaws in the WWE games, they have so much content in them, that any game that doesn't match up would be considered a failure.

I dunno, give a good enough gameplay system with an open enough environment to play through and you can get away with 16 wrestlers and a CAW system. The big thing is the gameplay. Wrestling, at its core, is built around counters so the core of the gameplay is counters and then big moves. The other thing is making the ring and areas around it fun to use that gameplay. WWE games rely too much on hotspot mechanics, I miss the old days when you could find some unintended way to drop someone on their heads from great heights.

But that's if you want to do a wrestling game with wrestlers. I'd rather see something other than wrestling games with faces I know. Like a NJPW x River City Ransom. Or Okada's yacht simulator.

Lead Pipe Cinch
Mar 10, 2003

Heavy Metal Bakesale

If I grew up with and deeply loved the AKI engine games and mainly just wanted to futz around with matches with CAWs people with more time made, would Fire Pro or 2K19 be the better option for me? Or are both so far removed from that feeling it’s probably better for me to continue not owning a wrestling video game?

STONE COLD 64
Oct 20, 2006

austin 3:16 says shut up. shut hte fuck up. where is my beer. i need hel

fire pro is closer but the gameplay is incredibly timing specific.

remusclaw
Dec 8, 2009



I love Fire Pro, but the AKI games have never even been touched as far as being fun to play goes. With the caveat that even in the AKI games, cage matches suck. Cage matches are never good in wrestling games.

Takuan
May 6, 2007


The game play of Fire Pro definitely takes some getting used to, but once it clicks, it's pretty fun. It has about the same pace and flow of the AKI games.

CarlCX
Dec 14, 2003

this is a job for the Punk

Yeah, Fire Pro has the AKI flow but it's not quite as immediately friendly as they were; spacing and timing are less forgiving and certain things like reversals are handled automatically rather than manually. The current 2k games are trying much harder to be a wrestling simulation, with pretty mixed results on pacing and smoothness. Also basically 90% of 2k matches are managing your pool of reversals and it's the worst.

In terms of CAWS alone, Fire Pro has a better downloading suite and much more detailed wrestler behavior, 2k19 has way better visual detail and the Universe mode puts a lot of variety into smashing your action figures together.

Lead Pipe Cinch
Mar 10, 2003

Heavy Metal Bakesale

Fire Pro sounds like it’s going to scratch my itch then. “Pool of reversals” sounds terrible.

I’m just gonna load the game up with end of days WCW guys anyway, so visuals aren’t a primary concern since my preferred roster is going to be CAW heavy.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

Somehow, even more irritating than I look.

I'm pretty sure I've seen Johnny Gargano and Ricochet blow through an entire 2k19 size pool of reversals on one sequence.

rovert
Jun 10, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 5 days!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fZ7bXwaPbA

Angry_Ed
Mar 30, 2010


Grimey Drawer

remusclaw posted:

I love Fire Pro, but the AKI games have never even been touched as far as being fun to play goes. With the caveat that even in the AKI games, cage matches suck. Cage matches are never good in wrestling games.

Would rather play an AKI game cage match than a DOR 2 Cage Match, featuring nobody selling poo poo ever.

Astro7x
Aug 4, 2004
Thinks It's All Real

Maxwell Lord posted:

The problem with wrestling games is sort of a microcosm of sports games in general. Used to be you had lots of titles ranging from very sim to casual and arcade stuff that deliberately played with the rules (the NBA Street series where you do tricks to power up ultradunks that are so powerful they take points from the other team is a good example), but eventually dev costs and overall complexity went up, publishers started buying exclusives (or in wrestling's case, competitors went out of business), and the market contracted to "just the one annual detailed simulation for the dedicated fans of the sport". Don't like Madden for whatever reason? Well, gently caress you, that's all you're getting.

It's worse for wrestling because it's a niche to start with, so even the one main series doesn't have the resources it needs (though with 2k it's largely a question of the time it would take to make a new engine.) And WWE's... acute degree of brand control is also a problem. But mostly it's a combination of costs going up and the market narrowing.

If WWE All-Stars had sold well, who knows?

My dream idea was to hope that someone would take the GLOW license from the Netflix show and try to make an arcade game out of it with the AKI engine. You’d only need to make a dozen wrestlers, one arena, focus on making the game fun, and sell it for like $10-$20 as a digital only game. You wouldn’t have to put all the stuff in that the 2K games have. You just need singles, tag, and a battle royal like the original AKI games. Just focus on making the game fun and people would probably buy it.

I just hate the 2K games so much. I borrow it from the library each year and they are not fun at all

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012

plz remember that it was ~ME~ who told you that everything you like is actually really not good, because I knew all along.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbGRDn-XMZc the newLegacy gang doing the CHIKARA game creation mode beta

Gavok
Oct 10, 2005

Brock! Oh, man, I'm sorry about your...

...tooth?


Chris James 2 posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbGRDn-XMZc the newLegacy gang doing the CHIKARA game creation mode beta

The game has Alex's "You can't escape!" super from Street Fighter III (two Germans and a jumping powerbomb). That's awesome.

unimportantguy
Dec 25, 2012

Maybe she has no parents and was raised by dogs?

I'm not convinced there's actually money in the wrestling game market. The commercial failure of Fire Pro and the dwindling sales of the WWE games kind of point to there just not being enough consumers to market to.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

We All Live In Kawalimus' House


no one else will make money but as long as they continue to sell over 300,000 copies in the first week of release, WWE games will be worth the license to poo poo out quick cashgrabs built ontop of the last thing. all of the 2k sports games are low budget for big releases not including the extra licensing they do for basketball that dwarfs anything they invest into WWE

ChrisBTY
Mar 29, 2012

this glorious monument


When you put it like that it's harder to begrudge their business model.

Angry_Ed
Mar 30, 2010


Grimey Drawer

jesus WEP posted:

well gently caress man don’t leave us hanging

Sorry, had to make GIFs first.

So the last 4 was Spider-man (in nWo Wolfpac gear), Steve Austin, Rick Rude, and Jun Akiyama. First there was a double elimination to bring it to two:


And despite having Austin on the ropes, he was the fresher man so...


This gave me flashbacks to Royal Rumble '97 when, at the time, I thought Steve Austin was an rear end in a top hat for cheating his way to victory. Can't deny him doing the backwards somersault away from the ropes and flipping Spider-Man off was cool though.

DoctorDelaware
Mar 24, 2013


Five minutes after the game ends, tune in for N.E.W.S.: Brave New World!

Lineup
"Outlaw" Johnny Rio, "The Judge" Deacon Dale, and Marshall Law vs. The Destroyer, The Captain, and Crash & Burn
Johnny "[BEEP]in'" Tourrette, "The Devil You Know" Isaac Devlin, and the Strife Division vs. Tonia Mercado, Kia Avery, and the East Side Angels

The winners of these two matches will face off in separate matches later for the Headline, Network, and Eye-Team Titles!

Mark Tower vs. Justicio IV

NWC WORLD TITLE MATCH:
Nate Colton (c) vs. Matsuko Yoshida

https://www.twitch.tv/doctordelaware

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

you're a flower. you're also a rainbow and a river. you are the manifestation of all perfection and i want to i don't fucking know, but you are fucking perfect


Angry_Ed posted:

Sorry, had to make GIFs first.

So the last 4 was Spider-man (in nWo Wolfpac gear), Steve Austin, Rick Rude, and Jun Akiyama. First there was a double elimination to bring it to two:


Rude and Akiyama clearly didn't go over the top rope

Manic_Misanthrope
Jul 1, 2010



unimportantguy posted:

I'm not convinced there's actually money in the wrestling game market. The commercial failure of Fire Pro and the dwindling sales of the WWE games kind of point to there just not being enough consumers to market to.

Was Fire Pro World a flop? Thought it did pretty great for having a shoestring budget.

CarlCX
Dec 14, 2003

this is a job for the Punk

Manic_Misanthrope posted:

Was Fire Pro World a flop? Thought it did pretty great for having a shoestring budget.

Supposedly it's got ~50-70k owners on steam and ~80-120k on PS4, so depending on how much their ongoing dev costs are and how much the NJPW DLC cost them to license it probably broke even but it's definitely not going great, and Spike Chunsoft has games like Danganronpa and the Mystery Dungeon games that outsell it and require less upkeep, so it's not a great look.

The Kins
Oct 2, 2004

Sector Effector


I believe there's also been multiple cases after the initial release of them completely replacing the external company hired to do most of the actual development, hence all the DLC delays.

Takuan
May 6, 2007


The Kins posted:

I believe there's also been multiple cases after the initial release of them completely replacing the external company hired to do most of the actual development, hence all the DLC delays.

I think Fire Pro is on it's 3rd dev team at the moment.

FullMetalJackoff
Feb 15, 2004

Waluigi want his fucking Amiibo


List of 'actually great' wrestling games:
- All the AKI engine ones (WCW/WWF/VPW/DJ Vendetta etc)
- Fire Pro Wrestling series
- King of Colosseum series
- WWE HCTP
- Giant Gram 2000

Honourable mentions:
- WWE Day of Reckoning series
- WWE SDvsRAW

Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003

Get running
Start pumping your bunions, I'm coming
I'm the dumbest, who flamethrow your function to Funyons
Flame your crew quicker than Trump fucks his youngest
Now face the flame fuckers your fame and fate's done with


FullMetalJackoff posted:

List of 'actually great' wrestling games:
- All the AKI engine ones (WCW/WWF/VPW/DJ Vendetta etc)
Minor edit: Ultimate MUSCLE was pretty bad.

FullMetalJackoff
Feb 15, 2004

Waluigi want his fucking Amiibo


Did that actually use the same game play engine, though? I was under the impression it was an arcade 1v1 slapfest, like Saturday Night Slam Masters II.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

We All Live In Kawalimus' House


engine is a hosed up word from hell. a company could make a game on an engine and then totally alter their approach to the control scheme and pace of the next game, and add lots of graphical features or even things that change the entire rendering output like cel shading and it would still be the same engine. the tallest man in the world and the smallest person in the world, are both on the same loving engine.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

We All Live In Kawalimus' House


you wanna know something real hosed up. the skeleton of Ready 2 Rumble Revolution on the wii is the same as all those old wrestling games even though it's way different. Don't trust anyone

remusclaw
Dec 8, 2009



They also made WCW vs the World on the Playstation, which was a step in the direction of those great later N64 games, but which really did not play well enough to be worth going back to.

remusclaw fucked around with this message at Feb 5, 2019 around 00:10

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012

plz remember that it was ~ME~ who told you that everything you like is actually really not good, because I knew all along.


FullMetalJackoff posted:

List of 'actually great' wrestling games:
- All the AKI engine ones (WCW/WWF/VPW/DJ Vendetta etc)
- Fire Pro Wrestling series
- King of Colosseum series
- WWE HCTP
- Giant Gram 2000

Honourable mentions:
- WWE Day of Reckoning series
- WWE SDvsRAW

My heart also has a fondness for Crush Hour

remusclaw
Dec 8, 2009



It frustrates me to no end thinking back to the days when the first Smackdown games were competing directly with the AKI series and the biggest talking point was how the graphics were so much more lifelike in Smackdown, look their arms are actually attached to their torso! So much better than that N64 crap. I am pretty solidly convinced it was reactions like that which made the decision for which franchise should carry forward.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008

We All Live In Kawalimus' House


one of the problems the superior games faced was how music and video focused wwf would become. that was horrible for a cartridge-based system before memory was cheap enough to fit whatever you wanted on them. another probably bigger problem was that the playstation destroyed the n64 pretty badly so smackdown immediately sold better by default. so another issue would have been AKI "porting" (re-doing completely from scratch) their stuff to move over to the better selling console. they worked on the playstation but it sucked in comparison because of the technically inferior 3d hardware, lack of experience with developing tools, and weird poo poo like the playstation using fixed-point math and ignoring perspective in texturing unlike a pc or n64 or most things. i DON'T know what i am talking about so please don't respond. if you even ask me one question or say something about what i said is incorrect, i won't be able to refute that at all, and most likely won't read it because of that. Please do not respond.

coconono
Aug 11, 2004

I bet against K-1


I want more games like Def Jam Fight For New York. Great brawler masquerading as a fighting game with characters you recognize.

remusclaw
Dec 8, 2009



Cavauro posted:

one of the problems the superior games faced was how music and video focused wwf would become. that was horrible for a cartridge-based system before memory was cheap enough to fit whatever you wanted on them. another probably bigger problem was that the playstation destroyed the n64 pretty badly so smackdown immediately sold better by default. so another issue would have been AKI "porting" (re-doing completely from scratch) their stuff to move over to the better selling console. they worked on the playstation but it sucked in comparison because of the technically inferior 3d hardware, lack of experience with developing tools, and weird poo poo like the playstation using fixed-point math and ignoring perspective in texturing unlike a pc or n64 or most things. i DON'T know what i am talking about so please don't respond. if you even ask me one question or say something about what i said is incorrect, i won't be able to refute that at all, and most likely won't read it because of that. Please do not respond.

You alright?

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012

plz remember that it was ~ME~ who told you that everything you like is actually really not good, because I knew all along.


MotU posted:

lmbo people responding to cavauro never gets old

KungFu Grip
Jun 18, 2008

HUSS
HUSS
HUSS


I didn't recognize him with out the football player avatar

Astro7x
Aug 4, 2004
Thinks It's All Real

remusclaw posted:

It frustrates me to no end thinking back to the days when the first Smackdown games were competing directly with the AKI series and the biggest talking point was how the graphics were so much more lifelike in Smackdown, look their arms are actually attached to their torso! So much better than that N64 crap. I am pretty solidly convinced it was reactions like that which made the decision for which franchise should carry forward.

An. The old argument of “PlayStation has better graphics” and the counterpoint of how they had cutscenes

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Sandman McMahon
Sep 6, 2011



I have this vague memory of a Gameboy Advance WWE game that was supposed to be like Double Dragon or whatever and the object was to rescue Stephanie McMahon from evil gangsters. Or something. Did I imagine this?

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