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Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Know what's awesome? Murder Mysteries! Pitting your wits against the likes of Agatha Christie and John Dickson Carr to see if you can deduce the culprit before reaching the end of the book. However, these literary puzzles can be extremely difficult - so why should we take them on alone?

The purpose of this thread is to read through classic and modern Whodunits as a group, bouncing theories around and comparing notes to try and catch the killer before the solution is revealed. The previous thread can be found here, and this one will proceed in approximately the same way:

  • The thread agrees on a book to run, and everyone interested acquires the book. We try to stick to books available in ebook format, for convenience.
  • One person, who has already read the book, splits the book into chunks of a few chapters, then tells the thread which chapter to read up to first - usually the chapter when the crime is committed.
  • People discuss the book so far, writing down lists of suspects and evidence, and theories about the crime.
  • When there's been a good chunk of discussion, the leader allows the thread to continue, indicating the next chapter to stop at. People discuss the new chapters.
  • This continues through the book in reasonably meaty chunks, stopping right before the identity of the culprit is revealed. The leader indicates when we've reached this point, and everyone locks in their theory as to who did it.
  • Once all the final theories are in place, everyone reads to the end of the book, and finds out who was right.
  • Once we’re done reflecting, someone volunteers to run the next book.

Interested? Want to get involved? Pick up the book we're reading and join in!

Current Challenge:


The Blind Barber, by John Dickson Carr, is available on Kindle for $9 or Kindle Unlimited for free. Presently, you may read until the end of chapter 10. Spoiler tags are required anything starting from the beginning of chapter 8.

Spoiler Policy

  • :siren:Nothing beyond what the current leader has allowed the thread to read should EVER be discussed.:siren: Spoiling any details of the book's solution in particular is absolutely unforgivable.
  • When discussing information revealed in the most recent section of the book, use spoiler tags for the benefit of people who are still catching up.
  • Once the thread moves on to the next section, you are encouraged to go back and de-spoil your previous posts for more thread readability.
  • Even after the book is finished, any comments pertaining to the book’s solution should remain under spoiler tags.

Books already challenged:
The Body on the Beach, by Simon Brett
The Problem of the Green Capsule, by John Dickson Carr
She Died a Lady, by John Dickson Carr
A Murder is Announced, by Agatha Christie
And Then There Were None, by Agatha Christie
Crooked House, by Agatha Christie
The Moving Finger, by Agatha Christie
Murder is Easy, by Agatha Christie
Pit Prop Syndicate, by Freeman Wills Crofts
The Ponson Case, by Freeman Wills Crofts
Cat of Many Tails, by Ellery Queen
Thus Was Adonis Murdered, by Sarah Caudwell
Murder by the Book, by Rex Stout

Books to challenge in the future:
Green for Danger, by Christianna Brand
He Who Whispers, by John Dickinson Carr
Death and the Dancing Footman, by Ngaio Marsh
Death in a White Tie, by Ngaio Marsh
Overture to Death, by Ngaio Marsh
Clouds of Witness, by Dorothy L. Sayers
And Be A Villain, by Rex Stout
Prisoner's Base, by Rex Stout
The Shortest Way to Hades, by Sarah Caudwell
Stop Press, by Michael Innes


Discussing books to challenge in the future is always encouraged, even in mid-puzzle. I think last thread got a bit carried away with Agatha Christie, so I'm on the lookout for less well-known authors in the genre.

Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Dec 20, 2014

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Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Since the above post will eventually change, posting it here for posterity: The first book of this thread is Cat of Many Tails, by Ellery Queen (which is a pseudonym used by two cousins, Frederic Dannay and Manfred Bennington Lee, who jointly wrote the series). Starting as soon as you pick up the book, you can read up to the end of Chapter 2 and start discussion.

Just in case people have different versions of the book with different chapter numbering: Chapter 2 ends 12% of the way through the book, with the following line: "If you give me three minutes, I'll go with you."

I'll allow plenty of time for this first chunk, since it's a new thread and people need to get the book and whatnot to get started.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Thanks for running this thread and let me know if you need any help with it -- title changed, etc.

You're welcome! I will keep it in mind, provided we get enough players to keep it afloat.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Hmm.

Have people started reading without commenting? Would there be more players with a different book? Is there just not enough interest in the Book Barn to keep this thread alive?

Because I'm not gonna run it with only one person participating.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Alright, three players and two more waiting for the next book is a better spread. Friends, go ahead and read up to the end of Chapter 4!

This next destination point is 29% of the way through the book, and ends with the following memorable line: "I’m going to bed." The little naked man shuffled out.

Posts above this one can be unspoiled.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Well, let's go ahead and advance, then, to the end of Chapter 7. That is 47% of the way through the book, and ends on this line (this is an actual spoiler for once, so only read if you're not sure): There was the familiar Cat, but he had an eighth tail and it was not a question mark.

Everything above this post can be unspoiled.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
It sounds like we've got some people trying to catch up, so I'll hold off on advancing until Fifteen and Hopeford are properly with us.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Roman Hat Mystery was my first Queen book, and it nearly turned me off from the series entirely.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
All right, then, let's advance through to the end of chapter 9! This puts us 66% of the way through the book, and ends with the following line: And Jimmy McKell snarled, "Me, too!"

Everything above this post can be de-spoiled.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Well, then, let's move things along to the end of Chapter 12. That is 92% of the way through the book, and ends with this very spoilerly line: "I mean, Professor Seligmann, that Cazalis did not kill those nine people. Cazalis is not— and never was— the Cat."

Everything above this post can be de-spoilered. This is the :siren:LAST SECTION BEFORE THE SOLUTION:siren:, so everyone lock in your final theories!

Also, since we're getting to the end here, we should start talking about nominations for the next book! There's a list in the OP, but new books are always welcome.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
I'll add a couple books from them to the list - any particular recs from either author?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Yeah, let's go ahead with that. Finish the book!

:siren:Ending spoilers::siren: Ultimately, as much fun as this book is to read, I don't think it was a great fit for the thread - not enough clues and suspects to keep discussion rolling. Still, congratulations!

For our next round, how about Thus Was Adonis Murdered?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
No particular advice, but I did have the pleasure of playing the second How To Host A Murder (The Grapes of Frath) at a convention last year, and it was an insane amount of fun, in much the same way as this thread. I hope you enjoy it!

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Anyway, would you be willing to kick us off for Thus Was Adonis Murdered, Rand?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Caught up! Making a quick possible suspects list based on Chapter 4.

Julia Larwood: The chief suspect, and certainly not the culprit.
Major Bob: Insufferable blowhard who keeps flirting with Julia. Do we know who the victim is gonna be in this one? I'm betting it's this guy.
Eleanor Frostfield: Matron, and acquaintance of the Major through business.
Ned: A beautiful young man.
Kenneth: Ned's broad-shouldered Scottish friend.
Marylou Brendon: A pretty blonde girl.
Sanford Brendon: Marylou's husband.

That's all I picked up from my quick read-through. Did I miss anyone who's actually in Venice?

Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 1, 2014

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Caught up, but I don't have much else to add to the mystery discussion. The book is wonderful to read, though, we should do more by this author.

Worth noting for posterity: Miss Tiverton died of natural causes, and her collection did not contribute to the crime's motivation in any way.

Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Oct 25, 2014

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
I'm caught up, but I don't have access to my notes. Will do a big speculationpost/infodump later.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
It'll probably be a day or two before I'm able to assemble my thoughts, so I don't mind falling behind by a segment.

e: I went ahead and added the next book in this series to our to-read list.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
OKAY, assembling my thoughts from 11-13 before diving into 14-17.

Story reconstructed by Julia and Marylou
  • Got up late because she was busy seducing the hotel staff.
  • When she emerges from her room (around 10 AM?), she sees Major Bob closing the door to his own room. She stays in her room, waiting for him to leave.
  • Checks again 0.5 cigarettes later, Major Bob is closing the door to NED's room. Hides again.
  • Checks again 0.5 cigarettes later, Major Bob is closing the door to his own room again. Hides again.
  • Checks a little later, Major Bob is gone.
  • Finally escapes, flirts with Ned for a bit.
  • Shanghai'd into a shopping trip with Marylou until midday.
  • Returns to her room to fetch a guide book. On the way back out, encounters Ned and Kenneth.
  • Ned acts kind of weird and paranoid, flipping out whens he pats his elbow. (Ned already fears for his life?)
  • He cut himself while shaving, and didn't eat lunch - Ned was clearly nervous since morning.
  • Graziella rounded up Kenneth, Sanford and Marylou at 2PM to go to Verona.
  • Julia successfully seduces Ned.
  • Julia wakes up at 6 PM, and leaves a note for him inside her Finance Act before leaving.
  • Marylou, Sanford and Kenneth return from their trip. Kenneth's key wasn't at the desk, suggesting Ned was still in his room. (The door auto-locks when closed)
  • Kenneth overreacts about Ned's health a bit and insists they get the door open.
  • When they enter, Ned's dead.

Unless there's some serious shenanigans about, Ned died shortly after 6 PM.

The Arguments of the Vice-Quaestor
  • Kenneth, Marylou and Sanford all corroborated each others' absence during the time of the murder.
  • Four chambermaids were settled down from 2:15 onwards, watching the scene.
  • They observed: Julia and Ned entered around 2:20, Julia left around 6:15, Eleanor returned around 7:00, Major Linnaker returned around 7:05. Nobody else entered or exited the area until they were asked to open the room.
  • The notion of somebody entering by window is right out, because it was still light out, and they would have been spotted.
  • Therefore, the only suspects are Bob, Julia and Eleanor.
  • Anyone lurking in the area before 2:15 could not have known that Ned was going to be going back, so their purpose could not have been murder.

So, possibilities. The evidence is pretty drat strong that it's one of those three, which is why I can't help but try to think of ways it could have been someone else.

The last point from the VQ is the most dubious one - it seems doubtful, but someone could have already been in the area before the guardian chambermaids arrived.

Questions
  • The Major's actions appear to be: Leave room, enter Ned's room for 5 minutes, leave and return to his own room. What was he doing in Ned's room? The door auto-locks, too - does he have Ned's key?
  • Why might somebody have already been around the rooms before 2:15? Why would they then kill Ned, who they couldn't have known was going to be there?
  • If Ned feared for his life, why did he suddenly decide to get it on with Julia, then pass out for a few hours?
  • Whose movements aren't known during the crime?

On the third question, as well as I can sort it out:
  • Julia: Was with Ned up until right before the crime, then left at 6:15. Suspicious, but almost certainly not the culprit.
  • Eleanor: Entered at 7:00. Do we know what she was up to all day?
  • Bob: Entered at 7:05. Do we know what he was up to all day? What's his relation to Eleanor?
  • Kenneth: Was out in Verone until the body was found.
  • Marylou: Was out in Verone until the body was found.
  • Sanford: Was out in Verone until the body was found.
  • Graziella: Was out in Verone until the body was found.
  • Bruce: I have this name in my notes but I can't remember who it is at all. Who's Bruce, and what has he been up to?
  • Ned: Dead.

There's a lot going on here, and it's not all in place yet. Time to dive into the final segment.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Also, does anyone want to volunteer to run the next round? I'll start reading one of the Simon Brett books soon, so I can run the round after that. We've got 13 books lined up in the OP.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
I don't buy the suicide theory. No weapon was found at the scene. Did Ned stab himself in the heart, throw the knife out the window, then lie down to die comfortably? Even if it's possible, why would he do all that?

Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Oct 27, 2014

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Okay, let's consider the contradiction. I'm not good with motives, so I'm focusing on the "impossible" crime aspect.

  • Julia goes to bed with Ned around 2.
  • Julia wakes up next to Ned around 6.
  • Autopsy reports that Ned died around 3.

Possible explanations:

Ned died while Julia was sleeping and she didn't notice.
This has a number of problems. Julia sleeping through Ned's murder? Julia not noticing that he was dead? If he had been poisoned or something that would be one thing, but he was stabbed in the heart. That would be a bloody affair, and I don't buy that she wouldn't have noticed, no matter how dim she might be.

The person next to Julia when she woke up was not Ned.
Does anyone else look like Ned in this story? I can't get a decent explanation out of this one.

Ned did not die at 3 PM.
The autopsy being wrong would be unfair, especially since the examiner wasn't a named suspect. Tossing this one out.

Julia didn't wake up at 6.
I can't get a way to make this one work, either. Not well enough to cover a three-hour time gap.

Julia lied in her letter.
There hasn't been any evidence of this, and if she's not the killer, then why would she?

Ned died via some subtle method at 3 PM, and then was stabbed after 6 PM.
These are getting more ridiculous as I go.

poo poo, I can't come up with any plausible explanation. This is one slick murderer.

Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Oct 27, 2014

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
I like the theory that Julia was in the wrong room, actually - did she ever see the body? Do we know for sure it's the same person?

I only have about half a theory here, but I do remember that Marylou is the one who found the body. This feels like a decently plausible lead.

Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Oct 27, 2014

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Do you think it's OK to stop spoiling anything at this point? We're kind of into final discussion mode.

Here's another inconsistency: The state of Ned's body.

According to Julia: "Ned, lying beside me, still looked so peacefully asleep that tender-heartedness prevented me from waking him."
According to Marylou: "I kind of remember thinking, 'he doesn't look too comfortable lying that way, I don't know how he can breathe with his face in the pillow like that'. And then I saw the blood."

At this point, I think we can safely say that Julia didn't awaken next to a corpse and confuse it for a sleeping person. This is the heart of what we must solve: The victim died before 3, but the person sleeping next to Julia was alive at 6. By this, I say we have to pursue the theory that they were not the same person.

That's where it gets tough, though:

Julia was head over heels for Ned, and was basically staring at his face for the entire book, both before the incident and after the incident.
Julia was around Ned and Kenneth at the same time, so it's impossible that Julia and Kenneth had totally separate ideas about who Ned is.
Kenneth was present when the body was found, and didn't say anything about it not being Ned. Marylou was there as well, and she didn't notice anything odd, either.
Nobody in the story was described as looking anything like Ned.

So how could they be different people? What the hell is going on here?

Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Oct 27, 2014

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
poo poo. Are we out of theories?

If it comes down to it, I'll make this my fallback half-theory:

  • Julia saw "Ned" alive at 6 PM, Kenneth and Marylou saw "Ned" dead shortly after.
  • The Ned that Kenneth and Marylou saw died three hours before Julia saw him alive.
  • Therefore, Julia's Ned and Kenneth's Ned are somehow different people.
  • Kenneth interacted with the same Julia that she slept with, shortly before, so he saw Julia's Ned.
  • Kenneth interacted with the Ned who the autopsy said was already dead when Julia's Ned was alive.
  • Kenneth interacted with both Neds, and also is the only one who knew Ned before all of this.
  • It doesn't make any sense for Kenneth to not notice anything strange going on here.
  • Therefore, Kenneth is the most suspicious.
  • Therefore, Kenneth is the killer.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
I guess it doesn't look like any better theories are coming forward.

Kenneth's my vote. Should we see how badly we did?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
This was one of the best books we've hit in the history of the thread.

My only problem with the final explanation, admittedly my own fault rather than Caudwell's, was that I have no recollection of who the hell Richard Triverton is.

So! What's next, thread?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Well, the only book on the list I've read is Murder on the Orient Express. If we don't want to dive into that experience, we'll need a different host, or I'll need to quickly read one of the Simon Brett books.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Well, no other volunteers are coming forward, so feel free to lead us for round three as well! I'll read another book to run after this one.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Well this is getting interesting fast.

Putting that list of names here for posterity:

Sinclair Meade
Sinclair Sampson
Barry Bowen
David Yerkes
Ernest Vinson
Dorian Vick
Baird Archer
Oscar Shiff
Oscar Cody
Lawrence McCue
Mark McCue
Mark Flick
Mack Flick
Louis Gill
Lewis Gill

Two Sinclairs, two Oscars, two Marks, two Flicks, two Gills. There's definitely a pattern to the names, but what is it?

Trying to remember the exact sequence of events, but I read the first three chapters a couple days ago. Baird Archer's manuscript was written up last July, shortly before the second(?) victim showed up. None of the people named in the list seem to exist - aliases, or code words. Then, Wolfe's investigation begins, and Rachel gets pushed out a window (or jumps out). Why just then? Why didn't the killer get her during the intervening months?

We need to see the manuscript. There's the package weight discrepancy - do we know for sure that there was a novel manuscript in there at all?

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Nothing new to add, either. Fun reading, but if there were any killer clues, they went over my head.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
New suspects! Let's list them!

James Corrigan: Counselor-at-law. Led a lot of the discussion in Wolfe's office. Lost money over the disbarment incident, he claims. Only stuck around due to loyalty.
Emmett Phelps: Counselor-at-law. Firm encyclopedia. Always right.
Louis Kustin: Counselor-at-law. Go-to trial man, tackled a lot of cases. Replaced O'Malley after his disbarment.
Frederick Briggs: Counselor-at-law. Very old, very resentful.
Conroy O'Malley: Bitter ex-partner. Suggested the meeting with Wolfe. Had been out of town for a week, and didn't know about Baird Archer (supposedly). Disbarred on a split jurry with insufficient evidence for a felony conviction, after bribing a juror. Claims it was the juror's wife that informed the court.
Charlotte Adams: Corrigan's secretary.
Sue Dondero: Phelps's secretary.
Eleanor Gruber: Kustin's secretary.

None of them (secretaries excluded) ever wrote fiction.
None of them (secretaries excluded) had any hint that Dykes wrote fiction.
All of them got a bigger share thanks to the disbarment, but the partnership is in jeopardy.


Good information, still don't have enough to start thinking of a culprit yet.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
I read through sixteen! I just kept putting off posting because I wanted to go through it again to gather thoughts.

So far I don't have any idea who did it, or really anything else. Here's hoping the last chunk opens some eyes.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
If that wasn't the solution right there, then I have to admit, I'm stumped. If there's an alternate solution hidden in all that, I might need to read it a few more times to puzzle it out.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
All right, let's take a look.

Corrigan in CA:
-Hears that a literary agent wants to sell PNYT to Hollywood, and that the owner of the manuscript wants his advice
-Calls Potter, asks if she's seen or read the script, and tells her not to sign anything until he arrives
-Asks Finch why he believes the book to be connected to Dykes
-Demands to see the manuscript, said it was libelous
-When refused, attacks Finch
-Goes to Mrs. Potter, surprised to see Finch there
-Demands to speak to her alone, is refused again, leaves
-Tries to sneak into Finch's hotel room, finds Goodwin there, leaves
-Goes straight to the airport, books the first flight to New York
-Makes a call from a phone booth

Corrigan in the suicide note:
-PNYT was a book about the crimes of his law firm
-Found the manuscript at Dykes's desk
-Confronted Dykes, who said he hadn't told anyone
-Dykes gave him the manuscript and he destroyed it
-Writes PS 146-3 on the corner of Dykes's letter of resignation
-Dykes tried to blackmail him, so he killed him
-Finds out about Rachel and Joan, killed them too
-Learns about the manuscript, insisted that he go personally to CA
-Tries to sneak into Finch's hotel room, finds Goodwin there, leaves
-Takes first plane back to NY
-Phones partners, they insist on going to Wolfe directly

At first glance, it looks like it lines up pretty well. The suicide note seems to be unclear as to whether the phone call was before or after the plane trip, but I don't see how it makes a difference.

Anyone else spot something?


e: I was reading Not Dead, Only Resting, but I honestly don't care for it very much. If nobody else has any ideas, I'll offer to run Murder on the Orient Express for our next round.

Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Dec 3, 2014

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Well, I guess we're not doing that one.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Even if it wasn't generally spoiled, I wouldn't let us run Roger Ackroyd. What a bullshit book.

I'll read ahead tomorrow. Maybe I can still find something to run next.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Rand ran the last two rounds, so I'd like to give him a chance to join in if possible.

Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
Well, I guess we lose. I feel like a lot of new clues got uncovered during the conclusion, but I'm not sure if it was still possible to pin it on a specific person.

I've got a good lead on a new book to run, just give me some time to blaze through it.

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Quinn2win
Nov 9, 2011

Foolish child of man...
After reading all this,
do you still not understand?
ALL RIGHT, if nobody has any objections, I'm calling this one for our next round:



The Blind Barber, by John Dickson Carr, is available on Kindle for $9 or Kindle Unlimited for free (there's a 30-day trial!). It's also loving funny and I'll vouch for it as a 100% solvable whodunnit.

Once you have the book, go ahead and read up to the end of Chapter 4!

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