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Yes it is most unfortunate that that one person changed their vote to make us walk into a nuke. Did Nothing Wrong? By our standards? Holy poo poo no she's a ruthless monster responsbile for a a shitload of unnecessary death. By 40K? Standards? Nah, not really (in my opinion). We're mostly seeing her from the views of 1)Ship non-conformists who miss the old days and 2) Very powerful people used to comfortable and easy positions that people like Ohone tend to make very, very nervous. If Ohone was as bad as the NPCs think she is she would have Exterminatused Agatha's World by Inquisitorial fiat the second we received that message from the future. Or actually done some more purges after whacking Amacita. Edit: I think some of the problem here is that Ohone's personality and how she feels about stuff aren't really decided in thread or made clear by Lowell when we vote for stuff. So there's some mismatch between what kind of person the author interprets Ohone, how each of us see her, and how NPCs in the story see her. paragon1 fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Nov 23, 2015 |
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Nov 23, 2015 03:04
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paragon1 posted:It wasn't some Stalineqse "purge this general because he's too good and popular with the men" bullshit no matter how much you want to spin it that way. Well, except for the part where Lowell said 'Ohone is Literally Stalin until the thread figures their poo poo out/remembers their social skills/starts playing smarter/insanity reduction happens on the player's part as well as stats.' Here's the scene in question. Part 1 Part 2 Lets examine the actors actions: Show up for meeting walk into room Be greeted Say nothing Shoot someone. Miss. Step outside. Execution. Does not matter how its justified afterwards. You have to think of what kind of impression it made. Ohone Shot First. This kind of poo poo, a boss that walks into a room and just blows people away is the kind of thing that cripples morale, drives talent away, and wrecks a business. Those aren't fluffy 'oh we can treat people as things and replace them all ' tier problems, that's the sound of the ships stats and crew rating level tanking into the ground. It has actual mechanical and story effects you should care about. Its the kind of thing that could/should directly ding Infamy and Profit Factor as well, since you lose those things in the same manner you gain them. "Hey boss, show up for an important meeting" -> immediate murder -> "welp we're not having important meetings any more and not telling our boss what's going on." I dont care about the horse being dead. I care about reversing the Literal Stalin attitude which led to and resulted from the situation instead. Seriously take a clue from all the reactions to it afterwards - and I mean the other characters, not the thread, because, well Rahul just stole the words out of my mouth. Put it better than i would have while being more concise about it. reignonyourparade posted:Going to repeat my suggestion of ching shih as official voice of "how this would have been handled back when things didn't suck" on the council, for a tripple bonus of have someone speaking against us that we aren't purging, maybe soothing ching shih's desire to take back over a bit (since even before we unleashed Hera the iron hands would've backed her and I'm pretty sure they could singlehandedly install her) and also demonstrating to the rest that while we're too hard, she's probably a bit too soft so if she DOES desire to revolt she'll have fewer backers. Tomn posted:And people wonder why we have image problems. So much these too. Totally promote the boss and take lessons from her. A rogue trader without any sense of style or image is just... pathetic. It makes for a much less interesting stage for space adventures than it could be. What's that thought for the day? Life is the emperor's currency, spend it well? Anyone can murderhobo. Its leveraging the people you have into the results you want that's hard. The proper response to golgotha isn't "Kill Everyone And Replace Them", its "Oh gently caress, I can't BUY any more crew because demand for shiphands just spiked massively due to golgotha. Anyone we're going to get is gonna be so green or so expensive and we want neither of those."
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Nov 23, 2015 03:23
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Blah blah amacita did nothing wrong *elsewhere in the imperium* Commissar shoots trooper for mouthing off to him
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Nov 23, 2015 03:31
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And yet, you hardly see(or see much less) a commissar shooting generals, ranking officers, or people that would be missed enough to have political blowback on their station. Commissars are in charge of discipline, not just executions. If anything, your example is weaker because of it - a commissar knows when pulling the trigger ISN'T appropriate, too.
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Nov 23, 2015 03:38
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B.B. Rodriguez posted:FOR THE LOVE OF THE EMPEROR, WE DID NOT KILL HER FOR BEING USEFUL! SHE WAS KILLED FOR SOMETHING SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED FOR ON LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE SHIP, PLANET, PDF, ETC IN THE IMPERIUM! The Imperium is a cartoonishly over-the-top dysfunctional fascist hellscape in which all is misery and woe and in which few have any real love or even trust for their leaders and part of the reason for this is that said leaders execute people on a regular basis for what we would consider minor reasons. The fact that it happens elsewhere doesn't seem to make anyone LIKE it, in-setting. Just fear it - as they fear us. But leaving that aside, you're right, honestly. Amacita wasn't killed because she was too competent - not directly*. If we're all going to be very honest about ourselves, Amacita was killed because the thread worked itself up into a shark-chum frenzy about her before we even saw her again and was prepared to space her for her chaos affiliations, dangerous near-heresies, possible coup, etc. etc. without her having said so much as boo. The will to kill her came far ahead of any concrete evidence of her wrongdoings, and even if she'd done nothing but welcome us warmly to the ship, I wouldn't have bet a nickel on her survival. Odds are we'd have screamed that she was so friendly it MUST have been a cover for a plot, or something of the sort. If it had been Limosa who'd greeted us thus, and said such things to us instead of Amacita, are we so certain that we'd have gone immediately to the Baleful Eye? *That being said, though, her taking on most of the Seneschal roles that she did was a factor feeding into our paranoia, so it's not like it didn't contribute at all. paragon1 posted:Oh, so killing random people is totally cool if you have good enough reasons? Fine, we had great reasons and the people we ordered dead weren't even random, and our reign wasn't even 6 months old by the time the Magos war rolled around. Negligence being directly responsible for a daemon invasion? That really seems a better reason than back-talk? But leave that aside - if you were worried about a mutiny, how many of you genuinely felt that Amacita was a threat to Ohone's power? By all means, lay out the logical groundwork for her master plan. Explain to me the brilliance and intricacy of a plot for power in which she chewed out her nominal leader in private and then waited to be killed. Were we expecting assassins to pop out of the woodwork? Daemons to erupt from her butt? Killing her to discover that we were dealing with an illusion all along and that the real Amacita was a sorcerer who'd already mind-controlled half the ship? Had she fatally misjudged us, expecting us to meekly allow her to live and then develop and launch her coup at her leisure? What on earth were we afraid of?
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Nov 23, 2015 03:40
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Tomn posted:What on earth were we afraid of? Arkanomen posting more. 
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Nov 23, 2015 03:46
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Or keep going until we don't need to kill anymore. We have two AIs literally hurling supernovas at each other. How many lives is that killing. How many have died from our lie about the STC. All the hand wringing about "our humanity" is a joke. e: ^^Not everyone has the stones can press the big red button and not cry over purged dregs. And for the record I did want to exterminate Agathas world as soon as we heard rumors of demons. Arkanomen fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Nov 23, 2015 |
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Nov 23, 2015 03:57
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I voted to kill Amacita before I voted against it. I thought her final frustrated plea sounded really understandable. IIRC my rationale was that voters were convinced enough that she was a problem that she she was going to be a problem, and killing her would get that over with. I was half right.  I think voters are closely split-ish on a more compassionate Ohone vs. full-on dictator idea so we go back to big decisions like Amacita. For homework, everyone should go grab their favorite security vs liberty arguments from the modern political landscape and see which is more fun to roleplay in a far-future space CYOA where the protagonist apparently has the possibility of reverse the slow decline of the human race. But only if they Make The Right Decision!
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Nov 23, 2015 03:59
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page 25: you had just met the gang leaders in the Deeps page 50: quint and tanya had just been introduced page 75: meeting kozilek for the first time page 100: knitting circle with sincera page 125: the olympus page 150: amacita’s wedding planning page 175: talking to dwarf about factions page 200: talking with eldar page 225: fusion bomb incident page 250: saving limosa page 275: deathskull orks page 300: tugboat page 325: talking with cryonic lady page 350: the manor on agatha’s world page 375: meeting the motherfucking emperor page 400: titan. 16,000 posts, we’re a real thread! page 425: mars, space grandpa page 450: luna and amacita page 475: pilgrimage and shrine-cities I think the big thing is, there are maybe two people who could tells us to gently caress off and make it stick. Back on page 25, 75, we were still hella outclassed. Had to use diplomacy with the gangs, had to be very very careful with Kozilek. Had to get information and feeling overwhelmed on p175 and p200. We started purging on p225, and after that we've just been increasing our power (becoming a magos, inquisitor, lord sire, having athena). And.. we really are focused on power for it's own sake. Athena and Hera have a strict internal code of ethics - as far as I can tell, we have power to protect and expand our power. So when we do character development with npcs, its a very simple 'are they useful? are they dangerous to my position?' chart we use. I think Fabiyan is our prosthetic conscience, and I think Ohone feels that way too. She views the ship as a Magos would, but she still doesn't want to disappoint him. And, well, look at how the thread perspective has changed over time. quote:Ohone is someone who is constantly being thrown into situations she isn't ready for and just trying to do the best she can. She cares about humanity in the abstract, broad sense and really just sees that everything is broken, barely working, and things are getting worse. Ancient irreplaceable machines are lost, corrupted, or broken on a regular basis and barely anything new is being developed by Mechanicus. The future is watching Sisyphus push a boulder up a hill, only over time Sisyphus keeps getting more and more tired, getting further and further from accomplishing his task. Athena presents her with an answer to her problems, with intact STC, new tech, and extensive knowledge. Humanity might finally be able to return to the golden age of technology and even the God Emperor might be restored. This is a game changer. The worship popped up over the course of several votes, but can be justified as Ohone previously worshiping the machine aspect of the Omnisiah preferentially and conflating the Omnisiah with Athena in a religious moment of discovery, the way one might worship a saint as an aspect of the Emperor. quote:The more I think about Ohone's motivations and actions the more I see her as a true mechanicus. Everything in life is a single machine, Ohone's machine. People are separated by utility. Krieg are the basic cogs, useful, effective, replaceable. The death cult is about sacrificing the self for the utility of the machine. "State your function", "There is only duty" etc. The replaceable parts were honed and upgraded to even better replaceable parts. quote:Goddamn. The galaxy is starting to torch up in flames and we take the time to murder the terror of Mars because we wanted a new hood ornament.
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Nov 23, 2015 04:03
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Arkanomen posted:Or keep going until we don't need to kill anymore. We have two AIs literally hurling supernovas at each other. How many lives is that killing. Hey. You majorly missed the point and also just how insanely precise those AI's operate. Rules of Engagement Yellow. Anyone can toss a supernova. These AI are going out of their way to throw curveballs around people. The answer to your question is zero. Because minds are just good enough to deploy strategic weapons around civilians. Bad example. Really, I think Tomn hit it spot on with the shark frenzy comment. issues on the Meta level with the bus drivers.
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Nov 23, 2015 04:14
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Day 22 Current: 36,142 Total Goal: 36,666 Shrine City 6 The Shrine-City of Vulkan was … an unpleasant place. It was extremely populated, far more so than the city of Ferrus, and it was far more intermingled. People seemed to have abandoned station and deference entirely, instead having Governors work side-by-side with serfs with Space Marines. On a certain visceral level, it made your skin crawl. Dregs could always be subverted, made ready to assassinate you or summon daemons. They needed to kept in their place. Ideally in a death cult. The city was devoted to crafting, which you did like, but it was far more focused on ‘teaching’, as opposed to just having Magi dictate orders and plans. It was an odd thing, to think you could just sit someone down and talk at them for a while to make them understand. Better to just order them to assist in your tasks, and if they learned, good, and if they didn’t, well, there were more where they came from. Sometimes you honestly wondered what Vulkan was thinking. And so much of the city was devoted to the serfs! Megatons of good food, not the verdigris slurries, were delivered and handed out with no charge. It was equal to what you served the Grey Cloaks! And these people were just … showing up! You could see reasons for giving out water, and offering massive hygiene facilities - the Great Enemy loved disease - but really? High quality food? They wouldn’t even appreciate it. At least Vulkan had the right approach to xeno. He loathed the things, and destroyed entire raiding groups of Dark Eldar as a child. That was certainly something to be applauded and emulated, and you spent a fair bit of time watching the reenactments. The child-serfs were actually quite enthusiastic at thwacking each other with hammers.
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Nov 23, 2015 04:20
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quote:The child-serfs were actually quite enthusiastic at thwacking each other with hammers. Who let them out of the salt mines?
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Nov 23, 2015 04:26
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Tomn posted:Negligence being directly responsible for a daemon invasion? That really seems a better reason than back-talk? Wrong . Cruentus missed that one was already there. He was in no way responsible for it, the invasion was well under way by the time he was assigned to investigate. It was a cult of Dregs supported by OH LOOK AMACITA that summoned Abraxus and nearly got the ship to fall to Chaos. Do you seriously fail to grasp the importance of public discipline that hard? You punish the little things so people don't think they can slack on the big stuff. Publicly snubbing Ohone like Amacita did goes way, waaay beyond little stuff. Like, what do you think would have happened if we'd tried that poo poo with the Dimuzio when we were a lowly troubleshooter? We'd get a bolter shot to the head for being just that incredibly stupid.
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Nov 23, 2015 04:46
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Tomn posted:But leave that aside - if you were worried about a mutiny, how many of you genuinely felt that Amacita was a threat to Ohone's power? By all means, lay out the logical groundwork for her master plan. I genuinely thought Amacita was a threat to Ohone's power... In that she was the path through which the next chaos cult or power hungry sadist would try to get in. But at that point we could hardly put her under house arrest without risking ANOTHER civil war. Really the lesson to be learned is "don't make murder the most reasonable way to remove you from power."
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Nov 23, 2015 04:46
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TheParadigm posted:Well, except for the part where Lowell said 'Ohone is Literally Stalin until the thread figures their poo poo out/remembers their social skills/starts playing smarter/insanity reduction happens on the player's part as well as stats.' Yeah, I think Lowell is mistaken on that front too. You are allowed to disagree with the GM in these things. That said, you have a good point on how these things are perceived being what matters. I don't think killing Amacita was the wrong move but it almost certainly wasn't the best move.
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Nov 23, 2015 04:50
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LowellDND posted:Day 22 Not what I was expecting, but very, very on point. At every juncture, Ohone has only ever put in the bare minimum effort to keep her underlings running, and nothing more. It just highlights that, as much as Ohone loves Fabian, she never really got his genius. She never understood why someone would put a party hat on a Kreiger. But I still think there's hope. Even if she doesn't understand, possibly can't understand, I think there's a part of her that wants to understand. And that's something.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:00
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poor life choice posted:I think voters are closely split-ish on a more compassionate Ohone vs. full-on dictator idea so we go back to big decisions like Amacita. For homework, everyone should go grab their favorite security vs liberty arguments from the modern political landscape and see which is more fun to roleplay in a far-future space CYOA where the protagonist apparently has the possibility of reverse the slow decline of the human race. But only if they Make The Right Decision! You make some good points, and I think its worth exploring. Also, you have some respect for like, actually changing your mind and listening. LowellDND posted:And, well, look at how the thread perspective has changed over time. They're not the same, and clearly grew through the story but diverged at some point. And eventually it clashed, and just happened to be over killing a really important person. I know Lowell had a 'do i really want to write this branch' moment, and chose not to put the foot down and go throw a bunch of notes away because that's what we wanted. I'd say its more of an internal-influences lens vs an external-influence lens than one about political views/attitudes. I like lowell's version. She's self-aware and has nuance. For example, I would have loved to see her grappling with the evidence of her best friend being a maybe-traitor, the same scenario, but making moves like an inquisitor and magos, not a trigger happy goon. Worse, I feel like lowell has been just ... giving in and agreeing with it instead of re-evaluating, exploring how to evolve and fit in new plot around it. Like drat, stop throwing words like literally stalin, prosthetic consciousness, and monster around and... think about what you've got to work with other than that. I feel like Ohone's been dumbed down. You have so much more depth to draw upon from all the various roles, history, hats worn and places she came from that are being tossed by the wayside for those 3 hats. we just spent seven years on titan, and instead of building any memorable moments or experiences that have lessons learned or take-away value, ohone's Defining Moment of the arc is.... Amacita. Both IC and OOC. Y'all can do better.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:13
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TheParadigm posted:Also, you have some respect for like, actually changing your mind and listening. Only until I figure out a way to purge all the voters in the purging vote bloc. Oh god. *looks at hands in horror*
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Nov 23, 2015 05:20
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paragon1 posted:Wrong . Cruentus missed that one was already there. He was in no way responsible for it, the invasion was well under way by the time he was assigned to investigate. It was a cult of Dregs supported by OH LOOK AMACITA that summoned Abraxus and nearly got the ship to fall to Chaos. Are you forgetting exactly how Cruentus went down? DiMuzio ordered him to hunt down the rumors of a possible Chaos cult. He beat up some random bunch of morons instead and claimed he solved the problem, allowing the real cult to fester. Failing to investigate real problems before they get worse is kind of a big deal, especially when you not only failed to find the cult but didn't even make an attempt to look for it - after having been given direct orders by the Lord-Sire. As for your interpretation of "public discipline," I'm reminded of a joke from Legalist China: "What's the punishment for rebellion?" "Death." "What's the punishment for being late?" "Death." "Well, guess what? We're LATE!" As for what DiMuzio would have done? That depends on whether you're talking about the public snub or the private rant. The private rant I couldn't say, because there's too many factors specific to the circumstances tied into that. The public snub? I honestly think DiMuzio would have gone for a public (and probably physical) warning instead, because he was secure enough in his power not to view every little thing as the imminent downfall of his rule to be stopped by all means necessary and canny enough to realize that talent is worth making an effort to cultivate and maintain instead of cutting it down the moment it does something displeasing. That's what he did in fact do with us, after all, instead of demanding nothing but obedience. Which is the whole problem with the "We HAD to do it to assert our authority!" argument. DiMuzio had many tools in his toolbox for asserting his authority and used all of them as needed depending on the situation. How many tools does Ohone have beyond purging? And did the situation call for nothing BUT purging?
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Nov 23, 2015 05:20
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TheParadigm posted:I feel like Ohone's been dumbed down. We're talking about this chat also, but I think its the nature of the beast - she has a bigger hammer in most any situaiton, so she doesnt need to be subtle or think things through. She's not in situations where she has to be sneaky anymore, and she doesnt really have a people-focused set of ethics. So its violence all the way down. edit: To expand on the above post, our toolbox has become almost entirely sledgehammers. They work in a lot of situations, but they also break a lot of things.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:21
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LowellDND posted:I think the big thing is, there are maybe two people who could tells us to gently caress off and make it stick. LowellDND posted:We're talking about this chat also, but I think its the nature of the beast - she has a bigger hammer in most any situaiton, so she doesnt need to be subtle or think things through. She's not in situations where she has to be sneaky anymore, and she doesnt really have a people-focused set of ethics. So its violence all the way down. I actually began writing a thing about this a while back, but dropped it halfway through. Short version: Power essentially consists of the ability to make your will manifest. The more power you have, the more you can shape the world to suit your will. But the more you shape the world to suit your will, the more comfortable you become with that world, and the less comfortable you become with a world that exists outside of your will, because what you want is the best thing that can happen and anything that isn't the best thing is by definition worse. So the more power you get, the more you want to build and defend your vision of what the world should be, and you can only do this by getting more power and struggling to maintain the power you have, and the more power you get the more you want to defend your world, and so on ad infinitum until what you actually wanted the world to become has gotten lost under the need to secure your power. Which will ultimately happen because nobody actually has enough power to truly and wholly impose their will upon the world, and the world will constantly fight to regain its equilibrium point. And that, in a nutshell, is why and how power corrupts.
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Nov 23, 2015 05:36
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So what you're saying is we need more power?
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Nov 23, 2015 06:09
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Outrail posted:So what you're saying is we need more power? “Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”
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Nov 23, 2015 06:13
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Tomn posted:Are you forgetting exactly how Cruentus went down? DiMuzio ordered him to hunt down the rumors of a possible Chaos cult. He beat up some random bunch of morons instead and claimed he solved the problem, allowing the real cult to fester. Failing to investigate real problems before they get worse is kind of a big deal, especially when you not only failed to find the cult but didn't even make an attempt to look for it - after having been given direct orders by the Lord-Sire. Actually, wrong again. Cruentus was sent to track down a serial killer, killed some random guy, said he was guilty and none of the dregs disagreed. Yes it is a big deal, but it just goes to prove my point. If simply doing your job poorly is enough to get you killed and have no one object to it, then how the gently caress is straight up insubordination going to result in anything less? If it hadn't been Amacita you might get out alive, but on top of everything else she was a former rival to power and married to one of our worst enemies ever.
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Nov 23, 2015 06:14
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paragon1 posted:Yeah, I think Lowell is mistaken on that front too. You are allowed to disagree with the GM in these things. That said, you have a good point on how these things are perceived being what matters. I don't think killing Amacita was the wrong move but it almost certainly wasn't the best move. No, uh, no that really wasn't a mistake, nor was it hyperbole. LowellDND posted:Im going to write her as literally Stalin until the thread changes its mind I'd just like for the original ohone to be in the driver's seat when that happens, or even something interesting like splitting the difference between rear end in a top hat stalin goon ohone and lowell ohone instead of a full switch being thrown either way. Like I said, I don't really care that the horse is dead, more that the implications arising from the murder of it being the real problem that needs addressing. Figuring out how to bury the body best, really.
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Nov 23, 2015 06:58
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paragon1 posted:If simply doing your job poorly is enough to get you killed and have no one object to it, then how the gently caress is straight up insubordination going to result in anything less? . Because those players were aware of the stakes involved. Remeber the Omega Alert and how it was a big loving deal? that's because the stakes are potentailly 'the entire ship and everyone on it gets damned'. Cruentus got slapped because that's the one fuckup everyone agrees is bad for business, even across rivalries within the family. Even in the worst nightmare scenario where Amacita was a cultist... you still don't kill her, because you want to use her to weed out the rest of her cult instead of snipping off the face while the body continues growing. Shooting before interrogation was still a wrong choice in either scenario. Its also a very bad habit for an Inquisitor to have.
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Nov 23, 2015 07:07
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paragon1 posted:Actually, wrong again. Cruentus was sent to track down a serial killer, killed some random guy, said he was guilty and none of the dregs disagreed. Yes it is a big deal, but it just goes to prove my point. If simply doing your job poorly is enough to get you killed and have no one object to it, then how the gently caress is straight up insubordination going to result in anything less? If it hadn't been Amacita you might get out alive, but on top of everything else she was a former rival to power and married to one of our worst enemies ever. Seriously? Do you really want to just completely ignore the whole Chaos involvement dealie? Are you officially going to go to bat as saying that if the serial killings had been the result of a random non-Chaos crazy killer, DiMuzio would have dealt with Cruentus in exactly the same way? Is that the hill you want to die on?
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Nov 23, 2015 07:09
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Tomn posted:Seriously? Do you really want to just completely ignore the whole Chaos involvement dealie? Are you officially going to go to bat as saying that if the serial killings had been the result of a random non-Chaos crazy killer, DiMuzio would have dealt with Cruentus in exactly the same way? Is that the hill you want to die on? quote:Not that you’d ever admit to such a thing. Its the unspoken ambition of every Family member - everyone wants to be the Rogue Trader, Family routinely kill and die for it, but its rude to say it aloud. Hence the dynastic games you are about to enter. It’s time to size up the opposition, and see how they handled their tasks. Scholar Limosa, sanctioned psyker, and current contender for the heir. Amacita the Scribe, a harmless paper shuffler of no interest or standing. And Investigator Cruentus, often called the Widowmaker.
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Nov 23, 2015 07:17
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Ha, I never caught onto "I don't want a riot over some murder-cult we could have stopped early" being EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED before now.
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Nov 23, 2015 07:29
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Tomn posted:Seriously? Do you really want to just completely ignore the whole Chaos involvement dealie? Are you officially going to go to bat as saying that if the serial killings had been the result of a random non-Chaos crazy killer, DiMuzio would have dealt with Cruentus in exactly the same way? Is that the hill you want to die on? No, that's not what I'm saying at all. My argument has been that ,and I don't know how to emphasize this anymore than I already have, THAT IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH IT HAPPENED Cruentus' punishment made perfect sense, despite it being, at its core, simple laziness, which is not something you usually get killed for. Therefore, it makes no sense to me to go on and act like, IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH IT HAPPENED Amacita's technically more serious offense of being insubordinate would not also cop her an instant death penalty in this society under just about any leader in the Imperium. Ohone is not adhering to some ridiculous extreme in this respect that would be perceived especially negatively. TheParadigm posted:Because those players were aware of the stakes involved. Remeber the Omega Alert and how it was a big loving deal? that's because the stakes are potentailly 'the entire ship and everyone on it gets damned'. Cruentus got slapped because that's the one fuckup everyone agrees is bad for business, even across rivalries within the family. No one except maybe Arkanomen seriously thought she was actually a cultist, I'm pretty sure. The whole affair was entirely a Lord-Sire hat related thing. TheParadigm posted:No, uh, no that really wasn't a mistake, nor was it hyperbole. Again, ~I disagree with that reading on the character~ Now I will admit that Death of the Author is a terribly awkward thing to do when the good man is still standing there talking and all, but I really must insist.
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Nov 23, 2015 07:32
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Amacita was a cultist. She worshiped the Chaos God of being a worthless fuckup. Help the dregs, let a cult in the window. Save a dashing rogue, he turns her into a meth addict. Run the ship in the captains absence, piss on the captains boots when she returns. We should really purge anyone who questions our execution of her because they clearly are tainted with the same near-sightedness as Amacita did. It's not too late to make the ship Kreigers, servitors and AI drones. We can become a mind in our own right and stand a chance when Athena and Hera and whoever else is at that level decides we need to be purged. Doom, I say, DOOM!
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Nov 23, 2015 07:46
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paragon1 posted:No, that's not what I'm saying at all. My argument has been that ,and I don't know how to emphasize this anymore than I already have, THAT IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH IT HAPPENED Cruentus' punishment made perfect sense, despite it being, at its core, simple laziness, which is not something you usually get killed for. Therefore, it makes no sense to me to go on and act like, IN THE CONTEXT IN WHICH IT HAPPENED Amacita's technically more serious offense of being insubordinate would not also cop her an instant death penalty in this society under just about any leader in the Imperium. That Ohone is not adhering to some ridiculous extreme in this respect that would be perceived especially negatively The context of Cruentus's death was that his laziness permitted a Chaos cult to grow and potentially destroy the entire ship, and everybody knew it. The context of Amacita's death was that she was a little impolite to us in public in a passive-aggressive way, which if left unchecked would have resulted in sweet gently caress-all, and everybody knew it. Unless you want to go to bat as saying that Amacita's curtness was the first crack in the edifice of our power which would have bought the whole thing down were it not for our heroic intervention, and everybody knew that, too. Do you really want to claim that the two are totally equivalent and that DiMuzio would have absolutely done exactly the same thing in our shoes? That Cruentus's crime was "laziness" and not "allowing a Chaos cult to take root"?
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Nov 23, 2015 07:49
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Tomn posted:The context of Cruentus's death was that his laziness permitted a Chaos cult to grow and potentially destroy the entire ship, and everybody knew it. It was "laziness allowing a demon to roam unchecked" actually. No one knew about the Chaos cult at that point, we found out about that from one afternoon of hanging out with Amacita's friends. Which, you know, raises some questions about how it stayed hidden from her for so long if she's so drat competent. And if you put any more spin on your depiction of Amacita's behavior it'll start creating an electromagnetic field. And I don't know what Dimuzio would have done exactly but there sure as poo poo would have been some serious loving consequences among which death is a possibility. I really don't know why you're trying to bother with the "Do you really want to claim [thing you didn't actually say which makes you look silly]" rhetorical trick when I've been perfectly explicit in what I'm claiming. paragon1 fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Nov 23, 2015 |
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Nov 23, 2015 08:01
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Arkanomen posted:She worshiped the Chaos God of being a worthless fuckup. *tips fedora, acknowledges shoutout*
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Nov 23, 2015 08:06
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Wasn't Amacita super involved with the cult as well, to the point of introducing us to Abraxus? I don't remember the specifics, but it was during our first face-to-face with her in secret.
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Nov 23, 2015 08:15
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As far as I'm concerned, the whole reason Ohone does anything is out of a powerful drive towards the betterment of humanity, a process which is at a critical turning point. She is absolutely not Stalin, and to say that not-Stalin-Ohone is purely a creature of Lowell is ridiculous. Yes, she is totally inept at managing people, but most of us are trying to vote to improve that.Tomn posted:The context of Cruentus's death was that his laziness permitted a Chaos cult to grow and potentially destroy the entire ship, and everybody knew it. Ralith fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Nov 23, 2015 |
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Nov 23, 2015 08:18
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Arkanomen posted:Wasn't Amacita super involved with the cult as well, to the point of introducing us to Abraxus? I don't remember the specifics, but it was during our first face-to-face with her in secret. She was, but no she didn't introduce us to Abraxus iirc our first encounter with the A-man was going oh poo poo run the gently caress away CODE OMEGA while we were investigating something. I remember it had to do with us watching for suspicious activity from a door cam? Something about servitors? She had really nice things to say about the leader when she was convincing us to check it out, and according to Lowell she was where they got most of their cash to set up things like the food distribution center where people got Damork'd
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Nov 23, 2015 08:31
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Really, upon reflection, it is somewhat unfair of me to blame Amacita for not noticing the cultists in her midst. The Dregs were her friends and allies, and the base of what power and support she had. She trusted them implicitly and to a certain degree unthinkingly, just like we did with Magos Kiera. There's a lot of parallels there actually. The main difference being Amacita kinda panicked and spent most of the crisis unconscious (because we knocked her out), whereas we lead a devastating civil war that involved, among other things, shoving all our citizens into a really tiny space, turning the whole ship into a Krieg's playground, and helping turn our husband into Saint.
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Nov 23, 2015 08:36
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Would it be possible to box our own brain and hide it in a pocket dimension like the Minds do? I'm thinking with all the upgrades to the Beast, how are we upgrading ourselves. We stole a boatload of dark age tech and have two AIs around along with the Eldar staff and the Warp Spine. We need to upgrade to the next level.
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Nov 23, 2015 09:13
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I had a thing written up, but Ralith's post caused me to notice what I think is the fundamental disagreement here, namely: Those in favor of killing Amacita thought that this...LowellDND posted:“Magos. How good of you to join us.” Without acknowledging you further, she turned back to the Sages. “What proposals are we looking at? I see you have a standard Destroyer build, an attempt at the old Space Hulk design… what else?” ...was a big deal. I don't. It was a petty problem that called for a petty solution. It was nothing that couldn't have been handled quickly, quietly, and cleanly, and it would probably have been better for our authority if we did actually do that since in trying to publicly kill her we pretty much openly acknowledged that we considered her to be a serious threat to our rule - which given the disparity of actual power between us and Amacita makes us seem insecure. The only real danger was that it potentially signaled more serious intentions on Amacita's part, but her private speech made it fairly clear that what she wanted was more for us to, in her eyes, do our job. Now, if Amacita had given us her speech in public or something of that sort, then sure, I'd agree that stricter measures might have been called for. But she said nothing that couldn't have been waved away with a face-saving explanation of a "misunderstanding," which I suspect is exactly what she had planned or she'd not have called us in for that private chat. To bring this back around to the root of the argument, the NPCs are just as aware of Amacita's public actions as we are. If they felt that Amacita's action was a big deal, they'd have agreed that killing her was justified. If they didn't, they wouldn't. The fact that the NPCs are more in fear of our arbitrariness than our awesome vengeance strongly suggests that the NPCs, too, didn't think it was that big a deal and that it could have been handled more quietly than, say, a very public and sudden execution of a major family member who'd been overseeing quite a lot of things. If you disagree, feel free to explain why. Explain, step by step, what the consequences would have been if we'd taken any action at all short of killing Amacita, and why those consequences were sufficiently dire to have justified Amacita's death and left us with no choice.
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Nov 23, 2015 09:20
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