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buglord
Jul 31, 2010




Buglord

My 850 came in today and I have had a bit of trouble. For one thing, it was connected to a SATA port on my ASUS motherboard that was blue (3gb/s) instead of 6gb/s. (It turns out my original HDD was connected to 3gb/s instead of 6 all along). I install the Marvell controller driver since that was missing, and and make sure the SSD is connected to a 6gb/s port. A few bios tweaks later and the samsung magician software stops complaining about AHCI mode being turned off. I run a benchmark, and my numbers look different, lower actually.

So now that I figured out the mystery of AHCI mode being off, now the magician software complains that SATA 6GB/s /SATA 3 isnt available. Strangely enough, when I boot up the computer, the basic Marvell boot screen shows that my SDD is connected to the 6gb/s port, and my HDD to the 3gb/s port. So what in the world am I doing wrong?





And for what its worth, my motherboard is a P6X58D-E. My OS is Win 10, and I had to install the Win 7 x64 Marvell drivers, as Win 10 drivers weren't available.

buglord fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Aug 24, 2016

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Steakandchips
Apr 30, 2009



I will be doing a mini itx build soon.

I'll be wanting an m.2 nvme ssd in 500gb. Are there any out that do not throttle? The Samsung 950 seems to enjoy throttling at the drop of a hat from what I have read.

HMS Boromir
Jul 16, 2011

by Lowtax


kurona_bright posted:

I guess my main worry is that the way it's telling me to make sure my system is 'configured properly' makes it seem like I've done something wrong with the machine. Also the previous results made me think that there was something wrong specifically wrt random writes, but looking at it now it seems a lot more evened out.

Don't worry about their "configured properly" spiel. In fact, make sure you don't mess with anything in the "OS Optimization" tab, it's all really weird things like turning off power saving features and disabling your page file.

For what it's worth my 850 EVO has been "underperforming" since day 1 in some benchmarks. It's still blindingly fast coming from a platter drive and while it's only been running for two months, it hasn't set itself on fire yet. Just uninstall Samsung Magician, all it's doing is ruining your peace of mind.

HMS Boromir fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Aug 24, 2016

BurritoJustice
Oct 9, 2012



Avocados posted:

My 850 came in today and I have had a bit of trouble. For one thing, it was connected to a SATA port on my ASUS motherboard that was blue (3gb/s) instead of 6gb/s. (It turns out my original HDD was connected to 3gb/s instead of 6 all along). I install the Marvell controller driver since that was missing, and and make sure the SSD is connected to a 6gb/s port. A few bios tweaks later and the samsung magician software stops complaining about AHCI mode being turned off. I run a benchmark, and my numbers look different, lower actually.

So now that I figured out the mystery of AHCI mode being off, now the magician software complains that SATA 6GB/s /SATA 3 isnt available. Strangely enough, when I boot up the computer, the basic Marvell boot screen shows that my SDD is connected to the 6gb/s port, and my HDD to the 3gb/s port. So what in the world am I doing wrong?





And for what its worth, my motherboard is a P6X58D-E. My OS is Win 10, and I had to install the Win 7 x64 Marvell drivers, as Win 10 drivers weren't available.

Don't use the 6GB/s ports. They are on a crappy third party controller with lovely drivers. Just use the intel ports from the chipset, you'll be limited to ~250mb/s sustained reads/writes, but your random performance will not be affected and that is what actually makes the difference between a SSD and a HDD.

buglord
Jul 31, 2010




Buglord

BurritoJustice posted:

Don't use the 6GB/s ports. They are on a crappy third party controller with lovely drivers. Just use the intel ports from the chipset, you'll be limited to ~250mb/s sustained reads/writes, but your random performance will not be affected and that is what actually makes the difference between a SSD and a HDD.

Cool beans. Does that mean reverting all the BIOS settings back then?

HMS Boromir posted:

Just uninstall Samsung Magician, all it's doing is ruining your peace of mind.

heh. maybe the OP needs an update then?

HMS Boromir
Jul 16, 2011

by Lowtax


Avocados posted:

heh. maybe the OP needs an update then?

The OP just tells you to use it to update firmware and run benchmarks, which is the extent of its usefulness. Well, that and enabling RAPID, but whether or not there's any point to that seems to be a subject of debate. The OP does need an update pretty badly though, to excise a bunch of scary-looking information about obsolete drives and add in a big screaming recommendation for the 850 EVO.

HMS Boromir fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Aug 24, 2016

space marine todd
Nov 7, 2014





So I've gotten two 850 EVO 2TB drives from Amazon and both of them have 4-6 bad sectors. Is this common? Is this something I can fix?

Or should I keep trying to replace them?

Ika
Dec 30, 2004
Pure insanity



Potato Salad posted:

The figure I presented on time saving at boot results from in-house testing of in-production user machines. Nothing artificial there. I get that's not your entire point, but know that tickets related to slow machines are way down, redeployment due to dead drives are down to sub-1% per year, complaints about our hardware in our annual user survey is waaaay down...

Sure, but if for example the employee comes into the office, boots his PC, goes to grab a coffee and chats for a few minutes before coming back and starting to work, it won't save any time.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




Ika posted:

Sure, but if for example the employee comes into the office, boots his PC, goes to grab a coffee and chats for a few minutes before coming back and starting to work, it won't save any time.

If, sure, yes. If. The mentality of "Well, this could impact user experience, but let's face it our users waste tons of time anyway and can work around this" leads to shops that slowly slide into practices and justifications that, taken on the whole, reveal a cynicism or contempt for the users.

If the user also opens programs that can take a few moments to boot on an HDD like Acrobat Pro, they also will benefit from quicker load time. My marketing / creative guys benefit enormously from greater responsiveness in Adobe products, but so to are the guys redlining hundred-page contracts thankful for quick loads and saves.

We must also ask ourselves why users who start their PC then go up to get coffee are conditioned to do so.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




Does anyone else want to choose "our users waste time anwyay" as a hill to die upon?

td4guy
Jun 13, 2005

I always hated that guy.



Avocados posted:

Cool beans. Does that mean reverting all the BIOS settings back then?
You should absolutely keep AHCI mode turned on.

Steakandchips
Apr 30, 2009



Potato Salad, sir, you are correct about all these things.

I keep telling people at work to get an ssd but they refuse to listen. It's annoying when the company will do it no questions asked and these uses still hang on to their old lovely spinning rust.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




Avocados, wait, did the board come with IDE mode on by default as opposed to AHCI? I'm actually interested in hearing about which MB model by Asus does this.

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Potato Salad posted:

Does anyone else want to choose "our users waste time anwyay" as a hill to die upon?

I hope not, like you said, it's a stupid argument. I did a similar proposal to yours (almost exactly the same actually....), but it was swept under the rug. Just a general increase in user satisfaction is a huge gain, there's no telling how much time is wasted because everyone is sick of their PC being slow so they create things to do because of it. Take that away, and you might find people want to get things done.

Arsten
Feb 18, 2003



Potato Salad posted:

Does anyone else want to choose "our users waste time anwyay" as a hill to die upon?

I'll suicide bomb that hill for you. I deal with the same stuff you do. People go "Oh, our users will never understand that." when I say "Here's a smart phone app they can fill out their time cards in to save time and money."


.......And then they buy them an iPad, have them fill out an excel spreadsheet version of the paper time card, and email it to a payroll processor. See? That's real high tech, guys. :smug:

buglord
Jul 31, 2010




Buglord

Potato Salad posted:

Avocados, wait, did the board come with IDE mode on by default as opposed to AHCI? I'm actually interested in hearing about which MB model by Asus does this.

P6X58D-E

Also I hardly screw around with the BIOS and motherboard in general so maybe I'm an idiot and am wrong about something.

Also this board is from 2010. As is the i7 930 processor. Is the processor still decent?

buglord fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Aug 24, 2016

Ika
Dec 30, 2004
Pure insanity



Potato Salad posted:

Does anyone else want to choose "our users waste time anwyay" as a hill to die upon?

Just wanted to play devils advocate, I'm all for SSDs for every workstation. (And our devs all have them, and they are being rolled out as machines are being replaced in the rest of the company).

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




Arsten posted:

I'll suicide bomb that hill for you. I deal with the same stuff you do. People go "Oh, our users will never understand that." when I say "Here's a smart phone app they can fill out their time cards in to save time and money."


.......And then they buy them an iPad, have them fill out an excel spreadsheet version of the paper time card, and email it to a payroll processor. See? That's real high tech, guys. :smug:

I am glad I am not on that hill, 'cos that sounds awful. [Looks at a timeclock system slated to be deployed to hourly staff in one of Potato Salad's environments, shivers]

Avocados posted:

Also this board is from 2010. As is the i7 930 processor. Is the processor still decent?

Ah, older device. Newer mobos come with AHCI automatically turned on. Makes sense that you'd have to switch from IDE to AHCI on that one.

Your processor is find if it still works for you. The Intel CPU thread was just debating about the viability of Core 2 Quad and even Core 2 Duo processors last week -- its all about perception. If it works for you, so be it.

Ika posted:

Just wanted to play devils advocate, I'm all for SSDs for every workstation. (And our devs all have them, and they are being rolled out as machines are being replaced in the rest of the company).

I was debating this (cynicism, users, and productivity) with an oldfag (actually similarly aged, but the term here applies to "back when I started, you were just in high school and we managed blah blah blah old tech was better" with respect to legacy systems the team replaced since Potato Salad joined up or just before) who is now departing maaaaybe a month ago, so I am slightly over-reactive on the subject. I get where pragmatism lets you leave a legacy system hosting a line of business application that's not public facing in place for a while, but Jesus the NT 3.x system has to go, and no, the old sub-5400rpm drives are not completely irrelevant to the dissatisfaction with slow systems in our helpdesk and surveys. Exit soapbox.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Aug 24, 2016

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




Skandranon posted:

I hope not, like you said, it's a stupid argument. I did a similar proposal to yours (almost exactly the same actually....), but it was swept under the rug. Just a general increase in user satisfaction is a huge gain, there's no telling how much time is wasted because everyone is sick of their PC being slow so they create things to do because of it. Take that away, and you might find people want to get things done.

I did do something slightly evil, in the interest of full disclosure, during the assessment. We had a line of laptops up for replacement on paper that were really only struggling in the real world with storage. I argued (and demonstrated) that replacing the drive with an 840 EVO (pre-patch, I have had to go back and set a task sequence in SCCM to install Magician and run the firmware patch since) would let us (1) get away with leaving those systems in production for another year and a half, saving cash now and (2) let use re-use those EVOs in the next generation. Management was already cozying-up to redeployment of SSDs where remaining write endurance was comfortably adequate for the lifespan of the next computer. There are some re-deployed SSDs out there that are coming up on warrantied time and started out in fresh machines with some wear counting against sticker endurance alredy.

It wasn't all sunshine and idealism, and I expect that maybe one or two of those redeployed SSDs will result in a drive replacement or two as a result. So long as the overall project appears to be a success, however..... :ssh:

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Aug 24, 2016

afkmacro
Mar 29, 2009





Do we have any idea what the 3d xpoint stuff is going to cost? I'm wondering if I get an evo now or wait for mansion beach stuff to come out.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares






I'd look to history here. Remember how god drat expensive high-end Skylakes looked when they came out? That's the enthusiast tier. Spitball price will be "Gouge the early adopters." Same with NVMe M.2 pricing right now -- still isn't really coming down. Why shouldn't Intel gouge the early adopters?

e- I meant this to be less direct -- Skylakes supported NVMe M.2 / PCIe / u.2 from launch last August. It's +1 year and manufacturers haven't lowered that poo poo much, and holy cow is the pricing of M.2 devices premium. Optane compatibility is coming out in enthusiast and mainstream tiers kinda close together in late Q4/ start of Q1, but make no mistake, they're going to treat the storage devices themselves as ultra-premium commodities.

I do look forward to being wrong :ohdear:

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Aug 24, 2016

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




I stumbled across this as perhaps a goofy way of spitballing price:



A TB of cheap-o desktop ram will run you $4k - $5 based on a quick browse through Newegg. 1TB of NAND costs $300 in the form of an X400 costs you $240. Halfway between them is in the range of a thousand or two dollars? 1.2 TB of Intel 750 NVMe will run you a thousand dollars, though, so perhaps 1TB of Optane will cost 2-3k?

It's all a crapshoot, but don't expect it to be anywhere near the modern lower cost of a SATA NAND drive. NVMe already is operating at "I pushed this button on my laptop and was instantly shown the login screen" levels of performance, so Optane frankly seems a little silly outside high-performance computing when it's possibly going to be in excess of 4x the price of NAND.

Good loving jesus I write a lot of words. Bottom line: Intel NVMe in the form of a 750 is already close to 4x the price of high-end TLC NAND. They only promise that Optane will cost more than NAND and less than RAM. NVMe is already the Holy Father of ssd for consumers and at the moment makes boot and loading games magically happen instantly. I would not wait for Optane as it will be very expensive for a long time.

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Aug 24, 2016

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

Potato Salad posted:

I stumbled across this as perhaps a goofy way of spitballing price:



A TB of cheap-o desktop ram will run you $4k - $5 based on a quick browse through Newegg. 1TB of NAND costs $300 in the form of an X400 costs you $240. Halfway between them is in the range of a thousand or two dollars? 1.2 TB of Intel 750 NVMe will run you a thousand dollars, though, so perhaps 1TB of Optane will cost 2-3k?

It's all a crapshoot, but don't expect it to be anywhere near the modern lower cost of a SATA NAND drive. NVMe already is operating at "I pushed this button on my laptop and was instantly shown the login screen" levels of performance, so Optane frankly seems a little silly outside high-performance computing when it's possibly going to be in excess of 4x the price of NAND.

I'm a little annoyed at my Intel 750 in terms of that "should boot straight to login", in that it doesn't. Windows 10 seems to like to hang for awhile with it's window up, but seems to be doing nothing. As soon as it's spinner comes up, it'll load everything else very quickly. Random too, sometimes doesn't hang at all, sometimes it does. Benchmarks all look as fast as they should, Windows just seems to like looking at the drive or something...

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002



nvme controllers make up a larger amount of the cost so better flash bins with higher endurance are used since realistically only enterprise will try to maximize the utility of nvme drives.

Marvell and Maxiotek started to develop low cost nvme controllers recently, so prices on pcie drives will fall a bit in a year or two across the board once those come out.

E: thanks phone

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Skandranon posted:

I'm a little annoyed at my Intel 750 in terms of that "should boot straight to login", in that it doesn't. Windows 10 seems to like to hang for awhile with it's window up, but seems to be doing nothing. As soon as it's spinner comes up, it'll load everything else very quickly. Random too, sometimes doesn't hang at all, sometimes it does. Benchmarks all look as fast as they should, Windows just seems to like looking at the drive or something...

Sure there's nothing in the startup that could be slowing things down like a driver for something plugged in? Might want to peruse the system logs.

Also I am wondering if Intel is doing any xpoint controllers at wider pcie widths. Especially if the nvdimms continue to be a headache.

Then when pcie gen4 shows up.. :getin:

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




Note that Microsoft is throwing out patches weekly if not more frequently and silently pulling and re-patching those patches even more frequently.

metallicaeg
Nov 28, 2005

Evil Red Wings Owner Wario Lemieux Steals Stanley Cup


Potato Salad posted:



I'd look to history here. Remember how god drat expensive high-end Skylakes looked when they came out? That's the enthusiast tier. Spitball price will be "Gouge the early adopters." Same with NVMe M.2 pricing right now -- still isn't really coming down. Why shouldn't Intel gouge the early adopters?

e- I meant this to be less direct -- Skylakes supported NVMe M.2 / PCIe / u.2 from launch last August. It's +1 year and manufacturers haven't lowered that poo poo much, and holy cow is the pricing of M.2 devices premium. Optane compatibility is coming out in enthusiast and mainstream tiers kinda close together in late Q4/ start of Q1, but make no mistake, they're going to treat the storage devices themselves as ultra-premium commodities.

I do look forward to being wrong :ohdear:

How many options have there been for NVMe? Outside of that OEM Samsung one, and the 950 Pro, and those more-or-less enterprise level Intel drives, there really hasn't been much else out there.

I think now, or at least soon, you can get into it with Kingston and Toshiba/OCZ but I don't think SanDisk/WD have anything yet that isn't still tied to SATA3.

I'm sure some of this is gouging for early adopters, but there's also been a real lack of options. And, M.2 slots themselves aren't out there on every board, and fewer of those that are use PCIe lines for the speed of NVMe.

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.




Oven Wrangler

Avocados posted:

P6X58D-E

Also I hardly screw around with the BIOS and motherboard in general so maybe I'm an idiot and am wrong about something.

Also this board is from 2010. As is the i7 930 processor. Is the processor still decent?

The Bloomfield/Nehalem i7s are stepping stones between the old world of Core 2 and the new world of Core i* so their performance in general reflects that fact, but they're topnotch chips (basically rebadged Xeons) for their era so depending on what you're doing it might be just fine. You'd definitely notice a difference on many games if you have a high-end graphics card but for office/media/web browsing stuff it's still pretty quick. Triple channel memory helps a bit to keep them feeling fresh, I'm sure.

They also overclock really well, 3.6GHz is within reach for many chips from that generation.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




metallicaeg posted:

How many options have there been for NVMe? Outside of that OEM Samsung one, and the 950 Pro, and those more-or-less enterprise level Intel drives, there really hasn't been much else out there.

I think now, or at least soon, you can get into it with Kingston and Toshiba/OCZ but I don't think SanDisk/WD have anything yet that isn't still tied to SATA3.

I'm sure some of this is gouging for early adopters, but there's also been a real lack of options. And, M.2 slots themselves aren't out there on every board, and fewer of those that are use PCIe lines for the speed of NVMe.

Hadn't thought about the mobo manufacturer pickup of the standard. Optane rollout by motherboard manufacturers might be even slower than m.2 given that it is likely to be even more expensive than NAND NVMe -- and thus less demand for it, especially in the beginning. Optane is going to call for (1) super-premium mobo (2) super premium drive (3) an almost-nonsensical drive to shell out for 1 and 2 for three figures of performance improvement over NVMe despite NVMe being pretty loving baller right now and still, given the lack of mainstream-priced options, in early adopter status in the real world.

Funny note: The Intel DC P3500 from a good VAR is the same price as an Intel 750 yet has 10x the endurance :ssh:

Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Aug 24, 2016

BIG HEADLINE
Jun 13, 2006

Make your launch.... 'cause mine's gonna be suborbital

I just wish someone reputable would've made one of those "fool your BIOS into thinking this NVMe drive is AHCI-compatible" PCIe drives for us legacies. Some guy claimed he got his Z68 ASUS BIOS to accept NVMe, but he never shared the secret sauce in the form of a downloadable ROM.

space marine todd
Nov 7, 2014





space marine todd posted:

So I've gotten two 850 EVO 2TB drives from Amazon and both of them have 4-6 bad sectors. Is this common? Is this something I can fix?

Or should I keep trying to replace them?

Any thoughts on this?

edit: The second drive actually has 180+ bad sectors. Can this be caused by a faulty SATA cable?

Anime Schoolgirl
Nov 28, 2002



space marine todd posted:

edit: The second drive actually has 180+ bad sectors. Can this be caused by a faulty SATA cable?
Faulty SATA cables can be the cause of a lot of weird things, so try replacing it.

Afterwards, you should also screenshot the SMART information for someone who knows how to read it because there's no real standard for SSD SMART values, unlike hard disks.

Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Aug 24, 2016

Skandranon
Sep 6, 2008
fucking stupid, dont listen to me

priznat posted:

Sure there's nothing in the startup that could be slowing things down like a driver for something plugged in? Might want to peruse the system logs.

Also I am wondering if Intel is doing any xpoint controllers at wider pcie widths. Especially if the nvdimms continue to be a headache.

Then when pcie gen4 shows up.. :getin:

Not really sure of anything, you're probably right, I just gave up futzing around with it as it doesn't really make a huge difference. It's just annoying when it does that and I think "I paid a lot of money to not have to wait this 15s..."

afkmacro
Mar 29, 2009





Potato Salad posted:

I stumbled across this as perhaps a goofy way of spitballing price:



A TB of cheap-o desktop ram will run you $4k - $5 based on a quick browse through Newegg. 1TB of NAND costs $300 in the form of an X400 costs you $240. Halfway between them is in the range of a thousand or two dollars? 1.2 TB of Intel 750 NVMe will run you a thousand dollars, though, so perhaps 1TB of Optane will cost 2-3k?

It's all a crapshoot, but don't expect it to be anywhere near the modern lower cost of a SATA NAND drive. NVMe already is operating at "I pushed this button on my laptop and was instantly shown the login screen" levels of performance, so Optane frankly seems a little silly outside high-performance computing when it's possibly going to be in excess of 4x the price of NAND.

Good loving jesus I write a lot of words. Bottom line: Intel NVMe in the form of a 750 is already close to 4x the price of high-end TLC NAND. They only promise that Optane will cost more than NAND and less than RAM. NVMe is already the Holy Father of ssd for consumers and at the moment makes boot and loading games magically happen instantly. I would not wait for Optane as it will be very expensive for a long time.

Thanks for the breakdown Potato Salad, it's much appreciated. I think I will get an evo for extra storage for the time being.

space marine todd
Nov 7, 2014





Anime Schoolgirl posted:

Faulty SATA cables can be the cause of a lot of weird things, so try replacing it.

Afterwards, you should also screenshot the SMART information for someone who knows how to read it because there's no real standard for SSD SMART values, unlike hard disks.

Thanks. I'm getting extra SATA cables tomorrow.

The bad sectors count I'm getting is from a partition manager's surface test, not SMART values.

Potato Salad
Oct 23, 2014

Nobody Cares




space marine todd posted:

Thanks. I'm getting extra SATA cables tomorrow.

The bad sectors count I'm getting is from a partition manager's surface test, not SMART values.

The smart values would be elucidating as they would tell the story of what's happening to the NAND cells themselves, not just the LBAs the controller serves.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

Skandranon posted:

I'm a little annoyed at my Intel 750 in terms of that "should boot straight to login", in that it doesn't. Windows 10 seems to like to hang for awhile with it's window up, but seems to be doing nothing. As soon as it's spinner comes up, it'll load everything else very quickly. Random too, sometimes doesn't hang at all, sometimes it does. Benchmarks all look as fast as they should, Windows just seems to like looking at the drive or something...

Update the firmware of the 750. The initial firmwares took longer to post than the current ones. I would bet something is up with your mobo. I don't have glitchy boots and I have installed 3 of these on brand new x99 and z170 mobos.

The Iron Rose
May 12, 2012

:minnie: Cat Army :minnie:


while i know it's no EVO, is the m.2 sandisk x400 not terrible enough to warrant including in my new laptop? It's a fair penny cheaper than the M.2 850 EVO.

redeyes
Sep 14, 2002
I LOVE THE WHITE STRIPES!

I say go for it, Sandisk are decent enough for reliability and the price is fantastic. Just got an x400 1TB myself. Reliability is up in the air at this point I think.

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buglord
Jul 31, 2010




Buglord

SSD's are cool and good now that I've had some time to use one with my desktop. My only weird goony complaint its that the startup times on Windows 10 are so good on HDD that the jump to SSD doesn't seem as big (but still quite noticeable). But it is nice loading up Battlefield 4 and not entering a match 5 minutes late because of load times. It's gonna be siiickkk when these eventually become the new defaults in a store-bought computer, that way all the horrible OEM bloatware isn't as crippling for folks who don't know better.

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