I'm taking a class on the holocaust

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Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

and the syllabus doesn't mention anyone but Jews, and we're reading a book by a scholar who claims you can only apply the word "holocaust" to the Jewish experience and nobody else. the index only mentions the word "Roma" twice and it's incidentally. i've had this professor a bunch of time and he's usually fantastic but i'm pretty skeptical this time. thanks for listening, GBS

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 19:52

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# ¿ Apr 18, 2024 23:52

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

Kazak_Hstan posted:

Why does that scholar think the holocaust is misapplied to groups other than Jews? What other books are you reading for the class? If the professor has been great in the past, maybe give benefit of the doubt.

its Yehuda Bauer and just perusing his wikipedia page he seems middle of the road, and acknowledges that roma/gays/criminals/slavs etc were targets for genocide but you can't call it the "holocaust" because they were specifically targeted as a nation/people and not a mere subclassification? he's sort of equivocating and claims both Israelis and Palestinians would be capable of genocide in the middle east in the right context, i think.

we're reading Night, which is lame and I read in middle school which is weird because in the other three classes i've taken w/this professor he's assigned some of the best things i've ever read, and he's one of the main editors of the international holocaust studies periodical so i'm sure he's familiar with Wiesel's asshattery. we're also going to be reading two more books that are tba for our major paper so i dunno if those will deal with the other 5 million people killed

BigBadSteve posted:

Fair call, so challenge your professors to talk more/discuss with the class the other groups the Nazis tried to eliminate as well. Without using that as an excuse to try and minimise the horror & tragedy of the systematic murders of all those Jews, which is what idiot racists do. They were the vast majority of victims in attempted genocides by the Nazis, but the others should not be forgotten.

Extra points for mentioning contemporary harassment of itinerant Gypsies in Europe.

i plan on doing this and also asking him about Norman Finkelstein because I've liked everything I've seen fro mhim but what kind of prick names a book "The Holocaust Industry" and it seems like a lot of reputable people are very skeptical about Finkelstein and i'm worried i only like him b/c I'm not a fan of Israel

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 20:36

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

logical phalluses posted:

let me get this straight. you're taking a holocaust class at hebrew university in jerusalem and you are surprised that the class focuses on the jewish victims of the holocaust.

lol no i'm taking a class that uses a book by a professor from a hebrew university in jersusalem, i'm in the american southeast

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 20:45

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

you irl posted:

who gives a poo poo just pretend to be into whatever opinions the professor has, get your grade, and move on

i like to learn things

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 20:54

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

Kazak_Hstan posted:

It might be worth keeping an open mind. Lots of other's were killed, but the centrality of both Jews in Nazi propaganda, and the Holocaust in the Jewish experience may well set the Jews apart. To a certain extent, I think it is fair to say the Nazis went genociding to get rid of the Jews, and other groups got swept up, as opposed to the Nazis deciding to genocide and the Jews just happening to be the biggest victim. To my knowledge, the pre-war Nuremberg laws, ghettoization as formal policy, etc., was not applied to groups other than Jews. That said, I'm not sure that means the specific word holocaust is off limits to Roma and Slavs. What word does he propose for genocide against other groups?

Night is pretty weak for what I assume is upper division college work. Why not All Rivers Run to the Sea? And what asshattery by Wiesel, I'm not familiar.

well apparently he advocates for a synthesis between functionalist and intentionalist interpretations and criticized that guy who came up w/the "exterminationist" approach, so it sounds weird to intrepret the Holocaust as uniquely Jewish while simultaneously understanding it was a product of dictatorial inertia. you're right about the pre-war nuremburg laws with the big exception of mental/physical invalids and criminals and stuff who were much more heavily excluded than they had been beforehand, iirc. i think he just uses the word "genocide" for other groups

he actually said he used to use that but it wasn't working, I guess because undergrads are stupid? i mean we're watching Night and Fog and Der Ewidge Jude so it's not all schlocky modern poo poo. i'm not a fan of Wiesel because of his opinions on I/P

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 21:26

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

ilikedirt posted:

so ur problem is w/ the label ur prof decides to use

i suppose

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 21:36

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

Frankenstyle posted:

Learn how to play ball. College is all about telling the prof what he wants to hear in exchange for the grade you paid for.

actually i've had a lot of success by genuinely engaging with the material

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 21:41

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

ilikedirt posted:

what r u goin to school for just curiouse

i am a historyt major

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 21:54

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

DUNCAN DONUTS posted:

Norm Finkelstein is a real dick but he owns. His evisceration of Dershowitz is still brutal to watch.

thats always been my understanding but i've also heard what sounds like valid criticism of that holocaust industry book

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 22:46

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

Synonamess Botch posted:

actually i think he's just paying for the fun of it

honestly you could just spend your money on hookers and blow and at least you'd have interesting stories to show for it.

what

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 22:53

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

Synonamess Botch posted:

poster one said you're paying for a grade. you said you were a history major. i insinuated that you're not even paying for that much, implying that i do not consider a history degree to be worth much. the end

maybe u should learn to be funny when expressing suck hackneyed sentiments, dumbass

# ¿ Aug 23, 2014 23:40

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

i think all majors are good because society needs educated people

# ¿ Aug 24, 2014 05:56

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

MadMattH posted:

I'm thinking that this class is specifically about the Jewish Holocaust and the OP didn't read the course description before enrolling in it.

nah it's just about the holocaust, though apparently that word inherently implies Jewish so perhaps I've just misread that my entire life

# ¿ Aug 24, 2014 16:26

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

i thought there's considerable controversy over whether the Jewish victims have exclusive claim over that term

# ¿ Aug 24, 2014 16:35

Frog Act: Feb 10, 2012

like it seems like "shoah" refers explicitly and exclusively to the Jewish experience and that the holocaust refers to all 11 million peeps killed. frankly getting upset about that and trying to make everyone use the generic term genocide for everyone but Jewish victims strikes me as like, profoundly distasteful

# ¿ Aug 24, 2014 16:39