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exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




My wife and I have been watching Bojack Horseman all summer and have just started the sixth season. It really is an incredible show, something I previously assumed was one of those Adult Swim kinda deals that ended up being one of the best-written dramadies on anxiety, addiction and relationships I've ever seen. The utter commitment to taking things that would be one-off gimmicks in any other series and twisting them around throughout the entire course of the show into often poignant and memorable realizations is just so far above any other series I've followed, animated or not.

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AlternateNu
May 5, 2005


PostNouveau posted:

Jesus, Will Arnett didn't even get nominated for one. The only voice acting nomination the show ever had was Kristen Schaal, once.

The category is all over the place though. I don't even know what the gently caress.



Did you know there is a Crank Yankers being produced in 2020? Me either, but apparently Wanda Sykes was better in it than Will Arnett was in The View from Halfway Down

I knew about Crank Yankers, but no loving way that show in any possible incarnation of it is worthy of the loving Emmy.

Also, I seriously disagree with listing Bojack as the animated GOAT. It's a great show, but it is very much a product of the time. I don't foresee it getting discussed in 20 years like BTAS and Cowboy Bebop do now. IMO, what makes those shows great is their timeless quality.

SweetMercifulCrap!
Jan 28, 2012


It's infuriating that The Simpsons is still somehow nominated for several categories every single year.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



Greatest animated show of all time is sort of a meaningless distinction, I think, like, "best novel of all time" or "best song of all time" because the field is so vast and varied that you can't neatly order things into a numbered list on any consistently agreeable criteria.

That said, Bojack is extremely good, and it's the best show of all time at being Bojack.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



I dunno, I can very easily see a scenario where I am a disintegrating 55 year
Old Busted Rodd and struggling with many of the exact same demons of depression, anxiety, and substance abuse and the wisdom of the tall horse and happy dog will come flooding back to me.

It’s virtually impossible to recognize history as it is happening, but I really don’t see a reason that a show that couldn’t be considered a timeless testament to incredibly vibrant animation as well as having deep, sometimes psychedelic focus on truly cerebral conundrums that DO NOT HAVE SOLUTIONS.

I’m someone who believes Cowboy Bebop is one of the most incredible stories ever told, but the actual plot of the show, such as it is, is only present 5 of the 24 episodes. Bojack laces an adult man working through his entire history of trauma and excess through 5 seasons of capers, hijinx, and slapstick, all while telling a story I honestly wouldn’t even try to explain to someone until they were pretty much an adult.

I can EASILY recognize Bojack as the GOAT today, and I’ll be pretty surprised if that changes in 5-10 years time (provided RBW or Will Armett don’t get outed as a serial perv or whatever)

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



Bojack will last the test of time I think, yeah. It's a unique and wonderful show that isn't just incidental entertainment. It's cerebral, moving, funny and clever for its entire run.

I dont know
Aug 9, 2003



Waffleman_ posted:

Well of course he shouted it out, The Tornante Company, the investment firm that funded the show, was founded by Eisner.

Not only that, he personally Green Lit it after an impromptu hall meeting. https://www.vulture.com/2018/09/boj...al-history.html

Michael Eisner, owner the Tornante Company posted:

Told that there was a meeting in Steven Cohen’s office with a well-respected young writer, I happened to be in the hall as the meeting ended. In a one-minute hallway conversation, I was told three ideas. One of which being: “This one is about an animated show about a living ‘person’ who has a body of a man and a head of a horse.” Thinking that sounded interesting, original, and theatrical in this century — yet harking back to my youth of Mister Ed, the talking horse from the early ‘60s — I simply said, “Yes, let’s do that one.”

I believe it's been their most successful property so far.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

I don't think "GOAT" for animation is a valid category. You can't be comparing Batman TAS, ATLA, Daria, Bojack, Cowboy Bebop against each other and have it make any sense. Two of them were "kids" shows, one was for the MTV teens, another was a sci-fi anime, and we all know Bojack.

As far as "never winning an emmy" that puts it in the same pantheon as The Wire. I'm sure in 10 years people will talk up Bojack as one of the greatest shows ever and the fact its animated will be a minor detail. There's not much else that brilliantly written that combined some of the zaniest humor with some of the darkest aspects of life.

pentyne fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Sep 21, 2020

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



pentyne posted:

As far as "never winning an emmy" that puts it in the same pantheon as The Wire. I'm sure in 10 years people will talk up Bojack as one of the greatest shows ever and the fact its animated will be a minor detail. There's not much else that brilliantly written that combined some of the zaniest humor with some of the darkest aspects of life.

I don't think it being animated is a minor detail, I think it's one of the biggest reasons the show is such a massive cult success. This is a much harder story to tell without it being animated, IMO, because the characters being animals really softens what would be otherwise truly nightmarish scenes. Imagine watching real actors do some of the things Bojack does and asking yourself if you'd tune to watch next season...

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011

I'm just goin' with the FLOW, baby.




I wanted to make a joke about a goat character but Bojack only had like 4 or 5 goats and none of them were like super important.

WSAENOTSOCK
Apr 13, 2002


Things competing that ought not be compared is why a comedy will never win best picture.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I posted a 7 point defense of corporate wage theft because my brain is full of worms.

WSAENOTSOCK posted:

Things competing that ought not be compared is why a comedy will never win best picture.

I mean, there are a lot of other reasons. Green Book and Crash winning best picture are the glaringly obvious ones.

Speaking of Green Book
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_96bgvIDlM

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004

.



WSAENOTSOCK posted:

Things competing that ought not be compared is why a comedy will never win best picture.

Shakespeare In Love was a comedy.

Der Kyhe
Jun 25, 2008

Think something witty and pretend it's written here.



Solice Kirsk posted:

Shakespeare In Love was a comedy.

90's was such a weird time; there were no "bad guys" per say, and Russia was just chilling as one of the countries in Europe.

WSAENOTSOCK
Apr 13, 2002


Solice Kirsk posted:

Shakespeare In Love was a comedy.
Naming one counterexample of a pretty well established thing doesn't make it any less of a thing.

Big Taint
Oct 19, 2003



Bojack: greatest animated show of all time.

4000 Dollar Suit
Dec 11, 2005

I rarely go into the field, motherfucker.

drat I binged the final 2 seasons and was good then I went to bed and cried myself to sleep, poo poo is weird.

Solice Kirsk
Jun 1, 2004

.



WSAENOTSOCK posted:

Naming one counterexample of a pretty well established thing doesn't make it any less of a thing.

But it does prove that

WSAENOTSOCK posted:

Things competing that ought not be compared is why a comedy will never win best picture.

is incorrect.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



https://twitter.com/radiantbutch/st...0811119616?s=21

Odd Mutant
Jun 21, 2007






It definitely is the best cartoon.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on




Pillbug

One thing that really shocked me is that it was incredibly consistent season-to-season in terms of quality. A lot of the time you see a dip in quality around season 4 or 5 but it was incredibly well done throughout.

And no “but season 1!” here, I really liked season 1. All of it.

Odd Mutant
Jun 21, 2007






Season 1 is great if you’re unsuspecting. After episode 4 you’re like “wow that was hosed up I wonder if there’s going to be any consequences” which is beautiful in hindsight

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on




Pillbug

Odd Mutant posted:

Season 1 is great if you’re unsuspecting. After episode 4 you’re like “wow that was hosed up I wonder if there’s going to be any consequences” which is beautiful in hindsight

For sure. I slammed the whole season on release day and was then baffled by all the bad reviews. The early stuff worked well enough to grab me and keep me hooked until it was apparent what the show would actually be.

Waffleman_
Jan 20, 2011

I'm just goin' with the FLOW, baby.




For advance reviews of Netflix seasons, reviewers are typically not given the entire season to watch, but just the first few episodes.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on




Pillbug

Waffleman_ posted:

For advance reviews of Netflix seasons, reviewers are typically not given the entire season to watch, but just the first few episodes.

It was 6 in the case of Bojack and led to a bunch of websites changing their policy to "not reviewing a season of a netflix show until we've seen all the episodes". But IMO the first 6 episodes were better than the C minus-ish reviews they got.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



A lot of people held the pilot in comparison to the big animated Seth Macfarlane comedies of the time. You literally CAN NOT do a cutaway gag without some breathless sycophant trying to paint you as a Family Guy knock off.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



I think the pilot did legitimately have that problem and the show got better from there.

Regalingualius
Jan 6, 2012


OTOH, I still love the fakeout with the Horsin’ Around series finale in the pilot.

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



I think the cutaway in episode one with Bojack running away when Princess Carolyn mentions having a baby is the main source of the Family Guy comparisons, and it is a super lame, easy, "haha, men fear commitment, women desire it!" joke that absolutely colours initial impressions of the show.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010

Don't look at me-
I'm ugly in the morning
When the headaches gone
The sun is not.
Forgot to turn the alarm
On - on




Pillbug

Irony Be My Shield posted:

I think the pilot did legitimately have that problem and the show got better from there.

Wasn’t the pilot written well before the rest of the show? I could have sworn I saw an interview about that and it would explain a ton about the tonal difference.

Regalingualius
Jan 6, 2012


Right, plus all of the later awkwardness about Bojack and PC having been a couple that basically painted them into a corner at some points.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



I dunno, I think having an ex of his be a permanent fixture really helps flesh him out and also was a really good example of one of the biggest buffers shitbags like Bojack have. If someone you used to love, or at least really care about, still vouches for you and cares about you, it helps you to feel redeemable in a way that you cannot fake. If you go through life just constantly shedding friends and relationships, people notice that. If you’re in your 40s and you have no close friends or relationships, that’s a pretty huge red flag to anyone getting to know you. PC legitimized him for much longer than he would have otherwise gotten away with, IMO

Iron Crowned
May 6, 2003


Bust Rodd posted:

A lot of people held the pilot in comparison to the big animated Seth Macfarlane comedies of the time. You literally CAN NOT do a cutaway gag without some breathless sycophant trying to paint you as a Family Guy knock off.

I feel like a lot of reviewers barely even watch pilot episodes judging by the way they review a lot of things.

luxury handset
Jan 24, 2018

THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON


Ugly In The Morning posted:

Wasn’t the pilot written well before the rest of the show? I could have sworn I saw an interview about that and it would explain a ton about the tonal difference.

yeah, a chunk of the pilot was written and produced before and used as pitch material. then they had so little time to make the rest of the season they just built from that point, albeit knowing the overall arc of the season in some detail. from this interview

https://www.vulture.com/2018/09/boj...al-history.html

other tidbits:

the show is very much a collab between raphael bob-waksberg and lisa hanawalt. his pitch was centered around her sketch of a horse man, and she initially didn't want to do the show. the producers asked again months later because nobody could produce concept art that nailed the same mood as the original horse man sketch

mr. peanutbutter, in the original idea, is bojack's agent. there was another horse named honeybucket who took on the mr. peanutbutter role. honeybucket was dating diane, who was a production executive. there was another character, chelsea, who was bojack's on/off girlfriend and they were in a mutually toxic relationship. todd was the same but named topher

quote:

Steven A. Cohen: Well, one casting story we always point to is the line Raphael had written in the script was that there was “a Keith Olbermann type” for Tom Jumbo-Grumbo.

Raphael Bob-Waksberg: “Keith Olbermann whale,” which is what I think the script described it as. It was just trying to describe the character!

Steven A. Cohen: Right. We didn’t think he was going to be Keith Olbermann.

Raphael Bob-Waksberg: Linda said, “Let’s get Keith Olbermann! We can do it!” And then we recorded him and we did all the lines, and afterward we just said, “Okay, now can we just get some whale noises from you?” And this is in New York; he’s over the phone, and he says, “Mmmmmmwrrrrwrwrwwrwr!” [whale noise] and it’s like, “That’s Keith Olbermann! Making whale noises for our dumb little cartoon!”

Mike Hollingsworth: We were like, “Can you make a noise like you’re spraying water out of the back of your head?”

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




For years I thought Bojack Horseman was some kind of meme Adult Swim type show and now I'm finishing up the last 3-4 episodes of season six kinda regretting that it has to end. It's really just an incredibly written series. Things you think are just going to be one-off gags are consistently returned and reconfigured into something far more meaningful. I appreciate the show's dedication to creating characters who genuinely grow over time and don't immediately revert back to their Episode 1 selves as soon as the season is over.

Bust Rodd
Oct 21, 2008

TURDS BOD



It genuinely elevated the medium of animated drama. That’s a lot more impressive than I think people really understand. It’ll be interesting to see what folks inspired by Bojack come up with (I’m also low key terrified that it’s gonna turn into a Chris Nolan film school thing, where dozens of troubled and tortured young artists all want to make their own Bojack, sort of completely missing the point of the show)

Ogmius815
Aug 25, 2005
I have relinquished D&D and moved on to new and more pleasant heights. Report me if you see me posting there!

Bust Rodd posted:

It genuinely elevated the medium of animated drama. That’s a lot more impressive than I think people really understand. It’ll be interesting to see what folks inspired by Bojack come up with (I’m also low key terrified that it’s gonna turn into a Chris Nolan film school thing, where dozens of troubled and tortured young artists all want to make their own Bojack, sort of completely missing the point of the show)

Calling Bojack a drama is actually a pet peeve of mine, because it overlooks that the show was extremely funny.

exquisite tea
Apr 21, 2007

Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."




Yeah one of the things the show does very well is balance drama with its absurdist streak without urkelizing any of the storylines or characters. Even Todd who is their B-plot stalwart still gets his own character arc.

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!




Meanwhile, I'm over here quoting Speckle about having two kinds of oven fries, and can't wait for the next bit.

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WSAENOTSOCK
Apr 13, 2002


It's a dramedy.

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