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A friend of mine recommended this to me the other day. I'd seen it on Netflix and thought it looked interesting, but had only vague plans to watch it. Then September rolled around and the publication deadline for my thesis research started staring me down and I went looking for distractions. This show really, really hit a chord with me. The building continuity as the series went on was very compelling, especially as we learned more about Bojack. His particular issue of being smart enough to know he has problems but plays dumb to avoid having to confront them is very familiar. The imagery is quite powerful, including his drug-induced hallucination of a different world where he had the guts to follow Charlotte to Maine. At first glance he's just an rear end in a top hat has-been curmudgeon, but the show really delivers on the depth - just as he's described in his own memoir, flawed yet sympathetic. The bit where Bojack tries to write his own version of the memoir in a week and goes through all the classic writing distractions was also incredibly relatable - I myself just watched the whole season then turned around to post it on the internet because I'm scared to death of finishing a draft my old supervisor expected yesterday. I think I've done everything he tried there except possibly the drugs thing. I do have to wonder if there's enough material for a second season, though. I mean they clearly set one up at the end but the first season was a fairly tight story that revolved around unpacking Bojack's issues as the memoir got written. Then again, the show made a lot of good points about how life doesn't just stop on a happy ending, I remember thinking the outcome of episode 9 felt like a season-ender and they made that very point in episode 10. If they do revisit anything, maybe Herb. It's too late for Bojack to make things right, but that was still a dark note to end on there. Even if it's just at his funeral. Anyway, tl;dr, great show. DivisionPost was right, it probably won't work for everyone, and I can even think of some people who'd be seriously bummed out by it, but it's definitely worth a shot. Seriously I feel kinda like poo poo after watching it but I wish I could watch it again.
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Sep 19, 2014 05:15
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Yeah, I'm a little iffy on a second season too but they're not short on material. At a guess filming Secretariat will probably serve the same narrative purpose as the memoir did in the first season, which is a window into Bojack's own issues - particularly since Diane's on the project. My bet is Bojack will want to gloss over his hero's flaws and see giving Secretariat a redemptive take as a way to redeem himself, while Diane, who knows him well and whose job it is to rein in the production, will have to challenge him on those beliefs. It's actually a pretty good way to change up the way they did things with the memoir, particularly since neither of them are in charge of the movie and the concern is making it sell rather than making it faithful. A few obvious episodes and scenes suggest themselves. There'll probably be an early episode about Bojack getting into shape and the challenge of looking like a horse half his age, and I'd be stunned if Bojack doesn't go visit Charlotte at some point (probably discovering she's married with kids or some such thing). Herb's funeral is almost certain, too. Dolash fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Sep 20, 2014 |
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Sep 20, 2014 23:00
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It's also kind of important to have some more normal, relatable characters around because if your world is made up of nothing but assholes and morons then it's harder to care about the protagonist being an rear end in a top hat. Stealing those muffins from the seal doesn't bother us much because the seal's kind of an rear end too, but when Bojack hurts other characters Diane helps us cut through his bullshit smokescreens and get at his actual motivations. Todd and Princess both get the chance to call Bojack out as well, usually when Diane's not available (sometimes because she's the one Bojack's going to hurt today), and when they do they sound a lot more grounded and straightforward than they do when they're taking part in some wacky shenanigans.
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Sep 22, 2014 04:21
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Carolyn is 40, so I'm guessing they're using human lifespans. I don't expect the show to ever go into detail about why some characters are animals, that's just part of the premise and to lighten the mood.
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Sep 24, 2014 20:57
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I've never followed a Netflix show when it comes out. How does Netflix usually roll out new seasons? Is it a midnight release deal or do they have a particular time of day?
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Jul 17, 2015 04:14
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Started watching just now. I thought of waiting until tomorrow night, but somehow staying up into the early hours Thursday while drinking feels more in keeping with the spirit of the show.
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Jul 17, 2015 08:41
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So far it's feeling like the same quality of the back half of season 1 from the getgo. If this keeps up it'll be a hell of a season.
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Jul 17, 2015 09:05
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Yeah, episode 4's good, but it almost felt like they're spreading themselves a little thin, a little early? In the first season storylines matured at their own pace but episode 4 felt a bit like they were just checking in with everyone to make sure all their bases were covered. That's really nitpicky though, it's a good episode. Lisa Kudrow is an excellent fit. Now episode 5, there's one that's not afraid to take a question nobody'd really been asking and answer the poo poo out of it. Edit: Just gonna add after finishing 5 that meat being the result of a freaky soylent-green-is-people style industry that uses hormone injections to keep sentient animals brain-dead sounds just about right. Dolash fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jul 17, 2015 |
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Jul 17, 2015 10:43
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Bown posted:“I’ve got two days, I can do all those things!” *TWO DAYS LATER* “Oh poo poo, I didn’t do any of those things!” I cracked the gently caress up at that line because I have said and done exactly what Bojack did for every weekend this entire year. It resonates with the core appeal of Bojack Horseman and the general theme of the first episode itself, which is constantly papering over your problems with desperate optimism and forced can-do attitude. When you're in the hole every weekend starts with "This is the weekend I turn things around! I've got two whole days! That's so much time, if I do nothing but work I'll catch up on everything!" And then you don't do anything because hey, you've still got [remaining time in the weekend right up until midnight Sunday] and that's loads. The first episode did a great job of reestablishing where Bojack was after the first season, and bits like that highlighted his chronic procrastination and the way that for all his effort to look like he'd changed, he hadn't. Edit - the mother stuff was fine. Bojack's a really broken guy, so it makes sense that he'd have a really corrosive connection in his private life that got him to that point. In particular I thought (from episode 1) the bit with her fighting with Bojack's dad and drowning out the response Secretariat gave to Bojack's question on TV was a good, sad spin on the scene from season 1 and the way that hearing from his mother again is what broke him of his illusion of improvement (which ironically is what he needed to act, since he can't really act so he has to be actually miserable) was really brutal. Dolash fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jul 17, 2015 |
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Jul 17, 2015 17:19
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Victorkm posted:I really want a copy of "It's 2012!" Magazine, with an article titled "100 Breast Autocorrect Fails" All the owl gags have been pretty good so far, particularly the little ones. From the same episode, her introduction where she's rollerskating, does the spin and her head stays still was perfect.
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Jul 17, 2015 19:39
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Snuck in episode 7 at lunch and goddamn is that timely. And depressing.
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Jul 17, 2015 20:50
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Want to expand on episode seven, specifically I found it a little weird they weren't willing to have the characters say the Hippo had sexually abused his assistants. They made a point in the episode that everyone was dancing around actually saying the allegations but then when Diane steps up to say it outright the show cuts away. What made it especially bad is that this unwillingness to engage with the actual weight of a rape accusation contributes to the very silence and permissiveness the show is trying to criticize. I feel like someone in the writing room said "We can't have Diane say rape, because if Bojack looks like he doesn't really care about rape that's too far and we'll lose the audience." But that's the unfortunate reality on the show, just as it is in real life - that the Hippo can get away with his abuse because all anyone wants to talk about is how the story's affecting media perception. They want to keep the focus on the character relations, I get it, and Bojack standing up for Diane when passers-by insult her and trying to convince her that pursuing the story is bad for her career is meant to seem supportive. The problem is the rape accusations they're dancing around, if directly addressed, would (or should) completely overshadow whatever Bojack and Diane have to say to each other. Bojack discussing how his feelings were hurt by Diane's book and deciding he should support her as a friend is disconnected from the seriousness of the crime Diane is trying to raise awareness of. The show's used real issues as plot devices to prompt character interactions before, but even if the writers seem uncomfortable with the way they turned sexual abuse into a macguffin. It doesn't help that they contrasted this in their big scene with Todd bringing up the war he just touched off. Yes, we get it, there are bigger and more far-reaching tragedies going on in the world than celebrity sexual misconduct, but they don't seem to feel the need to trot that out to belittle other concerns. Both war and abuse from men in privileged positions can be bad, and that both don't receive the coverage they deserve in the media is bad, but setting one against the other is a cheap shot. And one quick follow-up, but Mr. Peanutbutter not being supportive was a bit harsh considering the last time we'd checked in with the two of them was episode 4 and they'd just reached what seemed like a genuine understanding that Diane was going to try and do more meaningful work. It's well-supported in the episode with him being concerned by the death threats and trying to steer Diane away from something that could destroy his comeback, although again we're faced with the issue that if they set this against rape allegations his concerns would seem way too petty. I still liked the episode and especially for trying to tackle such heavy subject matter, but there's still some points worth discussing. The little ending scene was really well done, though. Really captured the futility.
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Jul 17, 2015 21:40
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Made it home and finished episode 8. Elijah Wood. Pure Bojack. Although I'm uneasy about Mr. Peanutbutter's forgiveness, he's simple enough that he might honestly admit his producers ordered him to forgive Bojack then sincerely forgive Bojack anyway, but he's also shown moments of unexpected depth and this might be one of those times where he nurses a grudge. I was totally expecting Todd and that mouse to hook up, too, which was a nice subversion - and goddamn if J. D. Salinger isn't the breakout new cast member.
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Jul 18, 2015 05:09
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I'm just getting into episode 11 and all the hype people have for it has me filled with dread. She has a family, drat. This is going to be a disaster. Edit Oh goddamnit, she's accommodating despite I think seeing straight through him, this is going to be a disaster. Edit2: oh goddamnit Bojack no you can't stay! Of course you can't stay! You can't - while I was writing this you stayed there for two months! Goddamnit! Edit3: Just... Ahhhhhhh what are you doing. Edit4: Goddamnit I did not expect some American Beauty poo poo. Edit5: AHHHH Dolash fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 07:22
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Christmas Present posted:Just finished watched the back half, really enjoyed this seasons- did anyone else think, at the end, that it just... ends? I mean, yeah, the running metaphor for powering through stuff that sucks in order to make it suck less over time works well, and it was cool to think back and go 'ohhh yeah the sight-gag hill-running mountain goat man'- but it felt more like an episode end than a season end to me Just finished myself and I have to agree, even with episode 11 basically being the emotional climax of the season the same way it was last season, and to great effect, the ending was flat. The running thing had some buildup especially tying into Secretariat himself and his advice to Bojack, but it wasn't an arc like the book last season, it was just a bit. Secretariat falling apart for Bojack completely kind of took the season plot with it, since it was the organic culmination of the first season's book plotline. There was something cathartic in the idea of broken Bojack making a film about his similarly troubled childhood hero which made the ending to season one work even if it had ended up being the only season, with Bojack looking off into an uncertain future that still has potential. Obvious Bojack doesn't get to have redemption, but without some kind of plot thread dangling the prospect off in the future why does Bojack get out of bed? It's a similar issue with Charlotte and her family, since along with Herb they're Bojack's unfinished business and biggest regrets. Herb was finished last season, there was no walking that back for Bojack, but Charlotte remaining unresolved left the door open to at least the dream of something positive. Now Bojack probably burned that bridge worse than he did with Herb - there's not really anything left unless Charlotte's daughter runs away from home or her husband finds out what Bojack got up to and divorces her and there's only bad outcomes for those from the getgo. And Wanda, ouch. She felt a little underutilized but I couldn't tell if that was supposed to be deliberate, the way Bojack started ignoring her and her concerns gradually growing over the season. It's possible she won't be back next season if Bojack's off to New York and depending on how things shake out with Jill Pill, which is a pity. I feel similarly bad for Kelsey, whose abrupt exit was very effective and signaled the death of the Secretariat movie, but who'd brought a lot to the season. I want to echo the sentiment about Todd that he's sort of gone too far in the wacky direction, even though providing lighter comic-relief C-plots is basically his whole shtick. Todd's whole "I just stopped expecting you to turn into a good person" thing last season felt like a real arc, while this season he was back to normal and the improv cult didn't really go anywhere. Mr. Peanutbutter and Diane are pretty much the only ray of hope in the whole bleak world. Diane cratering and Mr. Peanutbutter calling her back just the way she dreamed, without question or judgment, because he loves her - that was a very cathartic cap to Diane's struggle with wanting to do more meaningful work and weighing that against her marriage. She does kind of have the same problem that Bojack does now that she's explored all her big-ticket plots though. That and Princess Carolyn finally scoring a win. That felt huge, like an actual character triumph in a show that prides itself in making the point that characters don't change. So two rays of hope. So all in all, while episode 11 is great and could stand as its own thing, episodes 10 and 12 just don't give quite as satisfying a conclusion to the season as a whole or set things up for next season quite as well as season 1 did. I enjoyed it, but I don't know if there's another season in it the way they set things up, pretty much all hope for Bojack's snuffed out while some of his friends feel wrapped up. Sorry for the text dump but drat there's just so much to unpack in this show and binging draws this out. Edit - I wonder what Bojack's friends would make of the events of episode 11, if they knew? Would it just be one more bad thing Bojack had done, or would it go too far even for people accustomed to him? Dolash fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 09:42
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LeJackal posted:ts ironic that he told her "You don't know what you want" because he is is the same boat. Ba-dump tsh! They did a pretty good job of muddying the whole situation up. The way Charlotte encouraged him to stay and definitely had some inappropriate feelings for him, she didn't know what she wanted either. Bojack turned Penny down every time but there was definitely some transference for Bojack from Charlotte to her daughter - at first I was sure they must be messing with us and Charlotte must have misinterpreted, like Penny was just there to talk, like not even Bojack could cross that line. The stuff with Penny's friends and the alcohol was really, really bad and almost seemed to be there just to cut through the ambiguity around his interactions with Charlotte and Penny to remind us in no uncertain terms that Bojack's just broken, awful and selfish. I think if Bojack's friends saw what happened with him in New Mexico the way we saw it he wouldn't have a friend left, but hearing parts of the story second-hand would probably give them enough distance to shrug it off as just another bad decision. In a different world, Charlotte stayed at Herb's funeral for ten more minutes to chat with Bojack and mentions she's married with kids, and Bojack goes back to Wanda at the end of episode 10. After sleeping on it, I think the last quarter of the season or so is the issue. Episode 11's great, but it's basically completely self-contained and could've happened at just about any point in the season. Unlike last season's episode 11 it didn't really tie in with the main plot, which in episode 10 sort of falls apart very quickly. Todd joining the improv cult doesn't have as much weight as him figuring out Bojack had sabotaged him, while Bojack and Wanda's breakup feels kind of abrupt and shallow since despite the slow buildup of issues and red flags it just comes down to Bojack suddenly unloading on her being a network exec. Once Kelsey's fired Bojack just quietly abandons Secretariat and it becomes a day-job, him letting go of the film when he realizes it's neither his acting nor the story he wanted to tell was decent enough but it's ending a core plot thread on a whimper. The season just doesn't really culminate with the finale the way it did last time. Dolash fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 18:33
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Victorkm posted:Episode 11: My interpretation of what happened is that Bojack, once he found out that Charlotte was married and had a family, had a bit of a breakdown and reverted to his sitcom origins. He became the Uncle Joey to Charlotte's Full House, or the Cody to her Step by Step, more accurately. He used that feeling to escape reality for a while until reality came back at him in a big way with Penny coming on to him. Man the weirdest thing about episode 11 to me is until that point, Charlotte was more of an idea than a person, as she was in season 1's episode 11 as a representation of the dream "other life" Bojack could've had. That she went on to have a family of her own isn't too surprising, but the way she reacted to Bojack was - inviting him to stay is such a strange move, what was she thinking there? She must've seen through the boat show thing. By the time of the prom she was leaning on him more than her husband, and then their talk in the backyard, she's got this whole unexplored character and life we only saw a bit of. Was she unhappy with Kyle? Nostalgic for her free youth? Did she really have strong feelings for Bojack that'd persisted all this time? It feels like Charlotte and Bojack must be completely finished now, but I really want to see some kind of follow-up. I want to see how Charlotte's family recovers from their brush with Bojack, and better understand why Charlotte in particular did what she did. I could watch a whole episode without Bojack just dealing with the fallout there, but otherwise some plotline about Penny running away from home or Charlotte getting divorced (the only reasons I can imagine for her reentering Bojack's life at all) would be interesting. Edit: Or that girl who got alcohol poisoning dies and the family sues but that might be a little too dark even for this show. Dolash fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 22:28
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So a parallel from the episode 11s, at the start of Bojack's fantasy he's working outside and Charlotte calls "Bojack, supper's ready!" from the house. After the two-month cut he's on his boat and Charlotte does the same thing from her house. Also, this: http://i.imgur.com/l5By7MK.png
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Jul 18, 2015 23:15
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Bojack doesn't necessarily need to be happy, I liked the ending of season 1 in no small part because they found something like an uplifting ending without having to cure Bojack's depression. He and Diane had worked out their issues, his career was resurrected from the ashes, he was perfectly aware that these things didn't really make him happy, but he was still open to the possibility of happiness in the future. In a way it's why I think the little ending bit this season with the Macaque feels a bit unearned. He didn't really do anything this time. It's hard to take him "focusing on what matters" by skipping out on a movie he didn't believe in anymore to rescue Todd from improv because the whole improv plotline just felt like another wacky Todd misadventure stretched out a little rather than being something that culminated over the whole season. Satisfying progress for Bojack doesn't have to mean he's happy, he just has to make positive steps. Being able to recognize the damage he's doing and stopping himself would be something. Most of the things that would make him happy he admits would only make him happy "for a little while", so I think they've got plenty of room to explore Bojack getting better regardless of whether he's happy or not, like making amends and not hurting people in the future.
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Jul 19, 2015 06:46
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I sort of assumed that after episode 12, the two of them went home and Diane told him the whole story. The only thing that'd been holding her back was fear of rejection and judgment and Mr. Peanutbutter signaled pretty unambiguously that he'd accept her no questions asked. It's really not as big a deal as Diane thought, "I tried for a month but it was just too awful and then I was too ashamed to show my face" is a pretty sympathetic story. Her perspective seemed to have changed a lot from her conflict between wanting to do important work and being with Mr. Peanutbutter early in the season and by the end of the season she just wants to be back with Mr. Peanutbutter, I think that particular source of conflict in their marriage could be resolved.
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Jul 19, 2015 11:01
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Waffleopolis posted:Also, how many times to we see the old runner in the season? I'm pretty sure it was more than twice from the first episode and the end scene. Definitely a few times across the season, but one thing I wasn't sure about was I got the impression in the first episode that Bojack had lost quite a bit of weight and the first time we see the macaque he seems a little out of shape too. But over the course of the season, I think Bojack slowly puts the weight back on whereas the macaque looks in slightly better shape. I honestly can't decide if that was actually happening or if I'm imagining it because it's pretty subtle if true. As for the ending, I'm still thinking it might've been stronger with a few tweaks. Like, if dropping Secretariat that Bojack doesn't care about anymore to rescue Todd is meant to be the big climax, it might've been good if Bojack's friends' plots tied into it somehow - like he needed Princess Carolyn, Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter (maybe even Wanda) to help him pull off the rescue and their involvement drives them to tackle their own issues. Maybe that's too saccharine, but as-is the improv cult stuff didn't feel as climactic as last season's book launch and more involvement might've upped the stakes. And as great as episode 11 was, maybe tweaking it a little to connect to the rest of the season more would help the way last season's episode 11 was. As-is I can't really correlate Bojack's experience in New Mexico with his decision to help Todd over sticking with the movie, maybe if the focus stayed on Charlotte not wanting to run away with Bojack because she has a family she cares about (Kyle detecting her budding infidelity being the breaking point rather than Penny)? I feel like tampering with episode 11 might make it weaker as a standalone but it's not contributing as much to the season overall as it should. Edit: VVVV Yeah, pretty much exactly. Dolash fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 17:50
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I dont know posted:A page back, but I think Charlotte was in a similar headspace as Bojack, looking back at what could have been. The difference is she doesn't hate her life and herself. I think she accepted Bojack into her home in with a mixture of nostalgia, pity, a general desire to help, and a tiny bit regret for not building a life with him when she was in her 20's. Clearly she has some kind of feelings for him, and I wonder if she had similar dreams about what her life would have been like with Bojack. When Bojack finally lays everything out in the backyard and she starts talking about how they only knew each other for 5 minutes 30 years ago, I think she is talking to herself more than him. Of course, when she find him with Penny everything snaps into focus, and any trace of fantasy or nostalgia is destroyed instantly. Yeah, I really don't think Bojack and Penny were on Charlotte's radar at all. Maybe a tiny bit when he first returns and she quickly asks about her, but she settles down, she really doesn't realize the danger. After that kiss she seemed a hair's breadth from sleeping with him herself before she gets a grip and asks him to leave, there's an alternate outcome I could imagine where it's Penny who walks in on Charlotte and Bojack and he leaves the family just as devastated. My first impression of episode 11 had been that it burned Charlotte as a plot point for Bojack as much as Herb was, but the more I think about it the more I'm thinking of all the potential consequences and ways his actions in New Mexico could come back to haunt him. The ambiguity surrounding Charlotte's feelings are a big part of what made her interesting even when first introduced, we don't have much of a better sense of what she wants than Bojack and possibly she doesn't really know either. He might've destroyed any sentimental illusions she had about who he was, but he's also left enough of a mark on their home life now that Bojack could be inescapable - I'd love to see the fallout of Bojack's departure the next morning, but at best we'll probably have to infer the outcome if we ever see any of those characters again. A scene where Penny accuses her mother of jealousy or tells her father Bojack had been there for his wife the whole time and she knew it would be agonizing.
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Jul 20, 2015 09:21
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You really can't just cede ground on what rape is - especially in a whole episode patterned around how people are trying to do exactly that. If the question is "we all know what they're talking about, why do they need to say it?" then the answer is it needs to be said because we all know what they're talking about, and everyone knowing what's going on while being too uncomfortable to admit it directly is the very core of the issue concerning powerful men exploiting their positions to sexually abuse women. They want us to take Diane's side on this, that's pretty clear, but the show itself isn't completely willing to take her side. They literally have a moment where she points out nobody has the guts to name the allegations on-air and when she goes to do so we cut away - it's like the show's giving a knowing wink to their own discomfort and unwillingness, which isn't actually an excuse. I don't think they avoided using the word rape to avoid triggering those assholes whose first reaction is "oh, women lie about rape all the time, it's probably bullshit", those assholes are meant to be the target. I think the issue is they want to set up a little ambiguity around Diane pursuing a worthy cause particularly to fit into her overarching arc about wanting to do important work, and they may have realized if the characters are forced to face the full implications head-on it's hard to stay on the fence. Even Sebastian and the war-torn Cordovia was presented so over-the-top as to be played for laughs, but a rapist getting away with his crimes due to his position is too dark to make jokes about directly - as soon as that little boy Diane befriended was blown up they were cracking jokes but I don't remember one sex joke concerning the hippo, the comic relief came from the magazine and Todd's latest goofishness. It's still a good episode and it tackles a very serious issue in what is mostly a very honest way. I remember seeing one person say they finally understood why some women don't like "innocent" comments like the guy at the end telling her to smile. I do think that they fell short of their aims a little, though. Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Speaking of the episode where they reunite the Horsin' Around cast, did anyone else find it incredibly disappointing? All we get is some sort of mystery, followed by them solving the mystery and not a whole lot else. It hints at some interesting character development, but nothing comes of it. Princess Carolyn's bit was pretty funny, though. I really enjoyed how they each had a flashback to a moment where Herb had been there for them or provided some kind of advice, and showing how they completely missed the point. It was also nice that the other two kids didn't grow up to be complete and utter trainwrecks, it felt a little more balanced that way.
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Jul 21, 2015 01:51
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Sleeveless posted:You know that episode of the Simpsons where Troy McClure has a sham marriage but instead of just having him be gay they made him have a fish fetish because it's a wacky cartoon world? I figure that having the hippo be sexually abusing women but not explicitly saying how was just Bojack's pitch-black version of that. This isn't sneaking things under the radar, though, unless there's some kind of censor rating Bojack had to squeak under that somehow let the rest of the season go. They're definitely pulling their punches. I'm sympathetic to why they're doing it from a writing perspective, there's all kinds of problems they'd have to deal with (from audience reactions, shitheads preprogrammed to side against rape allegations and writing difficulties where characters we're supposed to think have a fair point are forced to say "Yes, but" to rape directly), it's just a little less powerful than it otherwise could be.
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Jul 21, 2015 03:34
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I feel like in episode 11 they might've wanted to create at least a little ambiguity with the door thing. I mean, even in the most charitable possible reading that isn't something comically contrived ("Penny, help, there's a poisonous spider stuck in my bow-tie!") he'd either stopped resisting Penny's advances or was resisting so feebly that it hardly matters. We knew he was feeling some mixed up feelings with her and her mother and he did leave the door open but besides the dramatic visual reason to do that he might've just been so beaten he didn't care to close the door. I wonder, was there any possible chance for talking that out? Could that situation have ended any way other than Charlotte furiously telling Bojack to get out immediately? In some alternate universe where things don't always go the worst way, starting from the moment Charlotte caught Penny and Bojack, could anything have been done differently? I feel like Bojack running in the night is going to send Kyle the worst message about what happened, and it's going to be a nightmare of a time for Charlotte to talk this out with Penny just the two of them while hiding it from the rest of the family. It's depressingly unlikely that Charlotte and Penny will be able to address their issues head-on. Bojack definitely had to go and the heat of the moment absolutely validates throwing him out on the spot, it's just a pity that he's so toxic that an honest conversation about everything that'd happened that night between the three of them was so unlikely and probably wouldn't be able to help. Dolash fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jul 21, 2015 |
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Jul 21, 2015 19:10
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Does anyone know the name of the song that plays at the end of episode 10 "Yes and"? Both the songs were quoted earlier and they're great. Got them stuck in my head for days now. Party Plane Jones posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAlMPDFIRJQ Space Cadet Omoly posted:Anyway, Last season I felt like Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter were destined for a speedy divorce, but this season really made it seem like they actually stand a chance. Maybe you can't have two zelda's or two zoe's, maybe you need a Zoe to make sure that the Zelda stays grounded and a Zelda to make sure the Zoe doesn't get crushed under the weight of her own pessimism. Or maybe the whole Zoey/Zelda thing is meaningless and Buzzfeed is stupid. I agree that I assumed those two wouldn't last, and things were looking rough at the start of the season. I think going on the Cordovia trip was absolutely critical for Diane to at least try and do the kind of work she dreamed about, or else she'd be wondering about what could've been forever. Once she tried it and found it wasn't for her though, her angst wasn't about her work, it was about Mr. Peanutbutter and what he'd think after everything she'd put him through if she came back a failure. We won't get more detail about exactly where the two stand now and whether Diane told Mr. Peanutbutter the whole story, but the big takeaway seemed to be that they'd both realized the other was what was really important to them. Of course they'll need a new drama, but I hope it isn't just work-related. Diane might be more happy doing shallow Hollywoo writing jobs now if she's decided her marriage is what's important to her. Maybe having kids? She's 35, and I think Mr. Peanutbutter's the same age as Bojack - if they ever wanted to have kids they'd pretty much have to get on that quick.
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Jul 22, 2015 07:38
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Toxxupation posted:i finished bojack horseman season 2 I think we need the comedy, and not just as comic relief - it's an integral part of that dark, nihilistic tone. I mean, your mileage may vary with the puns and pop-culture references although they do seem to net a fair bit of praise, but comedy and absurdity is a key part of depression. Many of the best comics have suffered from severe depression because comedy is an extremely effective coping mechanism, and tone-wise a show that can go from making silly celebrity gossip jokes like everything's fine to taking a sharp turn into serious issues captures that dynamic. If the show was nothing but the grueling moments one after another people wouldn't watch, couldn't watch, but just like in real life it's the comedy that gets them through. Maybe it's the specific bits you don't like, and like I said your mileage may vary. I thought the Doctor Hu/Who joke was funny, not in a laugh-out-loud way just to reinforce the general absurdity of the world. Part of the humor and appeal of Bojack is he sometimes comes off as the only sane man, like being the only one who can tell Princess Carolyn is dating three kids standing on each other's shoulders in a trench coat or the only one who apparently cares that the guy Wanda met is a Soviet sleeper-agent. It contributes to the tone and Bojack's isolation.
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Jul 23, 2015 06:43
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Actually, I'd like to keep going on this. The "hey, smile" thing didn't seem like a joke to me - I certainly didn't grin, it wasn't a punchline (beyond that it was a line delivered like a punch), my reaction was pretty much the same depressed resignation that Diane had. What did make me laugh was Hank Hippopotamus's Hip-Hop Hypothesis, and while I grant you that there are shows that are nothing but tragedy and dark character revelation, I don't watch those shows. I can't watch them, and much as I said "your mileage may vary" about the puns and pop culture I think I'm in the same boat as a lot of people - we're watching Bojack and not as many of those other shows because the silly comedy draws you in and the tragedy is a sucker-punch. And I'd like to reiterate that the silly comedy is an important partner to complete the depression experience. You're right that you don't have to "cut" it, I think they work together rather than breaking up the tone because a manic-depressive cycle has a lot more vitality to it. It lets the darker stuff creep up on you, lets you hope that maybe things are going to ride out fine and upbeat. You can't achieve that with only dark comedy that matches the tone of the dark drama bits. Again, it puts me in mind of someone like Robin Williams, whose comedy is full of rapid-fire goofiness and clowning around that masked some very real issues but also made him very compelling.
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Jul 24, 2015 00:27
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Schurik posted:This show is basically Californication with cartoon animals and actually good writing. We'll need an animal pun.
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Jul 25, 2015 19:26
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Season 3 finished! Now forgive me, please, as I engage in my annual post-binge-watch purge of Bojack-related thoughts! I was actually a little surprised they went back to Penny during the now-customary Episode 11 Disaster - it obviously couldn't have the same punch as the original, self-contained horror story. Which I guess is kind of the point? She'd moved on, there was no need to revisit that episode of her life/the show, the whole road-trip was yet another Bojack desperation play for catharsis and forgiveness even if nobody wants to see it. Even so, it's starting to seem like they feel obligated to try and make episode 11 some mind-trip now. I found I enjoyed the underwater episode more for how much more fun they seemed to be having with it. The 2007 flashbacks were also fun for the same "poo poo, is that a distinct setting now?" reasons everyone mentioned. The supporting cast is feeling a little directionless and increasingly detached from Bojack or any unifying story. Xanderkish had an excellent post about Bojack being trapped in his depression cycle by the needs of the TV format and his conflict being the central narrative force of the show, but I actually think it's his friends where this problem is more evident, since they basically aren't allowed to escape his orbit even if they keep getting reasons to or have opportunities to succeed. They acknowledge this when Princess Carolyn's cast-off antagonists are shown to be having their own story, where they've changed and eventually overcome their obstacles. Basically, the surest sign of the show ending would be people like Diane learning from Bojack's example and getting out of their misery cycle before they're in too deep. In the meantime, Diane feels like a loose thread compared to her clear, important role in season one. The conflict in her relationship with Mr. Peanutbutter just sort of lingers so they can keep it going with another ham-handed setup for next season. Mr. Peanutbutter and Todd still delivered much-needed slapstick but they don't really hold up stories on their own very well, Mr. Peanutbutter's brother didn't add much and while Todd building a business and confronting his feelings on an old relationship was promising they very deliberately reasserted the status quo and he'll probably be sleeping on Bojack's couch again. Princess Carolyn is of course doomed to self-sabotage even if she can keep Bojack out of her life (season 4 spoiler: she won't) which is frustrating. How many more times must Todd be betrayed by Bojack and stand up to him to give him the straight scoop? Or Princess Carolyn decide she can make it on her own without him then have everything fall apart? Will they split Diane and Mr. Peanutbutter up or just keep that question up in the air forever? I think this season confirmed there really is no redemption at the end of the tunnel for Bojack - not that it's a surprise, but still. His hopeless cycle may be very realistic when it comes to depression but it's making it hard to invest in where he's going the longer the series goes on because it's more obvious he's going nowhere. The final scene of season one already made that point about Bojack, and while season two wasn't as strong at least it was clear what its' final scene was getting at. Bojack stopping to watch the horses run didn't really communicate much aside from ending on an interesting visual, and promises to have as much impact on Bojack as the jogging baboon's words from last season had on him this season. I don't know how much his friends know about how Sarah died, the last episode oddly didn't focus a lot on her death, he's got this unforgivable sin pile growing that feel like if they came to light people would blacklist him. At this point even heroic sacrifice wouldn't cut it, the Aryan Brotherhood could come looking for Todd again and Bojack could die heroically so Todd could escape and it'd still just seem like him jumping on a way out. This ends with Bojack dying, with the only question being how much damage he does to others on the way, and the truth about Bojack shocking his friends out of his orbit and their own arrested development might be the only thing the show hasn't explored yet. There doesn't seem to be any room left for some sort of positive message or sliver of hope concerning Bojack himself, he juuuust barely managed to not destroy that little girl's life like he did Sarah's by screwing Bradley again. The takeaway is increasingly becoming that if Bojack wants to help people the surest way would be killing himself. So, after all that, I'm pretty eh about the prospect of a new season. The show was definitely designed with a single, very coherent, carefully staged story in mind and each season after that seems to have less of an idea of what it wants to do. The pop-culture referencing is still clever, the comedy and writing is sharp, but overall it feels like it's losing focus. Even the timeline feels like it's getting more erratic, episode 11 might've been all about blacking out but the scenes in 12 just felt disconnected. The end of season one left questions to be answered and season two introduced new wrinkles, but now the setting up for a new season is becoming too heavy-handed - Mr. Peanutbutter might as well have turned to the camera and said "Mr. Peanutbutter... for Governor?!" when that happened, and I'm not intrigued to see how Bojack reacts to learning about his daughter so much as I am desperately hoping they never meet. Penny's already doomed to have Bojack on the periphery from now on, unless Charlotte really does kill him. He figuratively and literally ran out of road this season. Also I am amazed there was never a reveal that Ana murdered that reporter Bojack confessed his digital replacement to. Maybe they're saving that for next season? Ana came off as more than a little unhinged throughout and I thought that little accidental setup he walked into with the "Bojack kills!" stuff was sort of a fakeout for what was going to come up later. Maybe trying to push the "Hollywoo is brutal" theme that far wouldn't have been grounded enough for the season's big emotional finale, the drug overdose death of someone close to Bojack is a little more real. And hey, Bojack killed after all. Ahhhh, I feel much better! Thank you for the use of your thread! Now, to linger a few days to let the show work its way through my head before pushing it all out until next year! For those who understandably don't want to engage that massive black block, tl;dr: Man critiques narrative minutia for seven paragraphs at 5 AM to avoid confronting uncomfortable thoughts stirred up by Netfilx Original Series.
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Jul 24, 2016 13:00
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It was pretty much immediately confirmed she existed when during the abortion episode Bojack speculated he might have a kid if one of the women whose abortion he paid for didn't go through with it. Soon as he said that I knew he was going to have a kid. To be honest, from the first episode of the series you could look at Bojack and guess that yeah, there's a decent chance he had a kid he doesn't know about just from the life he'd lead. I can't agree with speculation that maybe he could be happy as a father or he should try to connect with her, though - if he's learned anything at all (he hasn't) it should be to keep his very real poison away from people for their own good, rather than using them as a way to try and make himself happy. It's basically the same situation as when he met the child actress for Ethan Around and realized he might push her right down the same path and bailed. The solution isn't "this time, I'll do better!" because there is no evidence Bojack can do better, the whole "make amends" tour that made everything worse proved that very thoroughly. But Bojack can't stop himself so I assume next season will heavily involve him thinking being a father will fix him, he'll be terrible at it and then come episode 11 either destroy her life or maybe realize just in time that that's what he's doing and sever to contain the damage. After traumatizing Penny and killing Sarah there's a zero percent chance he gets it right on the third daughter figure, nor does the fact that she just happens to be his biological daughter mean he's entitled to such a relationship. On the topic of potential season four plots, does Bojack have any kind of big career thread coming up? Season one was the book, season two was Secretariat and season three was winning an Oscar (which felt like it was cut a little short), but I got the impression he'd completely backed out of Ethan Around so I don't know if he actually has anything else going on.
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Jul 24, 2016 19:48
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NecroMonster posted:BoJack is actually incredibly close to the realization that could set him free from his cycle of depression and destruction, he's been close to it the whole time. Secretariat didn't really give him the wrong advice. The mistake BoJack makes isn't "running", it's the reasons he "runs". I'm pretty sure the show's made the point that there is no magic silver bullet realization that will fix him, or maybe anyone. He gets good advice all the time that sloughs off and he himself has frequent moments of clarity about what's wrong with him, it's just not enough. He's not just waiting for the right rephrasing of how he needs to live to be set free.
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Jul 24, 2016 20:55
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Iron Crowned posted:To be honest, it's only heavily implied, we are making an assumption about that, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if we're wrong about it. All I know is we're going to get punched in the feels hard by it at some point. Aw c'mon, it's a teenage girl horse with the same coat pattern as him after a mid-season foreshadow where he all but looks into the camera to say "Oh gee I wonder if any of the girls I got pregnant had the kid?" I suppose it could turn out a paternity test reveals he's not the father as some kind of twist, or maybe it's sort of a Jill Pill style hint that won't amount to much in the new season, but the implication they're making is obvious.
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Jul 24, 2016 23:43
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Tuxedo Ted posted:To be honest, when Cpt. Peanutbutter started talking about how their most valuable resource was life, I was almost afraid he was going to be one of those Quiverfull types. My first reaction, and I think Diane's, was that he was pro-life and Mr. Peanutbutter was hiding the abortion from him. It seemed like a setup for a typical Diane-Peanutbutter-marriage-strainer situation where Diane can't help but engage Captain Peanutbutter on pro-life rhetoric or keeps pestering Mr. Peanutbutter to tell his brother the truth only to accidentally let slip the abortion and cause a rift between the Peanutbutters. I'm glad with the direction it went though, since the show could use more examples of what works about their relationship and Diane was right in the end to press Mr. Peanutbutter to confront an uncomfortable situation instead of living in denial.
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Jul 25, 2016 18:06
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I'm no expert in Hollywoo but wouldn't Bojack make a terrible director due to how much of the job is management and putting out fires? As a full-time diva who's too quick to make commitments and just as quick to back out of them, he doesn't really have the necessary diplomatic skills. If you could take Bojack's talents and give him Princess Carolyn's drive and organizational skills, maybe that'd make a good director. Also curious if Todd'll keep living in Bojack's house. Things seemed much more resolved with Emily and she actually held onto her 8 million and would probably be very sympathetic if he wants to get away from Bojack for a while. He could end up sleeping on the couch at whatever new little mansion she picks out for herself. Failing that he could end up working for Mr. Peanutbutter's campaign, PB'd be almost sure to let Todd crash at his place. It'd be neat to see how many episodes it'd take before Bojack even realizes Todd's not living with him anymore.
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Jul 25, 2016 23:28
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I think this might tie back in to what people were suggesting earlier in the thread, of doing an episode completely without Bojack, even doing the opening without him in it. The thing is Bojack's already had several stretches of disappearing from everyone's life, we just stuck with him during them - the New Mexico incident and the Lynn binge were both months-long, and the rest of the cast appears to have just carried on in the meantime. They're not necessarily waiting for a month without Bojack for the scales to fall from their eyes about how much of a bad influence he is. Still, it might be an interesting direction, the only issue I see is it might lead to a sort of unfocused story like this last season where different main characters didn't intersect as much and things didn't quite so clearly build to a single climax. If they want to split up Bojack and his supporting cast they should have a clear goal behind doing so and still tie everyone's arc together somehow. Also on Bojack and Diane, possibly the only thing close to development for Bojack is they don't seem to be at risk of sleeping together. I don't think there was ever a point where Diane seemed like she was falling for him, like when Charlotte kissed Bojack and then had to ask him to leave - even at her lowest point when she crashed on his couch for four months hiding from Mr. Peanutbutter, their relationship was just two bummed out people dragging each other down. There was that bit this season where one of her old friends asked her why she went to him instead of one of her other friends and she dodged the issue, but I think that's as simple as all her other friends would've pushed her to do the right thing whereas she knew staying with Bojack would let her wallow in her misery. Despite being a core element of season one I don't know if Diane and Bojack's unhealthy friendship will continue being all that important, considering how muted it was this season.
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Jul 29, 2016 21:59
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Data Graham posted:As fun as it is to see Mr. Peanutbutter being Mr. Peanutbutter, all irrepressible goofball labrador retriever, some of the most interesting moments of S3 were where he started to let things get to him. Seeing him break façade and actually get mad (whether at Diane, Bojack, his brother's spleen, or who knows what else) feels like something that's been teased more and more as the show has gone on, and his story's got to be building to something pretty big. I actually quite like Mr. Peanutbutter and Diane's relationship and the work they're doing on it. Mr. Peanutbutter really is good for Diane, despite what her nagging anxieties or the occasional person trying to manipulate her might say, basically for all the reasons she came up with while she was on drugs. Obviously he's not perfect and maybe he's never going to "get it", but he's immensely loving and supportive and wants the best for her as much as he can understand what she's going through. It was even nice to see some of what made Diane good for Mr. Peanutbutter when she encouraged him to talk to his brother - more of Diane pressing Mr. Peanutbutter not to live in happy denial would be great. Their struggles are very believable and it's nice to see a couple in a show actually work at it rather than being perfect or an obvious complete disaster. Unfortunately, he also plays directly into Diane's chief conflict between her personal happiness and need to do something meaningful with her life. I agree with Captain Lavender's point about Bojack having some appeal for Diane because of his introspectiveness and how he understands failure and misery. I might even say Diane's the main cast member who's most like Bojack despite their slate of other differences because they have a shared character flaw of their need for validation and meaning leaving them constantly unhappy. These similarities underpinned their relationship and its importance in season one, and Diane running away to do the Bojack thing of hiding from her mistakes in season two underlined the point. This season though she made some progress on her relationship and mostly stayed out of Bojack's life and Bojack-style misery, so I think it's possible for her to crawl out of the hole, but everything set up about next season threatens to drag her down again. Bojack even managed to encourage her "worse" impulses by encouraging her better ones, saying she was too good to waste her talents on celebrity social media which will ultimately push her back into "meaningful work" which will just hurt her. Any kind of "romantic" relationship between Diane and Bojack would probably be at the end of a failure spiral where she drives away Mr. Peanutbutter and fails to do work that satisfies her. Basically the same impulse that drove her in season 2 taken to its logical end where she figures she can't do any better and is a chronic self-saboteur, so she might as well shack up with a fellow failure and give up. I could see a series ending where Diane hits rock bottom but snaps out of it after seeing how Bojack ends up (spoiler alert: not well) and learns how to move on with her life rather than wallowing in her mistakes forever. Dolash fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jul 31, 2016 |
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Jul 31, 2016 03:23
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There's a lot to love in this show. I especially enjoyed how much of a recurring cast it built up, so many minor characters reappear in so many fun ways. The sequence in the final episode revisiting almost everyone ordering from Sweet Beak was excellent. On a side note, it was kind of interesting they generally made a point to show people hadn't been killed by things that might've killed them, like the delivery guy who was mauled by the jaguar. Despite how surreal and absurd the world is, they seem to generally hang back from making it a place where people are casually killed - the closest example I can remember is the old person tripping at the mall and becoming a kiosk. I'm interested to see if Bertie and Speckle's relationship will work out. It actually feels like it's a better sign that the show's sitting with the consequences instead of letting them paper it over like nothing happened. It's both more realistic and gives them something to work on in another season rather than just repeating the same cycle of crisis. Also, did Speckle commanding the jaguar seem odd to anyone? It kinda felt like it was meant to set something up, or was maybe paying something from earlier off, but I don't know what. Especially that little bit afterward where they discussed how he suddenly manifested it seemed meant to link it to another scene.
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May 19, 2019 07:57
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