Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«23 »
  • Locked thread
ThNextGreenLantern
Feb 13, 2012


Rochallor posted:

We've also established that anti-radiation medicine exists, so if the soldiers don't have any already, the Doctor could just pop into the TARDIS and get some from somewhere.

Not to mention the Tenth Doctor absorbed radiation on two nonconsecutive occasions! "Oh, Doctor," I'd say, "That radiation'll be the death of you."

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Jurgan
May 8, 2007

Just pour it directly into your gaping mouth-hole you decadent slut


Autonomous Monster posted:

That scene where the Doctor's sealing the crack in the power cells made me laugh. Oh, hey, look- it's a bloody great crack spewing radiation all over the room- I'll stick my head right over that, get a good dose going, yeah?

Oh, look, the Doctor is fighting a giant crack in the wall! Yeah, that better not mean what it looks like.

Chokes McGee
Aug 7, 2008

A Good Day to
ACTION DUCK


In all seriousness, can I make a comment about the Doctor having a soldier swallow a tracker with him thinking it would save him? Because holy poo poo, that was cold (and also awesome).

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Clear off, fatso, this is a respectable establishment





Fallen Rib

It's not like it scared the poor guy or made his death any worse. It was one of the few moments this week I really liked. Something about the episode felt rushed or ragged - a lot of dialogue delivered without the person speaking being on screen so it felt like ADR. I don't know. I liked the episode better when it was 'Dalek'.

Cliff Racer
Mar 24, 2007

by Lowtax


Chokes McGee posted:

Why would we need them?

Unless you want me to get... the memory worm

Because, the Daleks are so nasty, right grandpa?

I wasn't a huge fan of this episode for most of the little nit-picky reasons that others listed. However I have a new complaint to add to the pile. They could have easily used dead guy's line to get back up to the top of the Dalek, it would have been, to me anyway, an interesting situation and one where they were put in a position of being lucky that someone disobeyed the Doctor. It also would have been a clever call-back to earlier in the episode, etc. Maybe that was in the first draft but they changed it so they could give Missy a corpse? That is going to get really old if it happens every episode.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider



Cliff Racer posted:

I wasn't a huge fan of this episode for most of the little nit-picky reasons that others listed. However I have a new complaint to add to the pile. They could have easily used dead guy's line to get back up to the top of the Dalek, it would have been, to me anyway, an interesting situation and one where they were put in a position of being lucky that someone disobeyed the Doctor. It also would have been a clever call-back to earlier in the episode, etc. Maybe that was in the first draft but they changed it so they could give Missy a corpse? That is going to get really old if it happens every episode.

If they needed to give Missy a corpse, surely they could have just sent the first guy?

I think they just wanted the "brave soldier sacrifices self for the greater good" scene. Which is funny, because the Doctor barely has the semblance of a plan and it goes to poo poo anyway.

Tikifire
Jun 22, 2006

Would you like to touch my monkey?

I thought the ep was great! Loving Capaldi so far. I'm just waiting for some Venusian Akido.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider



Shugojin posted:

I think it was mostly better than Dalek. Also I think the "you are a good Dalek" line has a different tone. It's similar, but in context it has a different meaning - instead of "you would do a really good job as a Dalek" it's more "you are what you get if a Dalek has a sense of good and evil".

DoctorWhat posted:

Browsing Tumblr right after it aired, it distressed me terribly how many people totally missed the distinction.

Alright, I need to go to bed, but I thought I'd address this while it's still fresh in my mind.

You could read the line this way, but it's not necessarily wrong to read it the other way, either. There's nothing in that scene that suggests that the Dalek has actually acquired a conscience, judged its comrades and found them worthy of extermination. All it says is that it finds the Doctor's hate beautiful- divinely so, in fact. It's entirely plausible (to me, at least) that the Dalek flipped because it looked on that hate and decided that it needed to get in on that. Or even that it finds the Doctor's hate so pure that it comes to see the Daleks as impure by comparison- Doctor as Dalek Emperor.

Honestly, there's no reason that the line couldn't be doing both simultaneously- and I think the episode is stronger for it.

HopperUK posted:

I liked the episode better when it was 'Dalek'.

And this, why the gently caress not.

The reason it doesn't bother me that this episode retreads a lot of well-travelled ground is... ...Dalek is kiiiinda ropey on rewatch. The central scenes with Eccleston are, yes, utterly brilliant, but everything around it is pissweak- the side characters, the set dressing- even the action pales in comparison to what we had tonight. The entrepreneur character is especially bad, and very nearly ruined the whole thing for me the first time around.

Doctor What may well be right that Dalek is irreplaceable and the only possible story that could have introduced the creatures to the revival, but it's nowhere near the best possible version of itself. And I'm a sucker for taking something that didn't work or failed to live up to its potential and trying to perfect it.

(Which is probably why I am actually hoping that Missy is the Rani)

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Clear off, fatso, this is a respectable establishment





Fallen Rib

Autonomous Monster posted:

Doctor What may well be right that Dalek is irreplaceable and the only possible story that could have introduced the creatures to the revival, but it's nowhere near the best possible version of itself. And I'm a sucker for taking something that didn't work or failed to live up to its potential and trying to perfect it.

(Which is probably why I am actually hoping that Missy is the Rani)

Fair enough! I think I'm suffering from Dalek fatigue.

Big Mean Jerk
Jan 27, 2009

MENTALLY
DEFEATED


Grimey Drawer

After last week, I'll take any episode that doesn't make me feel ashamed to watch the show. I thought this was solid. I like how generally soft-spoken and reserved 12 is. It really makes his actual meltdowns stand out.

Ensign_Ricky
Jan 4, 2008

Daddy Warlord
of the
Children of the Corn


or something...


Great episode, and to honor it, Big Finish is offering the entire Dalek Empire I as a bundle for only 10 bucks!

Verdugo
Jan 5, 2009


Lipstick Apathy

Diabolik900 posted:

I don't know that she's necessarily The Rani, but it seems plausible that she's a Time Lord. There's a definite similarity between the way she's grabbed people who seem to be dead and the way The Doctor did it at the beginning of this episode.

Missy is short for Mistress. So obviously, she's the Master, regenerated as a female -- added bonus of "See! We can have a female timelord instead of a white dude." for Moffatt.

Astroman
Apr 8, 2001



Excellent episode. Capaldi was even better then last week, and I can't get over how Clara is so much better written! The Dalek battle was properly epic, both in space (looked like ) and in the ship. Solid start so far!

To clarify on something we were discussing pre-episode,

MrL_JaKiri posted:

Anyway short version: Whoever it was that picked out Peri, Jack and SJS as people "abandoned" by the Doctor picked out 3 terrible examples. Peri he was trying to save when he was dragged away by the time lords, Jack was already dead and SJS was dropped off safely in GB.

The point is after those events you'd think he'd have gone back and saved them. With Peri, he just accepted the Time Lords' explanation of "Peri must go now, her new home planet of Krontep needs her" when he could easily just have popped back and picked her up and asked "so do you really want to stay with this guy?" (a fate worse than death, according to some Time Lords).

Jack was dead, but he told Rose "Jack's fine, he's off saving the universe" and later reveals he just left Jack because he was weirded out.

And with Sarah Jane there was no legitimate reason he didn't come back after his Gallifrey adventure was over.

Speaking of old companions, I wonder if there's any chance in hell since Coal Hill School is apparently such a major setting if the school's Chairman of the Board of Governors will make an appearance.

Hollismason
Jun 30, 2007

Goodness no, now that wouldn't do at all!


I really dig Capaldi this episode for me was great. I don't really see the complaints honestly it was a really great episode.

What do you see?

I see hatred.

Also, I think the Doctor struggling with his morality at this point is a brilliant idea and Clara being a teacher is a perfect reason why she's there, she's there to teach the Doctor that he can be a good person which is better than him lamenting over how he's such a bad person. It's a better job than Tenant did.

Hollismason fucked around with this message at Aug 31, 2014 around 03:54

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Autonomous Monster posted:

The reason it doesn't bother me that this episode retreads a lot of well-travelled ground is... ...Dalek is kiiiinda ropey on rewatch. The central scenes with Eccleston are, yes, utterly brilliant, but everything around it is pissweak- the side characters, the set dressing- even the action pales in comparison to what we had tonight. The entrepreneur character is especially bad, and very nearly ruined the whole thing for me the first time around.

Agreed. The good bits are so good that they're all most people think of (myself included) but when you rewatch it, so much of the stuff AROUND the Dalek and the Doctor is really awful. This take on a similar story isn't perfect by any means, but it feels in general like there is just a higher standard to EVERY scene. Of course, for me nothing will ever quite match the chill I got seeing that eye light up in the dark and that voice start screeching when I first watched Dalek, mostly because it was 17 years since the last proper* Daleks had appeared in an episode of Doctor Who

The adorably squeaky off-screen Daleks in the TV movie don't count

thexerox123
Aug 17, 2007



DoctorWhat posted:

Not as good as Jubilee but I think it might be better than Dalek.

More action!
More excitement!
More Daleks getting killed in very loud explosions!

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


thexerox123 posted:

More action!
More excitement!
More Daleks getting killed in very loud explosions!

It didn't come across in the final edit, but in the script "Rusty" decides to go on that killing spree because the other Daleks are singing a song.

TL
Jan 16, 2006

Yeah, it is. Isn't it?

Bowties are cool.

That was a great loving episode. A few things I'm looking forward to:

1. After the sacrifice she made, I really hope we get to see the Doctor do something amazing in honor of Gretchen.

2. Given the Doctor's lack of acceptance for soldiers, his inevitable interactions with Danny are something I am very much looking forward to. Plus, you know Clara will eventually throw the Doctor's involvement in the Time War back in his face.

I really can't say enough good things about Peter Capaldi so far. He's taking the character in a very different direction while still making him clearly the Doctor. And Jenna Coleman is doing great work so far too. This was a lot of fun to watch.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




Capaldi's schnoz was really on display this episode.

Jurgan
May 8, 2007

Just pour it directly into your gaping mouth-hole you decadent slut


Jurgan posted:

Oh, look, the Doctor is fighting a giant crack in the wall! Yeah, that better not mean what it looks like.

No one responded to this, so I'm just going to ask directly: they're not really bringing back the crack in the universe, are they?

Also, I've liked both episodes so far (though they probably should have cut the dinosaur out of Deep Breath). In two episodes, Clara has shown more clear personality than in half a season.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




All too often, stupid humans doing stupid things drive the conflict in each episode, but they never realize the error of their ways, at least not on screen. That has always frustrated me.

AndwhatIseeisme
Mar 30, 2010

Being alive is pretty much a constant stream of embarrassment.


Fun Shoe

Great episode all around, Capaldi is amazing so far and it's great that the writers finally managed to give Clara a personality. The cold open in particular had so many great lines from Capaldi that the rest of the episode could have been Love and Monsters and I would still walk away happy.

Josh Lyman
May 24, 2009




1) I really hope we never see the soldier girl again.

2) "I am not a good dalek. YOU are a good dalek."

PassTheRemote
Mar 15, 2007

Number 6 holds The Village record in Duck Hunt.

The first one to kill wins.

I need a gif of the Doctor kicking open the TARDIS door.

This episode made me love Capaldi's Doctor. It feels like Hartnell by way of Pertwee. One of me favorite quotes from the episode "[Clara] cares so I don't have to".

This ep was fantastic. I really liked the chemistry between Coleman and Capaldi. Clara is becoming a better and more three dimensional character.

And also this:

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


PassTheRemote posted:

I need a gif of the Doctor kicking open the TARDIS door.

Done and added in with the others.

Jet Jaguar
Feb 12, 2006

Don't touch my bags if you please, Mr. Customs Man.



Biscuit Hider

I thought this was a better effort than the last episode, though my wife wasn't terribly fond of it.

The interior defense mechanisms didn't really make much sense. How many miniaturized people crawl around inside Daleks on a routine basis that they needed to create antibodies and a goo pool to deal with the refuse?

Still waiting for the New Who version of the Heavy Weapons Dalek.

Linear Zoetrope
Nov 28, 2011

A hero must cook

Jerusalem posted:

Done and added in with the others.



I can't wait for The Doctor's Wife Pt II where they enter marriage counseling for how Capaldi has been kicking her.

NowonSA
Jul 19, 2013

I am the sexiest poster in the world!


Jerusalem posted:

Done and added in with the others.



My favorite thing about this is that they must have taken the standard Tardis set, set up the fake walls and closet stuff in front of it, and then taken the shot right into it from there, and then they do the same thing when Clara exits the Tardis at the end of the episode. It's refreshing to see practical solutions and techniques when so many things, in both T.V. and film, are done via green screens and special effects.

J-Ru, please dig out a gif of the Doctor walking into a green screen'd Tardis so we can see the comparison. Or don't, it probably looks even good even then and I'm just nitpicking.

Fil5000
Jun 23, 2003

HOLD ON GUYS I'M POSTING ABOUT INTERNET ROBOTS


Jet Jaguar posted:

Still waiting for the New Who version of the Heavy Weapons Dalek.

If they make a new special weapons dalek they'd also need to make five minutes of Keff McCulloch inspired synth music to accompany it being deployed. It just won't be the same without a billion Orchestra Stabs.

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

How does it taste?

Dinosaur Gum

So...one question, weren't all the Time War style Daleks killed off by the New Paradigm ones? What was the point of Victory of the Daleks explicitly introducing the new Dalek redesign if we're just gonna keep trotting out the old ones? It made sense in Day of the Doctor, since we were in the Time War, but we keep seeing the wrong Daleks...

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


jivjov posted:

So...one question, weren't all the Time War style Daleks killed off by the New Paradigm ones? What was the point of Victory of the Daleks explicitly introducing the new Dalek redesign if we're just gonna keep trotting out the old ones? It made sense in Day of the Doctor, since we were in the Time War, but we keep seeing the wrong Daleks...

The new daleks are shite and everyone has realised it

jivjov
Sep 13, 2007

How does it taste?

Dinosaur Gum

MrL_JaKiri posted:

The new daleks are shite and everyone has realised it

How so? I thought they were pretty awesome, what with the clearly delineated roles and the like. Also they're HUGE! And the human-like eyeball inside the stalk was some great body-horror.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Gaz-L posted:

Yeah, it's weird seeing Michael Smiley in such a straight role.

Go watch a film called Outpost. Thematically related to the daleks!

Trin Tragula posted:

And then by being more serious it invites me to care about things like e.g. what the gently caress happened to all that radiation that was driving their Geiger counters off the scale?

And that's for a normal-sized human.

But yeah, if you're going to be all serious and po-faced about a story and act like you're making serious points about anything, you need to have this kind of poo poo shipshape and Bristol fashion. Genesis understood that much, at least.

If they're shrunk they'll be less susceptible surely - same amount of person just made smaller. If they're 0.1% of the size and they need the same absolute dose to damage them then the fact they're only hit by 0.1% of the radiation they would be if they were normal size has a huge effect.

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


jivjov posted:

How so? I thought they were pretty awesome, what with the clearly delineated roles and the like. Also they're HUGE! And the human-like eyeball inside the stalk was some great body-horror.

They looked like childrens toy versions of the daleks, and had a disturbing amount of badonkadonk

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEe_eraFWWs to quote Tenth Doctor the musical

Wheezle
Aug 13, 2007

420 stop boats erryday



Seriously. Who looks at that and goes "yes, that looks like a great update to the iconic Dalek design"?

Mulva
Sep 13, 2011

DON'T LET THIS PICTURE OF AN ADORABLE KITTEN FOOL YOU INTO THINKING I'M NOT AN INSUFFERABLE AUTIST

Jet Jaguar posted:

The interior defense mechanisms didn't really make much sense. How many miniaturized people crawl around inside Daleks on a routine basis that they needed to create antibodies and a goo pool to deal with the refuse?

I don't know, how many people crawl around inside you that you have the same things?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


jivjov posted:

So...one question, weren't all the Time War style Daleks killed off by the New Paradigm ones? What was the point of Victory of the Daleks explicitly introducing the new Dalek redesign if we're just gonna keep trotting out the old ones? It made sense in Day of the Doctor, since we were in the Time War, but we keep seeing the wrong Daleks...

The rewrote it so that those big Daleks were like the new supreme council or whatever, but were producing their own Dalek-soldiers with the previous models. Then gradually just stopped using the new ones entirely because:

MrL_JaKiri posted:

The new daleks are shite and everyone has realised it

I guess technically you could argue that somewhere tucked away on New Skaro or a tucked away heavily fortified spaceship or something those Daleks are still around safeguarding Dalek genetic purity in the event of a catastrophe or something. But really, once again, the answer is because:

MrL_JaKiri posted:

The new daleks are shite and everyone has realised it

fist4jesus
Nov 24, 2002


Wheezle posted:

Seriously. Who looks at that and goes "yes, that looks like a great update to the iconic Dalek design"?

Todays dwarves are too fat to fit inside the originals.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

SiKboy
Oct 28, 2007
Simaggeddon



MrL_JaKiri posted:

Go watch a film called Outpost. Thematically related to the daleks!


If they're shrunk they'll be less susceptible surely - same amount of person just made smaller. If they're 0.1% of the size and they need the same absolute dose to damage them then the fact they're only hit by 0.1% of the radiation they would be if they were normal size has a huge effect.


Of course, this is a sci-fi show, so I'm perfectly happy to accept that "Yeah, we fixed the radiation off screen with anti-radiation pills", but if we want to apply some actual science....

Damage to tissue from radiation depends on a number of factors. Your Absorbed Dose is the energy absorbed divided by the mass of absorbing tissue (Measured in Greys). Higher numbers = worse. Now, this is a piss-poor measure of how dangerous the radation will be to a living being, so we then multiply Absorbed Dose by a radiation weighting factor (or Quality factor) depending on the type of radiation to give the "Equivalent Dose" (in Sieverts, or more usually milliSieverts). A dose of 0.1 Sieverts will increase yoru cancer risk, a dose of 2 Sv may be fatal, and with current technology 8 Sv will kill you, nothing we can do about it. Now, even this isnt a complete calculation of risk, because radiation absorbed by the skin will obviously have a different risk than radation absorbed by the brain or the bones.

So, short form; poo poo is complicated, but assuming that when they were shrunk they lost mass as well (seems reasonable as there were 5 people standing in essentially the same place and the dalek didnt tip over) and bearing in mind the square-cube law (the volume of tissue decreases faster than the surface area when you make something smaller) then their danger from radiation has drastically increased. D = E/M, and while being smaller will have decreased the energy absorbed, the mass will have decreased more, leading to a higher Absorbed Dose, giving us a higher Equivalent Dose.

If their mass hasnt decreased with their size then they are in less danger, but on the other hand at that point they could fight the daleks by reducing the size of the soldiers and dropping on them as all their mass will be focussed on a tiny area.


Like I say, I dont tend to let things like that bother me in a sci fi show (although the last Die Hard movie...), I was more taken out of it by them using "rad" as a unit as opposed to "Greys". As they are neither in the 1960s or American then they should be using the SI unit. It was as if they were describing distances in Furlongs or chains. It can be interesting to apply actual science to this kind o fthimn got thing about what woud actually happen in similar situation.

  • Locked thread
«23 »