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Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



I have no idea what this is. I'm in.

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Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Mage Knight is not a good game, it's crushed under the weight. The best boardgame is Camel Up, because it plays in 20 minutes with 2-8 players and it's loving hilarious.

Confirming, by the way.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Mr. Maltose posted:

Chvatil is also the dude who made Space Alert, which according to the Board Games thread is the greatest thing in boardgames since they invented cardboard. So he's got that going for him.

Reiner Knizia designed Tigris and Euphrates, which according to BGG is a great game, but he gets routinely panned by the same people for almost everything else he makes. Everyone can have a good day.

Me, I don't like games with excessive weight so I don't like Mage Knight. I prefer games with rules that are more streamlined and readily learned. Like this:

##vote MMM

Wants to distract us from the real meat of the game with a bunch of overcomplications? Scum for sure.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Captain Foo posted:

You can't vote at Night!

Oh, yeah, I forgot there was a Night 0. Don't normally play that way.

(I'll have to do it in the morning...)

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Meinberg posted:

I think that there is certainly some room available for setup speculation, considering the makeup of the game. We know what roles are present in the game, but we don't know what these roles actually mean. I have trouble imagining a scenario where CPig actually has a N0 investigation, given the nature of the game, though. It is possible, but I think it's more likely that CPig is taking the piss as he is prone to do.

Foo did say the setup was made more for flavour than balance. I would not rule out a Night 0 investigation. However, Pig didn't have one - or if he did, he's lying about who he used it on or about his result.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Having DNS trouble here, can't access the forums except through my phone so.my posting will not be detailed.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Juanito posted:

Literally wouldn't be a mafia D1 here if we didn't complain about Meinberg

And indeed, everyone else.

Looks like we're back to joke phase. Who restarted it?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



fiery_valkyrie posted:

Jedit, do you still stand by your opinion on MMM? I see you haven't revoted.

What opinion? It was a joke vote - not even that, really, because I made it at Night.

I'm dead serious about my opinions on Mage Knight and Vlaada Chvatil, though, and you can confirm that by looking at my posts in the Board Games thread.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Juanito posted:

Can't be sure. For some reason I'd thought you'd posted more than Winson, but I guess you have barely. Winson's latest posts have been somewhat related to the game, while yours have been offtopic.. that seems more town.

So talking about the game is scummy, but talking about nothing at all is Town? Jesus, Juanito, try to make a worse argument.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Foo: can you edit the OP to include links to the individual post histories? It might be a little late for today, but it'd be useful if you could do it over the game night.

Juanito posted:

Seven hours to deadline.

I could definitely go Cpig, don't feel great about MMM. I kinda felt like he might be vanilla, but there is no vanilla in this game, soo, seems more likely that he could be scum.

I'm really not keen on anyone who makes zero effort to defend themselves. It feels a bit insouciant, and smacks of someone who isn't going to make effort for anything even if they're Town and we let them live. I would vote MMM on that basis.

I will not vote Pig today. I'm 90% sure that he's Town at this point.

Other people who stand out to me:

Somberbrero is creeping me out with flavour attempts and I will vote for him on that basis.

We need to consider Hal. He says he's happy with his vote where it is, but he's acting open to any lynch candidate we care to put in front of him. Disassociating yourself from the lynch is scummy. If you won't own to it, don't vote it.

Meinberg I don't particularly want to lynch, but will. He's claiming setup autism as a reason for not engaging, which I can hardly complain about as I'm sometimes guilty of that myself, but in that he's acting like he knows something we don't.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Somberbrero posted:

Jedit, are you Pig's cat?

No.

##vote Somberbrero

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Somberbrero posted:

I were scum why wouldn't I push

a) Merkin, who I have been on all day and would make me look consistent

b) Hal, because he's a popular target and any serious pressure would coerce Juanito to give up more information

c) Meinberg, because Meinberg

?

You're so close to actually making an argument, just go a little further!

Your argument falls down because Pig is always a popular target - he gets lynched Day 1 more than almost anyone.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



I hadn't realised Grandi hadn't posted in so long. He's normally pretty active, isn't he?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



MildManeredManikin posted:

Go for Jedit I guess, I had a town read on him early but he hasn't really been posting much since so I've cooled on it.

I already explained that I was restricted to phone posting. My DNS got fixed, then my USB controller went tits up at half past midnight and I had to sort the drivers, then I was busy this evening. I'm here now and will be until deadline.

Somber and Juanito are definitely marching in lockstep. I really do not like Somber's game, especially since Pig predicted that he and Juanito would run together.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Somberbrero posted:

Jedit are you saying that we're scum buddies or what? That's silly. I wish I understood why you thought Capitalist's gotcha was so convincing.

I don't think the gotcha is necessarily convincing, but I know he's telling the truth about the failed investigation as one of my abilities is a partial immunity to Night Actions.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Hal Incandenza posted:

Why would I vote Jedit over Pig? Someone convince me!

A better question: why would you vote either of us over Somber? He's started flailing badly.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Somberbrero posted:

I'm trying to make sure we don't no-lynch!

Manikin, a cop can be scum or a godfather could be town, etc. Foo says that only two of these roles were locked in terms of alignment. He set the distribution and then randomly assigned the existing alignments.

That argument holds no water because you don't know what roles were locked down or why. It being nonsensical to have a scum Cop, it would make sense for that to be one of the locked down roles.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



fiery_valkyrie posted:

MMM is essentially a double voter today. So we could get a lynch on Jedit.

Do you want me to full claim?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Full claim: I am a Mason Recruiter.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Winson knows this to be true because I recruited him, and I think his "other reasons" are that he is scum and knows I'm useful.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Meinberg posted:

What's the name of your role?

I'm the Hocus - which I didn't want to say, because it's described as Cult Leader on the wiki but I'm not a Cultist. I can't be investigated because I'm insane.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



##vote Winson

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Interesting. The scum have picked off one of Somber's masonry. If we're presuming there's scum in there, the candidates are now him, Grandi, Meinberg and Winson.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Meinberg posted:

Jedit is my #1 scum candidate. I don't like the way he was reluctant to share his role's name, and the way he acted like revealing what his role was would exonerate him, in this, a game with mostly randomized alignments. There are a few roles I have in my mind that would be ideal for the set alignments, but the Hocus absolutely isn't one of them.

Which means that I have only his behavior to fall back on, and it just pings my gut as scummy.

Well, that's complete bullshit, because the Hocus absolutely is a likely candidate for set alignment. The wiki even describes the character by the name of a role that is by definition third party. That role is also impossibly dangerous, which is why I was reluctant to claim; I already explained this. Luckily for you, Foo is not stupid enough to put an investigation-proof Cult Leader with a Night 0 recruit in an 11-player game. It does, however, provide a good distraction for the scum.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



CapitalistPig posted:

I'm p sure winson is the scum.

##vote winson

I have had thoughts in that direction myself, but they were explained by confusion in the flavour surrounding my Night 0 action. Do you have anything more solid?

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



I would like the Driver to claim, please.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Grandicap posted:

Where did this come from? I thought driver discussion only happened in my mason doc and was not public knowledge.

You appear to have forgotten that there are two masonries in this game (excluding the scumdoc) and Winson is in both of them. Also my masons are allowed to communicate with me (and only me) by PM if they want to tell me something privately. Winson PMed me to tell me what he's just told the thread about bussing me and Maltose. I asked the Driver to claim to try and verify this. As there hasn't been a counterclaim, I know Winson's at least telling the truth about being the Driver - although he could be still be scum and lying about the swap in order to make me trust him.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Juanito posted:

Night 1, he recruit Somber, and I investigated Somber, but my investigation failed, although he got recruited successfully. The fact that Hal's action succeeded and mine failed made us a little uneasy about Somber.

I'd love to know how you managed to get one night action to fail on Somber but not another. On me, no problem, but Somber didn't have my immunity.

Grandi, your process of elimination revolves around Juanito claiming two Town investigations but no scum - something scum can do quite easily as they know who the not-scum are - and Winson telling the truth about who he drove on Night 1. It doesn't work and I won't vote Valkyrie because of it.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



On my phone so I can't review properly, but is there any evidence that Hal actually is a mason recruiter? It seems odd in a game that started with almost half the players in one masonry to have not one but two expandable masonries as well.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Hal Incandenza posted:

I tried to recruit Jedit last night and failed. Are you saying I was actually trying to recruit Maltose?

Last night was night 2. Winson hasn't told me who he bussed me with last night - or even if he did - but it's plausible that he bussed me with Somber and your recruit failed because he got hit by the NK.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Sez you.

Can people please refrain from lynching for the next hour or so, I have a lengthy post to type up and need to do it at home.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Right, I'm home.

To cut a long story short: I am third party, Maelstrom-aligned, and my win condition is to have all surviving players in my masonry at the end of the game. This means I can win with either Town or scum, and my win condition is not mutually exclusive to either. I also win even if I'm dead if only my masons survive to the end, but it does become much less likely so I want to stay alive.

Therefore, I'm declaring personal neutrality in this game. To avoid the no-lynch on Day 1 favouring anyone unduly, I will bring the votes required back in line by hammering anyone who reaches -1; this is the only way I will vote. I also will not hammer anyone in my masonry until it is certain that I will complete my win condition. This includes FV, unfortunately, as he is my fourth mason. If you're sure he is scum then there's enough of you to lynch him without me, but I cannot help.

I really don't like doing this because it's not playing the game, but both sides have been trying to kill me since Day 1 and I don't see any other way for me to win.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Meinberg posted:

Jedit being some form of third party makes sense to me. I had been pondering it for some time, in fact. It is evident that someone tried to kill him N1, but we did the math in the doc, that if he all needed to win was gain control of the vote, the game would be able to end way too fast.

As it happens, I have control of the vote right now (four masons, eight players) so you know that isn't the case.

I have to say that it's pointless having an SK with no scum team, because an SK is really just a scum team with only one member.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



fiery_valkyrie posted:

How do you have control of the vote? We might be in your masonry but we don't have to help you achieve your win con.

Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear there. Since 50% of the votes are in my masonry, I cannot be a Cultist because if I were I would control the vote.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Not surprised by the kill. There's an idiot on the scum team who thinks he needs to get to me, and he'd have to go through Winson to do it.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Meinberg posted:

Wait no, I forgot about including Jedit himself in his masonry. He might be up to three people now, and if no one in his masonry gets killed, and his choice doesn't get scumkilled tonight, he could win tonight.

I am on three people, but I was on four.

I think you've misunderstood my win condition. I won't win until the end of the game, whichever way it goes. I'm just trying to stay alive, protect my masons and recruit people to balance my losses.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Grandicap posted:

I think Jedit's claim is accurate. But I think we still need to lynch him. Assuming we lynch town today, and there is a NK, that leaves us at MYLO tomorrow. We no Lynch taking us to LYLO with town\scum\Jedit. At that time he would vote for whoever he wanted, either both are members of his masonry and he just drops a vote and doesn't care, or he picks solely based on masonry content. He is playing an entirely different game than the rest of us and that is a liability.

##vote Jedit

Only if you keep killing my masons. If you mislynch outside my masonry today and the scum don't shoot someone in my masonry, there's a 50-50 chance that I will have everyone on board going into MYLO. If that happens I will simply reduce the game to 3-man LYLO. If I don't get lucky in that way or one of the two kills is my mason, then in the event of a mislynch at MYLO I'll just have to hope the scum is already a mason and is generous enough to share the win. Of course, if the scum is in my masonry and you find him it's out of my hands because I can't stop you lynching him.

The more I look at my role, the more obnoxious I find it. From the start my victory has been completely dependent on the scum allowing me to continue providing a helpful service to the Town. Meanwhile, I have had to disrupt the Town game because I lose with a fast Town victory - which makes me look scummy and may well get me killed before I can recruit enough people.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



And while we're at it: why are people saying "Hey, we can afford a mislynch - let's use it to kill someone who is confirmed not to be scum!"? If you shoot me, you will only have one chance to find the last scum. If you don't, you will have the same chance plus the chance that the last scum is a person I didn't recruit or I managed to recruit everyone. That is empirically better.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Juanito posted:

I forgot Cpig was JOAT, but I still don't get a scum vibe from him.

Jedit, were you confirmed 3P? I didn't remember that.

This:

Winson_Paine posted:

Sure!

I AM THE DRIVER, FEAR MY WHEELS.

Last night I drived Jedit and Maltose, because I was sort of suspicious of them but if we are gonna be honest it was mostly arbitrary. So Jedit was the likely candidate for the nightkill and (sorry Maltose) Maltose got hit instead. Which is why I am now double convinced that Jedit is not scum, even if I am not like 100% he is not 3P.

As Winson has since flipped Town I'm confirmed as the Night 1 NK target and hence am not scum. I'm not 100% confirmed 3P as you only have my word for it, but if I were lying about that then I'd have to be Town.

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Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



##vote CPig

I know, I said, but he's not in my masonry and if nothing changes I'm apt to be apathy lynched. If he's scum I lose, but if I die now I lose anyway.

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