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wizardstick posted:Didn't WCW hit problems anytime they tried to run Sturgis Rally based PPVs? Bischoff and all being big marks for biker culture but not realising the audience would generally be racist and uninterested in fake fights? Yeah, the audience were not wrestling fans at all (just bikers there it's a big biker rally and convention of sorts) so they just cheered whoever looked cool. Oh, and they were all likely drunk/stoned off of their asses so that probably didn't help. It's just such a bizarre concept for a show that only WCW could get away with at the time.
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Sep 15, 2014 22:50
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Spikeguy posted:The thing I always thought about WCW crowds was that it drew a lot of fans who were only interested in the nWo and were fans of the cool new fad more so than wrestling. Also, a lot more drunks in the WCW crowds. I've heard reports that they gave away cheap/free beer to people pre-gaming.
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Sep 15, 2014 23:17
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There was also that time they booed Harlem Heat at Road Wild 1997, who were babyfaces at the time. A stellar idea to put 2 black babyfaces out there in front of a crowd full of drunk biker rednecks.
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Sep 17, 2014 04:12
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OldTennisCourt posted:I've heard reports that they gave away cheap/free beer to people pre-gaming. If Death of WCW was right the tickets were free, so they lost money at that PPV every year.
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Sep 17, 2014 04:15
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Going back to Rumble 2014. It's pretty interesting going back to the thread and seeing a heated argument between people behind the crowd making GBS threads on the event and people ripping on the crowd for being smarky and ruining the show.
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Sep 17, 2014 04:26
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An Actual Bear posted:There was also that time they booed Harlem Heat at Road Wild 1997, who were babyfaces at the time. A stellar idea to put 2 black babyfaces out there in front of a crowd full of drunk biker rednecks. I liked when they gave two vanilla midgets a 20 minute match with 2 overtimes in front of a crowd of bikers that were only there because they had to be and wanted to see Hogan and nobody else.
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Sep 17, 2014 12:13
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wizardstick posted:Didn't WCW hit problems anytime they tried to run Sturgis Rally based PPVs? Bischoff and all being big marks for biker culture but not realising the audience would generally be racist and uninterested in fake fights? Road Wild had a bunch of drunk dudes sitting on their bikes and the camera jerking away from women flashing. Plus that raised ring stage about killed Stevie Ray.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:08
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coconono posted:Road Wild had a bunch of drunk dudes sitting on their bikes and the camera jerking away from women flashing. Plus that raised ring stage about killed Stevie Ray. Wasen't Road Wild in general a huge debacle because it never made money at the gate since it was a free show? So not only are you getting people who give no fucks about it, are rowdy in all the worst ways but you're not even getting money for it. Okay here's a question: We went over worst Wrestlemanias, what are the worst Starrcades?
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Oct 4, 2014 01:28
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Starrcade 99 and 2000 belong in the top worst ppvs of all time to be honest.
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Oct 4, 2014 02:20
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ColeM posted:Starrcade 99 and 2000 belong in the top worst ppvs of all time to be honest. The first Starrcade at Chicago was a complete clusterfuck. Opened with PN News in a scaffold match.
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Oct 6, 2014 00:34
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coconono posted:The first Starrcade at Chicago was a complete clusterfuck. Opened with PN News in a scaffold match. You mean Great American Bash?
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Oct 6, 2014 00:39
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I'm never really a fan of running an entire tournament on a PPV, so I'm not really big on Starrcades '90 thru '92. '97 also really sucks as a whole. It has DDP pinning Hennig clean and a great Eddie/Dean match which are about the highest points. The six man tag is forgettable, nothing really good about Mongo/Goldberg. Saturn/Benoit is good but the finish kills it. Bagwell/Luger sucked even before the cheap finish. Hennig and DDP also mostly sucks as a match, but it was the only singles match where an nWo run in really didn't occur. Zybysko/Bischoff is utter crap, and features a great part where Bischoff maybe gets DQ'd because Hall stuck something in his shoe when he was in a Tree of Woe and doesn't actually hit Zybysko with it because it goes flying out of his shoe and probably killed a fan. Sting/Hogan was not a good match despite the hype, and the double Dusty finish was just a complete gently caress up. OJ MIST 2 THE DICK fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Oct 6, 2014 |
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Oct 6, 2014 00:51
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But you're still ok with Wrestlemania IV, right? Right.  I was clicking around some stuff on profightdb, and I came across Unforgiven '07. On paper, that show looked pretty average, and apparently in execution it was a misery. When the best-rated match on the card is Lance Cade & Trevor Murdoch vs. Brian Kendrick & Paul London you know you're in trouble. I checked the show on the Network and just clicked on to the Cena vs. Orton match, thinking that this might have been a fresh thing from that long ago and it loving sucked. Then the Taker vs. Henry match also sucked, possibly even harder.
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Oct 6, 2014 00:55
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OldTennisCourt posted:Wasen't Road Wild in general a huge debacle because it never made money at the gate since it was a free show? So not only are you getting people who give no fucks about it, are rowdy in all the worst ways but you're not even getting money for it. I think it was a decision that in retrospect was so incredibly stupid that makes it really clear how bad at WCW was at being financially responsible, even when they were improving buyrates and TV ratings. That and Lanny Poffo.
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Oct 6, 2014 01:06
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ayn rand hand job posted:I think it was a decision that in retrospect was so incredibly stupid that makes it really clear how bad at WCW was at being financially responsible, even when they were improving buyrates and TV ratings. That and Lanny Poffo. It's not even bad that they did it once, it was an annual deal for four years! They all sucked
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Oct 6, 2014 02:35
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bobkatt013 posted:You mean Great American Bash? Derp. Yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_American_Bash#1991 Its a loving thing to see.
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Oct 6, 2014 02:42
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ayn rand hand job posted:I think it was a decision that in retrospect was so incredibly stupid that makes it really clear how bad at WCW was at being financially responsible, even when they were improving buyrates and TV ratings. That and Lanny Poffo. Pretty sure it was only done because Biscoff was a huge bike fan. Man, were any of the Smackdown only PPVs good? Smackdown always seemed to be a second tier show and I can't recall a non garbage PPV they did.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:16
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Their first one, Vengeance '03, is a very good show.
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Oct 6, 2014 03:20
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OldTennisCourt posted:Pretty sure it was only done because Biscoff was a huge bike fan. Bischoff used the WCW for his self masturbatory indulgences? I am shocked.
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Oct 6, 2014 04:01
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coconono posted:Derp. Yeah The first starrcade does have a scaffold match and it involved Jim Cornette falling, and getting seriously injured.
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Oct 6, 2014 05:05
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ayn rand hand job posted:Bischoff used the WCW for his self masturbatory indulgences? I am shocked. In theory it made sense, Sturgis is a place where middle class white dudes go to feel like tough outlaws by rubbing shoulders with biker dudes and the NWO fueled WCW was all about middle aged tough dudes and an outlaw image. The main problem was they didn't pull any money at the gate (not a huge issue if they worked around that, but it's WCW so they didn't) and them trying to maintain any kind of cohesion with the WCW storyline when most of the people there were drunk dudes who wanted to watch guys punch each other and cheer for Hogan. They should have structured it as an NWO focused PPV and had the announcers/ads play up that since these were badass biker dudes they were going to cheer for the bad guys (which is what happened anyways) and then they should have presented it much like Souled Out or the WWE ECW where it was an event with a loose shootfight theme and the idea that it was no holds barred and that ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN. It would have been easy to manipulate the crowd if they had tried and stacked the face side of it with a bunch of guys they knew the spectators would hate but instead they ran what ended up being a really expensive house show in the middle of a field with terrible heat that was confusing.
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Oct 6, 2014 12:44
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OldTennisCourt posted:Man, were any of the Smackdown only PPVs good? Smackdown always seemed to be a second tier show and I can't recall a non garbage PPV they did. Judgment Day 2005 Angle vs. Booker, London vs. Chavo, and Eddie vs. Rey are all good, while Cena vs. JBL is a fantastic bloody brawl that really should have been their WM match. And the opener (MNM vs. Bob Holly/Haas) is actually decent.
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Oct 6, 2014 13:32
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El Estrago Bonito posted:They should have structured it as an NWO focused PPV and had the announcers/ads play up that since these were badass biker dudes they were going to cheer for the bad guys (which is what happened anyways) and then they should have presented it much like Souled Out or the WWE ECW where it was an event with a loose shootfight theme and the idea that it was no holds barred and that ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN. It would have been easy to manipulate the crowd if they had tried and stacked the face side of it with a bunch of guys they knew the spectators would hate but instead they ran what ended up being a really expensive house show in the middle of a field with terrible heat that was confusing. I don't really disagree with most of your post. This was impossible given the build. Hogg Wild was a month after the Hogan turn and nWo formation. At least by the time Souled Out rolled around, Bischoff was associated with the group, and they were more of an actual faction kind of.
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Oct 6, 2014 13:44
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A fellow wrestlefan friend recently reminded me of how lovely Royal Rumble 2012 was as a whole. It's not embarrassingly bad like some of late era WCW, but it stands out as being incredibly boring and bland. The WHC triple threat cage match was a curtain jerker and despite Bryan being champion it was bogged down by Mark Henry and Big Show, there was an 8-diva tag with no build, Cena and Kane went to a double countout in the middle of the "embrace the hate" feud, Drew got squashed by Brodus Clay in an unannounced match, and Punk vs Ziggler for the WWE title was good but Dolph was an afterthought because Punk was feuding with Johnny Ace at the time. The Rumble match had zero storylines, nobody who had a legitimate chance to win entered before the early 20s, the entrants were full of comedy jobbers and one-shot 80s throwbacks, and nobody cared that Sheamus won, especially retrospectively since it only led to him beating DBry in 18 seconds at Wrestlemania. The runner-up was Jericho during his "Jericho cries" return angle, and The Dirtsheetz said he was supposed to win but they changed it at the last minute and the angle led to nothing. That's not even getting into the TON of filler segments they had throughout the show, like Kane slaughtering Ryder and lingering on the beatdown and loading him onto a stretcher yet again, long as hell hype packages for Rock/Cena at Wrestlemania, and everything else they threw in to fill up 3 hours. They easily could've cut out 15 minutes of bullshit and given Cody Rhodes an IC title defense. He was even having a mini-feud with Justin Gabriel at the time, which could've boosted both of them.
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Oct 8, 2014 23:21
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sticklefifer posted:A fellow wrestlefan friend recently reminded me of how lovely Royal Rumble 2012 was as a whole. It's not embarrassingly bad like some of late era WCW, but it stands out as being incredibly boring and bland. The WHC triple threat cage match was a curtain jerker and despite Bryan being champion it was bogged down by Mark Henry and Big Show, there was an 8-diva tag with no build, Cena and Kane went to a double countout in the middle of the "embrace the hate" feud, Drew got squashed by Brodus Clay in an unannounced match, and Punk vs Ziggler for the WWE title was good but Dolph was an afterthought because Punk was feuding with Johnny Ace at the time. The Rumble match had zero storylines, nobody who had a legitimate chance to win entered before the early 20s, the entrants were full of comedy jobbers and one-shot 80s throwbacks, and nobody cared that Sheamus won, especially retrospectively since it only led to him beating DBry in 18 seconds at Wrestlemania. The runner-up was Jericho during his "Jericho cries" return angle, and The Dirtsheetz said he was supposed to win but they changed it at the last minute and the angle led to nothing. That's not even getting into the TON of filler segments they had throughout the show, like Kane slaughtering Ryder and lingering on the beatdown and loading him onto a stretcher yet again, long as hell hype packages for Rock/Cena at Wrestlemania, and everything else they threw in to fill up 3 hours. They easily could've cut out 15 minutes of bullshit and given Cody Rhodes an IC title defense. He was even having a mini-feud with Justin Gabriel at the time, which could've boosted both of them. You know, I was just watching this, and you really do go from DBD vs. Show vs. Henry to Dolph vs. Punk to the Rumble. The Rumble match itself is pretty good, but like you said - ultimately meaningless. Odd, too, since the previous year's winner curtain-jerked at WM - and lost.
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Oct 8, 2014 23:39
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sticklefifer posted:A fellow wrestlefan friend recently reminded me of how lovely Royal Rumble 2012 was as a whole. It's not embarrassingly bad like some of late era WCW, but it stands out as being incredibly boring and bland. The WHC triple threat cage match was a curtain jerker and despite Bryan being champion it was bogged down by Mark Henry and Big Show, there was an 8-diva tag with no build, Cena and Kane went to a double countout in the middle of the "embrace the hate" feud, Drew got squashed by Brodus Clay in an unannounced match, and Punk vs Ziggler for the WWE title was good but Dolph was an afterthought because Punk was feuding with Johnny Ace at the time. The Rumble match had zero storylines, nobody who had a legitimate chance to win entered before the early 20s, the entrants were full of comedy jobbers and one-shot 80s throwbacks, and nobody cared that Sheamus won, especially retrospectively since it only led to him beating DBry in 18 seconds at Wrestlemania. The runner-up was Jericho during his "Jericho cries" return angle, and The Dirtsheetz said he was supposed to win but they changed it at the last minute and the angle led to nothing. That's not even getting into the TON of filler segments they had throughout the show, like Kane slaughtering Ryder and lingering on the beatdown and loading him onto a stretcher yet again, long as hell hype packages for Rock/Cena at Wrestlemania, and everything else they threw in to fill up 3 hours. They easily could've cut out 15 minutes of bullshit and given Cody Rhodes an IC title defense. He was even having a mini-feud with Justin Gabriel at the time, which could've boosted both of them. It was incredibly obvious Jericho was supposed to win considering how much they hyped his return. They had Sheamus win in one of those "poo poo the crowd figured out where we were going with this, time to SWERVE" moments that always falls flat on it's face. What sucks is that I honestly like Sheamus and wish him success, but that title reign that began with the 18 second victory was both the most prolific accomplishment of his career to date and also the most dreadful part of his career(the 6-month Del Rio feud with the amazing one-night Ziggler interlude) at the same time.
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Oct 8, 2014 23:42
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The roster was also bone-dry by early 2012 (thanks to Johnny Ace's "Creative has nothing for you" approach to developing talent) so you had a lot of guys that hadn't been on TV in forever get thrown into the ring because they had no one. The entire commentating team even got a go it was that bad. Then Triple H reorgnized the NXT developmental system, called-up more dudes and experimented with more gimmicks and the 2013 Rumble was better by leaps and bounds.
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Oct 9, 2014 00:51
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I've read Death of WCW but the idea of Souled Out being an all NWO PPV is still the most baffling wrestling decision I've seen in a long time. How did no one realize that the stable was being overexposed to gently caress and an entire PPV show devoted to them would literally never work? The very idea that they would split WCW and NWO into two shows is absolutely insane. NWO is such a fascinating topic, it simultaneously helped skyrocket WCW and help completely destroy the company. Also, it can't be overstated how boring and pointless the Wrestling Classic is, though This Tuesday in Texas may give it a run for it's money, I should check it out and see.
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Oct 15, 2014 02:20
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Tuesday in Texas is completely justified by the Jake/Savage match and aftermath. loving incredible stuff.
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Oct 15, 2014 02:22
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OldTennisCourt posted:I've read Death of WCW but the idea of Souled Out being an all NWO PPV is still the most baffling wrestling decision I've seen in a long time. How did no one realize that the stable was being overexposed to gently caress and an entire PPV show devoted to them would literally never work? The very idea that they would split WCW and NWO into two shows is absolutely insane. NWO is such a fascinating topic, it simultaneously helped skyrocket WCW and help completely destroy the company. To be fair, the nWo was only six months old by the time of Souled Out 1997 and honestly still very, very popular because of the slow burn to Hogan/Sting. Though you can see the cracks in WCW's handling of it by the time. The idea of doing a brand extension with the nWo (the heels) and WCW (the faces) being on separate shows makes no loving sense and even WCW had the foresight to test the waters with a PPV (and then a Nitro at year's end). As well that the WCW guys were always jobbing and treated as jokes even during Souled Out. That entire PPV is seriously a must-watch for wrestling fans because of how bizarre an experiment it really was.
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Oct 15, 2014 02:32
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It's kind of funny how when Savage finally got Jake in a match, he just stomped Jake flat. Then Jake one upped him again.
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Oct 15, 2014 02:39
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Justin Godscock posted:To be fair, the nWo was only six months old by the time of Souled Out 1997 and honestly still very, very popular because of the slow burn to Hogan/Sting. Though you can see the cracks in WCW's handling of it by the time. The idea of doing a brand extension with the nWo (the heels) and WCW (the faces) being on separate shows makes no loving sense and even WCW had the foresight to test the waters with a PPV (and then a Nitro at year's end). As well that the WCW guys were always jobbing and treated as jokes even during Souled Out. As a thought experiment, could a brand split with NWO and WCW work? Like, perfect world, total control booking, could it have ever worked, or was it just a completely impossible idea?
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Oct 15, 2014 02:45
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OldTennisCourt posted:As a thought experiment, could a brand split with NWO and WCW work? Like, perfect world, total control booking, could it have ever worked, or was it just a completely impossible idea? Not impossible. Just really asking for problems. Look at Raw/Smackdown. One show's going to get more viewers, leading to all the big stars wanting to be on the 'A' show, leading to the 'B' show being designated as the 'B' show, despite the fact that the little guys on the 'B' show are going to try hard and put on a hell of a show (I understand that at one point, Smackdown had the better wrestling show). Then the split gets muddied to try to bump ratings on the 'B' show, or to try to elevate the guy on the B show, he'll make 'A' show appearances. As long as one company owns both the 'A' show and the 'B' show, the split ultimately fails.
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Oct 15, 2014 03:11
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That's what they get for not treating both like A-shows though. Smackdown had a legitimate shot, but Raw had the Monday night legacy and the benefit of being live. Had Smackdown gotten a reliable timeslot (like Tuesday primetime), shot live, and had a card with equal star power, quality matches and storylines, the split would still probably exist. The reason it didn't was because they started caring about it less. But if you look back to like 2008-2009, Smackdown was regularly the better show and regularly main evented PPVs. So it's really all on the shoulders of the company and how they treat it.
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Oct 15, 2014 03:41
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sticklefifer posted:That's what they get for not treating both like A-shows though. Smackdown had a legitimate shot, but Raw had the Monday night legacy and the benefit of being live. Had Smackdown gotten a reliable timeslot (like Tuesday primetime), shot live, and had a card with equal star power, quality matches and storylines, the split would still probably exist. The reason it didn't was because they started caring about it less. But if you look back to like 2008-2009, Smackdown was regularly the better show and regularly main evented PPVs. So it's really all on the shoulders of the company and how they treat it. Hell Triple H even started working Tuesdays.
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Oct 15, 2014 16:27
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sticklefifer posted:That's what they get for not treating both like A-shows though. Smackdown had a legitimate shot, but Raw had the Monday night legacy and the benefit of being live. Had Smackdown gotten a reliable timeslot (like Tuesday primetime), shot live, and had a card with equal star power, quality matches and storylines, the split would still probably exist. The reason it didn't was because they started caring about it less. But if you look back to like 2008-2009, Smackdown was regularly the better show and regularly main evented PPVs. So it's really all on the shoulders of the company and how they treat it. Smackdown may or may not have been the better show, I don't know. It seems the Internets were in agreement. (I never watched it, I couldn't tell you). You can promote each show equally and they'll see the same level of success, if all nights are created equal. I don't have the answer to that one. I'm fairly sure Friday night is not equal to Monday night, but that's only judging from the social lives of people I know. In fact, I'll throw out there that the best way to get both shows over equally would require them to actually compete against one another for viewers, like the Monday Night wars. which in this case would have meant finding another NBC/Universal channel to put Smackdown on, at 8 or 9PM on Monday nights. Smackdown Thursdays wouldn't work because of the stiff competition on the free networks, weekends generally bring lower viewership, esp in primetime. I don't know how SD would fare on Tuesday or Wednesday. I know TNA's been shedding viewers since Wednesday, but it's TNA so... But I digress. It's a fairly weak argument, but honestly I think it's the only way to have both shows considered equal. And even that's ludicrous, because why the blue hell would you put one of your shows on opposite the other? So it's all doomed. Strawberry Panda posted:Hell Triple H even started working Tuesdays. In an attempt to bring up Smackdown's ratings, yes.
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Oct 16, 2014 01:38
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IronCladBurrito posted:Smackdown Thursdays wouldn't work because of the stiff competition on the free networks, weekends generally bring lower viewership, esp in primetime. Smackdown was originally aired Thursdays, up until 2005. They also had Edge/Taker for Smackdown's WHC title main event Wrestlemania in 2008, so they at least had some faith in its quality over Raw for quite a while.
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Oct 16, 2014 05:13
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Smackdown was terrific from 2002 to 2003.
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Oct 16, 2014 14:11
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sticklefifer posted:Smackdown was originally aired Thursdays, up until 2005. They also had Edge/Taker for Smackdown's WHC title main event Wrestlemania in 2008, so they at least had some faith in its quality over Raw for quite a while. Had it ever really been revealed why that move happened? From what I can remember, it was just before EB and UPN meeged.
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Oct 16, 2014 17:19
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You know what was poo poo? Summerslam 2004 was poo poo. This show had Kane Vs Matt Hardy in their famous "Kane blackmailed sex from Lita so he would stop killing Matt, got her pregnant and then married his rape victim because he didn't want a bastard" feud, HHH beating up Eugene in a feud that got more TV time than all the other matches combined and JBL facing the Undertaker in a match that was so dull the fans started to do a Mexican wave so large the commentators all talked about it and called the fans dumb because they know not to poo poo on a Taker match. All the other matches were okay at best and the main event was legit good if you can get past one half being a murderer. Awful, awful show. 2004 was a real dark time in WWE for the most part.
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Oct 16, 2014 18:12
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