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Vincent K. McMahon
Sep 13, 2014

by Ralp


Autonomous Monster posted:

So wait, if the barn was attached to an orphanage, where was the orphanage when the War Doctor turned up?

And why the hell did they build an orphanage in the middle of the desert?

Let's assume the orphanage and anything surrounding the barn was wiped out in the many years that followed, somehow turning it into a wasteland with the barn still standing

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Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010



Noxville posted:

There was no way to not include it, literally the entire point of the episode was Moffat writing an origin story for The Doctor.

I really like it when an episode is subtle about the Doctor's past - like when we learn the Doctor stole the Tardis, and then thirty years later we learn the Tardis unlocked itself.

Then 2 years later we learn that Clara magicked herself throughout every moment in history to prod the doctor into picking that Tardis. gently caress that noise.

The Doctor being scared of the dark and crying himself to sleep at night? I am so down with that. Sleeping in a barn in bumfuck-nowhere Gallifrey being soothed by Clara? Not a fan.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Autonomous Monster posted:

So wait, if the barn was attached to an orphanage, where was the orphanage when the War Doctor turned up?

Fell apart/destroyed/dismantled long ago by whatever turned the rest of that area of Gallifrey into desert, probably.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Noxville posted:

There was no way to not include it, literally the entire point of the episode was Moffat writing an origin story for The Doctor.

It's not an origin story. It's not even close to an origin story.

It's a singular, potentially-formative event that is only the definite "origin" of a SINGLE LINE OF DIALOGUE in An Unearthly Child/100,000 BC.

Vincent K. McMahon
Sep 13, 2014

by Ralp


But how did they fly to Gallifrey?

How was it in Clara's timeline?

Is EVERYTHING in Clara's timeline now because of the fracturing before?

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007



PoshAlligator posted:

So who wrote "listen" on the chalkboard?

The hiding thing. I don't care what anyone says, there was definitely a Thing. Gonna call him Wally.

FiftySeven
Jan 1, 2006


I WON THE BETTING POOL ON TESSAS THIRD STUPID VOTE AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS HALF-ASSED TITLE ok im just adding words to see how much space it can really take up dont forget to delete this


Slippery Tilde

Vincent K. McMahon posted:

But how did they fly to Gallifrey?

How was it in Clara's timeline?

Is EVERYTHING in Clara's timeline now because of the fracturing before?

Shhh, dont ask silly questions.

PriorMarcus
Oct 16, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY


Well, they edited out the most offensively stupid part at least.

But, seriously, gently caress a Doctor origin story.

PoshAlligator
Jan 9, 2012

When SEO just isn't enough.


PriorMarcus posted:

Well, they edited out the most offensively stupid part at least.

But, seriously, gently caress a Doctor origin story.

Please tell.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Vincent K. McMahon posted:

But how did they fly to Gallifrey?

How was it in Clara's timeline?

Is EVERYTHING in Clara's timeline now because of the fracturing before?

They went to Gallifrey because the safeguards were off and because Clara's timeline is fractured and weird due to the stuff on Trenzalore. It was implicit, but like many of Moffat's plot elements, not explicit.

PriorMarcus posted:

Well, they edited out the most offensively stupid part at least.

But, seriously, gently caress a Doctor origin story.

I'd rather have this than the loving Other.

... so what did they edit out?

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007



Oh, but the young Doctor thing was dumb. Don't want anyone thinking I liked that bit. Leave Time Lord childhoods alone, we don't want to hear it. Just let them be mysterious and unknown.

e: also yeah, I'd like to know what this edited thing was too please

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

McDragon posted:

The hiding thing. I don't care what anyone says, there was definitely a Thing. Gonna call him Wally.

Yeah, they were still pretty ambiguous about whether there was a "thing" at all or not.

Myrddin_Emrys
Mar 27, 2007

by Lowtax


Chipping in after my posts of hatred last week concerning Capaldi and 'his' Doctor.

This episode (apart from the 50th anniversary episode) has to be the best Doctor Who episode I have seen since NuWho. This was the Doctor I have been yearning for. This was the story I was hoping to see him in. This episode was loving amazing and I loved every minute of it.

I take it back what I said previously, on the proviso that tonight's episode quality continues.

I cannot believe I had to endure 3 episodes of total poo poo before I saw the glittery gold hidden in the clay.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider



If the Doctor was raised in an orphanage, where does the House of Lungbarrow fit in?

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


PoshAlligator posted:

So who wrote "listen" on the chalkboard?

I guess we have to assume stuff like that (and the thing under the bedspread) were deliberate misdirections, and that the Doctor really did write it subconsciously while absorbed in his own speculations, and that it was a kid under the bedspread.

I don't know, while I enjoyed this episode and appreciate the idea that the "monster" turned out to just be the very "human" fear of darkness and being alone, it feels like it didn't quite work in the end. While I think it was unnecessary to pop back to the Doctor's own childhood, it was still a sweet moment, and there was no aspect of the episode I'd call bad at all.... it just that the whole thing ended up feeling ultimately unsatisfying to me.

McDragon
Sep 11, 2007



HD DAD posted:

Yeah, they were still pretty ambiguous about whether there was a "thing" at all or not.

I think we need a poll on whether there's a thing. I believe in the thing.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

McDragon posted:

Oh, but the young Doctor thing was dumb. Don't want anyone thinking I liked that bit. Leave Time Lord childhoods alone, we don't want to hear it. Just let them be mysterious and unknown.

We were all young, once.

Besides, any sense of "Time Lord mystery" is long since dead and buried. I'm beginning to question the point of maintaining the pretense, honestly; Shrodinger's cat has been out of the bag since The Deadly Assassin.

Trying to artificially restore that mystery gave us sodding Lungbarrow.

Autonomous Monster posted:

If the Doctor was raised in an orphanage, where does the House of Lungbarrow fit in?

Who said it was an orphanage? [/virginnewadventures]

FiftySeven
Jan 1, 2006


I WON THE BETTING POOL ON TESSAS THIRD STUPID VOTE AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS HALF-ASSED TITLE ok im just adding words to see how much space it can really take up dont forget to delete this


Slippery Tilde

Jerusalem posted:


I don't know, while I enjoyed this episode and appreciate the idea that the "monster" turned out to just be the very "human" fear of darkness and being alone, it feels like it didn't quite work in the end.

I disagree. Kids around the UK are not going to be sleeping tonight, and plenty of adults are going to probably second guess themselves just for a moment and then feel really silly about it. I think it was a total success and easily ranks up there with Blink among Moffats best.

Myrddin_Emrys
Mar 27, 2007

by Lowtax


Vincent K. McMahon posted:

But how did they fly to Gallifrey?

How was it in Clara's timeline?

Is EVERYTHING in Clara's timeline now because of the fracturing before?

Unless im very much mistaken, everything in Claras timeline is everything to do with Doctor and everything he has done in his timeline.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS


Clara was asked to think about "the time she had that nightmare", but ended up going back to the time Pink had it instead because she was thinking about him. I guess at the end she did the same thing only with the Doctor.

I think I'm ok with the childhood scene, it further establishes The Doctor as an outcast rather than some space messiah.

PoshAlligator
Jan 9, 2012

When SEO just isn't enough.


Also Clara was just telepathically communicating with the TARDIS. I have no issues believing the TARDIS would choose to go there based on the information Clara gave it.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Re: the "orphanage". Unless I missed a specific bit of dialogue, everything was left vague enough that it could have been anything really. Maybe those were his parents (or an Aunt and Uncle) and "the other boys" were siblings (or cousins). Maybe he was staying at some kind of camp. Maybe it was a Gallifreyan boarding school. Maybe it WAS an orphanage: the obvious parallels are there between him and young Rupert's situation.

The trouble is, jumping back to any point in the Doctor's life BEFORE An Unearthly Child means you do one of two things:

1. You specifically define his past, which upsets viewers because it will inevitably not be what they imagined or like to think about the Doctor.
2. You go as hazy and undefined as possible to avoid 1, which raises the question of why bothering to do it at all.

It's also unnecessary since, as already mentioned, what makes the Doctor "the Doctor" has already been seen from the events of An Unearthly Child on. So it really adds nothing to the character, and is distracting and draws away the viewer's attention/discussion of everything else that happened in the episode.

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Clara was asked to think about "the time she had that nightmare", but ended up going back to the time Pink had it instead because she was thinking about him. I guess at the end she did the same thing only with the Doctor.

PoshAlligator posted:

Also Clara was just telepathically communicating with the TARDIS. I have no issues believing the TARDIS would choose to go there based on the information Clara gave it.

Yeah that's how I saw it too - she was telepathically hooked up to the TARDIS and it was getting conflicting messages of,"That time I had the dream" and "The Doctor!" - same thing was already established earlier in the episode when she thought of Danny and got jumped back to the first time he had the dream instead.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at Sep 13, 2014 around 19:44

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


I think kids are gonna sleep just fine, since Clara straight-up said it was nothing. The last 5-10 minutes ruined what was otherwise a decent if jumbled episode.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider



DoctorWhat posted:

Who said it was an orphanage? [/virginnewadventures]

Jerusalem posted:

Re: the "orphanage". Unless I missed a specific bit of dialogue, everything was left vague enough that it could have been anything really. Maybe those were his parents (or an Aunt and Uncle) and "the other boys" were siblings (or cousins). Maybe he was staying at some kind of camp. Maybe it was a Gallifreyan boarding school. Maybe it WAS an orphanage: the obvious parallels are there between him and young Rupert's situation.

I could have sworn blind they said something explicit.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


So if we accept that "Wally" under the bedsheet really was just a kid (who must have sat in his bedroom afterwards REALLY confused by the party going on at Rupert's) then is this the first episode of the revival to NOT feature an alien/monster/creature?

Wheat Loaf
Feb 13, 2012

by FactsAreUseless


I wasn't really sure what I was expecting and now I'm not really sure what to think. I think I might need to rewatch this one to decide.

However, I would've liked the scene on Gallifrey better if it had ended with David Bradley in character as One poking his head over the edge of duvet to watch the TARDIS dematerialise.

PriorMarcus
Oct 16, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY


Jerusalem posted:

So if we accept that "Wally" under the bedsheet really was just a kid (who must have sat in his bedroom afterwards REALLY confused by the party going on at Rupert's) then is this the first episode of the revival to NOT feature an alien/monster/creature?

Yes, it is.

Also, I done goofed and they did leave in the bit I really disliked - iPlayer just skipped for me. And it's Clara leaving the little toy soldier with no gun for the young Doctor. In the script it's described as her "leaving him a gift, a soldier without a gun guarding all the stars" and is so implicitly meant to be an origin story like it was to Danny.

Tempo 119
Apr 17, 2006



When they mentioned time lords and we were supposed to realise it was the Doctor in the barn, I initially thought it meant Danny was a time lord and they were going to explain why all his poo poo is so convoluted.

pinacotheca
Oct 19, 2012

Events cast shadows before them, but the huger shadows creep over us unseen.

I was really impressed by that. It was beautiful in parts, even.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS


I do quite like the implication that The Doctor is always scared, but trying to use that to his advantage.

PriorMarcus posted:

Yes, it is.

Also, I done goofed and they did leave in the bit I really disliked - iPlayer just skipped for me. And it's Clara leaving the little toy soldier with no gun for the young Doctor. In the script it's described as her "leaving him a gift, a soldier without a gun guarding all the stars" and is so implicitly meant to be an origin story like it was to Danny.
That was overly cheesy, but from the conversation the adults were having it seemed that The Doctor was already on his way to going rogue (he was unwilling to become a soldier even though that was what his society demanded of him). Clara just provided some extra inspiration for him.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.



what

WhAT

WHAT!?

anastazius
May 17, 2009


Should I know what / who that is? Reminds me of Dash Rendar for some reason..

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

ABSLOM DAAK, DALEK KILLER

YOU MOTHERFUCKERS HAD BETTER KNOW WHO ABSLOM DAAK IS

anastazius
May 17, 2009


I did not until now. He sounds glorious.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

anastazius posted:

I did not until now. He sounds glorious.

HE'S GONNA BLOW EVERY LAST STINKING DALEK OUT OF THE SKY

[yes, that was a Daak reference in Bad Wolf]

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


No no, you were right the first time, that's Dash Rendar.

Crusader
Apr 11, 2002


progress that shields us from the terrors of an uncertain future




Yam Slacker

DoctorWhat posted:

ABSLOM DAAK, DALEK KILLER

YOU MOTHERFUCKERS HAD BETTER KNOW WHO ABSLOM DAAK IS

YES!

egon_beeblebrox
Feb 29, 2008

WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.




I don't particularly care about this character I've never heard of, but I do like that they seem to be increasingly accepting the other media into the TV show. It's pretty neat.

anastazius
May 17, 2009


I'm probably thinking too much into this, but does anyone think there's any chance that the thing under Danny/Rupert's blanket and whatever was knocking on Orson Pink's door could tie in to the seasonal arc? If they end up being real.

Like when Eleven messed around in his timeline with the fez and the mop. But maybe with Missy instead? I think I'm just wanting to believe it was something supernatural and unknown and exciting.

If it was just a kid under a blanket then he is insanely good at being creepy I'll give him that.

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Trin Tragula
Apr 22, 2005



DoctorWhat posted:

I'm gonna need some time to think this over.

Definitely going to have to watch this again, probably after some sleep. Right now the only thing I can think is "man, this is a horrible time to be airing a story which has creepy happenings in a children's home", and that's probably colouring how I'm thinking of everyone else.

I reckon this is going to be a big old Marmite episode; either you buy into the whole package and love it, or it leaves you completely cold and you hate it.

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