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hazza
Mar 25, 2005

I couldn't see him, therefore I knew he was there.



I, for one, am looking forward to integrated projectors in future USB connectors!

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Halman
Feb 10, 2007

What's the...Rush?



Oh my god he has a chain sword

Crazy Man
Mar 12, 2006

The laws of sanity are mine, and they will obey me!


I enjoyed this episode. Although I thought it was a bit ballsy of Moffat to go into the Doctor's childhood, I think it left enough mystery as to not spoil things, whilst at least giving us something to walk away with.

Need to re-watch, but who was the Doctor actually talking to in the beginning?

9.4/10

Potsticker
Jan 13, 2006



Halman posted:

Oh my god he has a chain sword

How else do you expect him to chop open Daleks?


Who was the Jenny people were talking about just before the episode aired? Something about Moffat asking her not to get killed off?

Plavski
Feb 1, 2006

I could be a revolutionary


Crazy Man posted:

Need to re-watch, but who was the Doctor actually talking to in the beginning?

Whoever knocked his chalk off.

Also, Moffat talking about this episode:

It was really down to an entirely selfish desire. I remember the first thing I said about this years run is: Im going to do a chamber piece, with no money, in the middle, because I havent done one in ages and Id like to prove that I can actually write.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


LISTEN to these gifs. Wait.... that makes no sense...













Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?














Plavski
Feb 1, 2006

I could be a revolutionary


No loving way that's a kid. That's a monster. Hell, it looks a bit like a baby Silence.

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006



Eh.

That had a great creepy atmosphere, but I came away unsatisfied. A bunch of really strong scenes, but it was less than the sum of its parts. And they really shouldn't have shown any of the Doctor's childhood. Though it wasn't as bad as I was dreading when I heard in the spoiler thread that they would be doing this.

And agreed that middle aged guy sneaking around a children's home in the dead of night has some unfortunate connotations these days.

ewe2
Jul 1, 2009

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

put clinton in prison imo


Lipstick Apathy

My first thought was this is unfair to spring an origin story on a new Doctor but on reflection it isn't the mechanism of the origin story that might be the point here. It might be that a regeneration kicks off a reassessment of personality and things like his personal LISTEN myth get an airing even if he mistakes it for objective reality. After all, we are our own myths, we're lucky if we get close to understanding that, let alone trace the origins. So it underlines that 12 is still a "new" Doctor, and perhaps his unhinged nature might settle down.

Clara becomes the ultimate objective yardstick, and the Doctor has to accept there are some mysteries he can't penetrate. There was a great deal of clumsy interleaving of foreshadowed Clara and Pink time which gives Clara undue prominence among Companions as if she wasn't already. So that's my problem with the episode, there's too much reliance on Ultimate Clara-ty. When in doubt, send in the MacGuffin!

Rochallor
Apr 22, 2010


I'm not sure if the bit about the Doctor's childhood should have been done, but it was definitely the best possible way to go about it if you've decided to go and do it anyway. "Fear makes companions of us all" and the soldier without a gun were fantastic.

Lots of lines about soldiers this season, at least in this and Into the Dalek. I'm wondering if this is going to go anywhere.

nuzak
Feb 13, 2012


When the doctor wears a dark shirt and the camera's on his top half, you can't really see the more idiosyncratic elements of his costume (boots/the red lining) and he just looks like some guy in smart casual

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


marktheando posted:

That had a great creepy atmosphere, but I came away unsatisfied. A bunch of really strong scenes, but it was less than the sum of its parts.

Sums up my feelings well. I think each individual element was handled very well, there was very good characterization, Clara continues to grow as an interesting person, I like her awkward relationship with Danny, Capaldi is doing fantastically as the Doctor but overall this particular episode felt like something was missing. Some extra little spark to tie everything together - it's a weird feeling to be left unsatisfied by an episode where I can't really point to any one thing and say,"This wasn't done well." Even the stuff with the Doctor as a child was handled well, and my criticism of it is that I don't want to see ANY writer try to define any aspect of the Doctor's life pre leaving Gallifrey.

Edit: And just to further a point made by DoctorWhat - this was in no way an "origin" story, it told us nothing about the Doctor's childhood, family or pivotal events of his life beyond the fact that one night as a child he was scared in a barn and had a "dream" about being brave and protecting people.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at Sep 13, 2014 around 21:40

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

Plavski posted:

No loving way that's a kid. That's a monster. Hell, it looks a bit like a baby Silence.

I love how that's the only split second glimpse we get of that thing.

And that thing is definitely not human.

Crazy Man
Mar 12, 2006

The laws of sanity are mine, and they will obey me!


I'm wondering if this whole Clara being afraid of dying thing is just a ruse (because if she does die, it would be a very expected departure from the audience's point of view), and in the end, she'll meet up with Jenny (Doctor's daughter) and go on space adventures with her for the rest of her (long) life.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

HD DAD posted:

I love how that's the only split second glimpse we get of that thing.

And that thing is definitely not human.

Didn't the Doctor wake up saying something about Sontarans interfering in history?

Yeah, probably a Time Warrior reference, but the thing under the covers LOOKED like a Sontaran to me...

Crazy Man posted:

I'm wondering if this whole Clara being afraid of dying thing is just a ruse (because if she does die, it would be a very expected departure from the audience's point of view), and in the end, she'll meet up with Jenny (Doctor's daughter) and go on space adventures with her for the rest of her (long) life.

I think she's afraid of dying because she's seen so many OTHER Claras die.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


DoctorWhat posted:

Didn't the Doctor wake up saying something about Sontarans interfering in history?

He leaps up and shouts,"Sontarans perverting the course of human history!" then glares at the silent Orson and tells him to shut up and stop confusing him.

thespaceinvader
Mar 30, 2011

The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!


Yeah, creepy atmosphere, interesting scenes, good doctor, but ultimately, left me thinking 'yes, there is a thing that's always watching you, it's the loving Silence.' They seem, whether on purpose or otherwise, to be repeating a LOT of themes from older episodes and it's starting to grate.

Any yeah, why did no one remember the thing on the bed?

SiKboy
Oct 28, 2007
Simaggeddon



Potsticker posted:

How else do you expect him to chop open Daleks?


Who was the Jenny people were talking about just before the episode aired? Something about Moffat asking her not to get killed off?

To anyone who doubts the chainsword, think on this; of all the people we have seen the Daleks kill, 100% of them have not been using a chainsword.

Jenny is a female clone based on the doctors genetic material from the episode "The Doctors Daughter", during Tennants run. I would say check it out, but frankly its not a great episode so you might just want to read a synopsis. Anyway, the original concept had her dying in the episode, but apparently Moffat asked if that could be changed (he wasnt showrunner at this point) so she survives. She has made zero appearences and been mentioned zero times since then, so I think people just wonder why he bothered having it changed. Personally I think he had half formed ideas that just never panned out into a fully formed story so hes just left her out there for some future writer to pick up on (or not, its not like her surviving means that she HAS to encounter the doctor again).

Stealthweasel
Feb 13, 2005
Flies at the throat of man!

I really liked that the driving force behind this episode was just the Doctor being curious about something. It wasn't a threat he necessarily had to face, he wasn't trapped or trying to save anyone, he just did some thinking and came up with a theory and wanted to know if he was right. The fact that the episode ended up going back to his childhood really disappointed me because it was actually nice to see an episode where the Doctor was going out of his way to investigate something that wasn't an immediate deadly threat or some big prophecy about him.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Stealthweasel posted:

I really liked that the driving force behind this episode was just the Doctor being curious about something. It wasn't a threat he necessarily had to face, he wasn't trapped or trying to save anyone, he just did some thinking and came up with a theory and wanted to know if he was right. The fact that the episode ended up going back to his childhood really disappointed me because it was actually nice to see an episode where the Doctor was going out of his way to investigate something that wasn't an immediate deadly threat or some big prophecy about him.

Now he'll never know if he was right.

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.

Toilet Rascal

DoctorWhat posted:

Now he'll never know if he was right.

*Credits roll over static shot of broken chalk*

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


thespaceinvader posted:

Any yeah, why did no one remember the thing on the bed?

After it has left, Clara asks the Doctor if they just successfully saved a kid from.... another kid hiding under a bedspread, and he agrees it is entirely possible.

The out of focus image makes it look like a monster, but the end of the episode suggests that there was never any monster. So I think we're supposed to accept that it was just a kid (it does slam the door behind it as it goes, which seems odd for creatures perfectly designed to remain hidden) and that the image we see represented... I don't know, the characters' undefined fears of whatever it is that is the something under the bed? Maybe?

Shugojin
Sep 6, 2007

THE TAIL THAT BURNS TWICE AS BRIGHT...



This is Doctor Who, it could have very well been an entirely different and very, very confused alien

Plavski
Feb 1, 2006

I could be a revolutionary


Jerusalem posted:

After it has left, Clara asks the Doctor if they just successfully saved a kid from.... another kid hiding under a bedspread, and he agrees it is entirely possible.

The out of focus image makes it look like a monster, but the end of the episode suggests that there was never any monster. So I think we're supposed to accept that it was just a kid (it does slam the door behind it as it goes, which seems odd for creatures perfectly designed to remain hidden) and that the image we see represented... I don't know, the characters' undefined fears of whatever it is that is the something under the bed? Maybe?

Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not after you.

DoctorWhat
Nov 18, 2011

Someone call the Chancellery Guard. Commander Maxil's out of uniform. AGAIN.

Shugojin posted:

This is Doctor Who, it could have very well been an entirely different and very, very confused alien

Again - SONTARANS PERVERTING THE COURSE OF HUMAN HISTORY!

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Shugojin posted:

This is Doctor Who, it could have very well been an entirely different and very, very confused alien

Well yeah, that's sort of the idea of the mood of the episode. You're always questioning whether it's real or not, and there's evidence on either side (the thing on the bed for yes, Clara being under the bed for no), but you don't really know.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Shugojin posted:

This is Doctor Who, it could have very well been an entirely different and very, very confused alien

I would love that.

"I am an alien who communicates via eye-blinks, I am looking forward to first-contact with these huma.... they... they won't look at me "

Dabir
Nov 10, 2012


The idea of a monster that only does anything if there's another plausible explanation is a fantastic one and it deserved a better episode than this one.

As for slamming the door... well they already knew it was there, maybe it just did that as a courtesy to let them know they could turn around? Assuming it was a monster. Which is entirely possible.

Stealthweasel
Feb 13, 2005
Flies at the throat of man!

Jerusalem posted:

After it has left, Clara asks the Doctor if they just successfully saved a kid from.... another kid hiding under a bedspread, and he agrees it is entirely possible.

The out of focus image makes it look like a monster, but the end of the episode suggests that there was never any monster. So I think we're supposed to accept that it was just a kid (it does slam the door behind it as it goes, which seems odd for creatures perfectly designed to remain hidden) and that the image we see represented... I don't know, the characters' undefined fears of whatever it is that is the something under the bed? Maybe?

The cloister bell also starts ringing at the end which is weird if there's nothing out there, although possibly the TARDIS just got scared too.

Republican Vampire
Jun 2, 2007



Structurally it was a huge mess. IN terms of visuals, concepts, and other meta bits it was just another half-baked Moffat best-of record, ala the Library two-parter. Also it makes no real sense in terms of character since we've met like, two or three different kinds of baddy that function exactly like the baddies here that turn out not to be real.

Basically it was a bad episode.

Potsticker
Jan 13, 2006



SiKboy posted:


Jenny is a female clone based on the doctors genetic material from the episode "The Doctors Daughter"

Thanks for the explanation. I read "Moffat" and assumed it was from after he took the reigns on the show.

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006



Stealthweasel posted:

The cloister bell also starts ringing at the end which is weird if there's nothing out there, although possibly the TARDIS just got scared too.

The cloister bell is really over-used these days. It should be a really rare "oh poo poo" moment when you hear it, now it seems to happen at least twice a series.

Dave Brookshaw
Jun 27, 2012

No Regrets


Potsticker posted:

Thanks for the explanation. I read "Moffat" and assumed it was from after he took the reigns on the show.

Pure RTD. Middle of Season 4.

Moffat was asked about why he'd "saved" Jenny a few years later, btw, and couldn't remember doing it! He'd just been idly musing about the episode to RTD.

SNAKES N CAKES
Sep 6, 2005

DAVID GAIDER
Lead Writer


God drat that was rubbish. Moffat should be sacked if he won't leave of his own accord.

Lord Ludikrous
Jun 6, 2008

Enjoy your tea...



Jerusalem posted:

LISTEN to these gifs. Wait.... that makes no sense...


Never seen any of Everdraed's work then?

Anyways, episode had its moments but felt a bit too disjointed and all over the place for my taste. Looks like Into the Dalek remains at the top spot for this season. Capaldi does get better with each story though.

PriorMarcus
Oct 16, 2008

ASK ME ABOUT BEING ALLERGIC TO POSITIVITY


SNAKES N CAKES posted:

God drat that was rubbish. Moffat should be sacked if he won't leave of his own accord.

He's staying for at least one more season.

SiKboy
Oct 28, 2007
Simaggeddon



I enjoyed the episode overall. It was a structural mess, I am completely sure that they came up with 2 creepy scenes and the visit to gallifrey and then just strung together some connections between them. But the creepy scenes were creepy, the character interactions were good, andI just enjoyed it. If anything I wish it was a part one, and part two would be dealing with the thing under the blanket.

Because I remain convinced that there was a creature of some description rather than "it was a prank". The chalk, the "listen" on the chalkboard, that scene... Sure it COULD be the doctor moving stuff around and forgetting it, but to me it read like a set up for an episode where the scary creature was actually just scared and needed the doctors help (like The Doctor Dances). A creature evolved for "hiding"* wouldnt necessarily be a threat because killing would draw attention. I am open to the possiblity that later in the series we'll revisit some of the stuff from this episode and, while never seeing the thing under the blanket, find out what they are hiding from. Of course theres a very good chance that I'm completely wrong.


*Or as we call it when creature have evolved to be excellent hiders "camouflage".

Android Blues
Nov 22, 2008



This episode was very bold and clever. Its structure is weird but that's because it's a trick: it acts like it's going to be a Moffat-esque spooky sense-based monster episode, and then near the end reveals that all along it's been a personal piece about the Doctor's desperate desire to see for himself what it was that was under his bed that night, in a way that places him as vulnerable and questioning rather than tally-ho, seeing off the monster of the week with a surge of Murray Gold.

It wasn't my favourite of the episodes so far this season, but I thought that willingness to play around with structure and subvert the cliche was really interesting and made it one to remember.

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T.C.
Feb 10, 2004

Believe.

Dinosaur Gum

The lack of a monster is the best part. I don't know why some people are trying to convince themselves that there was one. The charm of the episode is in the fact that it's a complete reversal of the usual concept behind this type of story. It's a subversion of audience expectations.

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