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So... is there anyone else who loves Capaldi in general, but is really tired of his constant putdowns of Clara? I guess what bothers me is that they're not just generic insults... if he was just being oblivious and abrasive that'd be one thing. But when you have the exchange, "It's too late, you took your makeup off" "I'm still wearing makeup" "... Oh. Maybe you missed a spot" (or whatever he said, this is from memory), that's not just obliviousness, that's a bunch of expectations he's making her feel bad for not living up to. I guess it's supposed to be absurd 'cause she's obviously attractive or something, but... for some reason that's not making it any better for me. Telling anyone that kind of stuff seems really lovely to me, and beneath the doctor. Even if the doctor's being a jerk. That's just... not a fun way to be a jerk. I don't know, it might just be me. I thought the "you'll die in six months" joke from last episode was hilarious, even though, in retrospect, it was theoretically a lot more serious. I don't mind the doctor being abrasive, but constantly saying things to make Clara insecure is... not fun at all.
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Sep 14, 2014 18:17
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Irish Joe posted:I am routinely triggered by Doctor Who. Cliff Racer posted:Sorry it triggers you all. I don't mean to come off as a Tumblr-ite or anything. I mainly wanted to express discomfort with those jokes without calling Capaldi a trash Doctor (which the other couple complaints seemed to do). I guess I emphasized it wrong, but I think Capaldi is awesome, grumpy Capaldi especially (he totally carried that Robin Hood episode, just by being a huge grump and hating on everyone). I just don't like that joke specifically... and it's been in every episode so far. Davros1 posted:Remember, this is the same person who when instructed by his robot dog to let his companion make inquiries of the locals because "she is more attractive", he response was a befuddled "She is?" nuzak posted:It's not obliviousness, Jenna Coleman's beauty is immediately apparent. Whoever said it comes across more like the doctor pulling her pigtails is spot on. The joke is that we all know she's pretty, but the doctor thinks she's a bit ugly, isn't he a kidder. Obliviousness is more like how Tennant was with Martha, Capaldi is giving Clara a handful of put-downs based on her physical appearance per episode.
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Sep 14, 2014 21:02
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To make it not just about the Doctor, I think Clara's had a few "what the gently caress, why are you being such a dick" moments with regards to Danny Pink being a soldier. Like, both the "killing people" jokes she made ("killing people and crying about it" as well as "that [killing someone] means something coming from you") to him were... super awkward. And while the show treated them as super awkward, they really seemed too awkward for a functioning adult to have seriously made them. Basically, I think Moffat's probably, deep down, a bit of a dick, and he's making his characters a bit more dickish than he realizes. (Unless it's just me, and it's totally cool to make jokes about killing people to someone who probably has killed people.) Rita Repulsa posted:That's how he came off in this and in the last (both Bad Episodes)
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Sep 14, 2014 21:39
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Irish Joe posted:If people could be reasonable and make statements like "I don't think the Doctor's comments are coming off the way Moffat intended them. They feel really mean-spirited" instead of "MISOGNY! MISOGYNY! DERP DERP DERP!" you wouldn't have this kind of push-back. So, I'll admit, I don't pay enough attention to user names, so I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt. I was going to say, "You're slightly misremembering things, I basically did say, 'I don't think the Doctor's comments are coming off the way Moffat intended them. They feel really mean-spirited,' almost word for word." And then I was going to quote my first post that started all this as proof: Eiba posted:So... is there anyone else who loves Capaldi in general, but is really tired of his constant putdowns of Clara? I was going to point out that even this innocent post immediately caused sarcastic and dickish push-back of exactly the type you're saying wouldn't happen without "MISOGYNY DERP" (which I hope we can all agree, my post was not). I distinctly remembered that there was push-back, no matter how mildly the criticism was phrased, and that this conversation is indeed pretty blatantly the fault of jerks who get insecure at the merest hint of "social justice". When I went to quote that post... it turns out... you loving made it. Irish Joe posted:I am routinely triggered by Doctor Who. I mean, obviously you'll never listen to folks concerned about social issues, but you have to admit, regardless of the validity of social issues, you're blatantly wrong about the things that actually happened in this thread. It was literally you who fired the first shot. You personally made this a 5 page argument... not alone, as it turns out, but you would have done it by yourself. So... thanks for making everyone else who blames "SJW's" for this conversation look like even bigger whiny idiots and hypocrites than they are, I guess? God drat, I had no idea how toxic this subject would end up being. I'm not sorry for my opinions or even the way I expressed them, but I'm still sincerely sorry for how the conversation ended up making GBS threads up the thread.
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Sep 16, 2014 02:11
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Angela Christine posted:Is there any way for a powerful white man to rib his inferior female companion? Edit: And just as a heads up, people complaining about how long a conversation has been going on just drags the conversation on even longer as it becomes a conversation about the conversation. No one wins. Best bet is to just exercise your scroll wheel a bit, or bring up another subject (this chat didn't drown out all that big finish chat, at least). Eiba fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 15:44
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With regards to Missy... Is it not obvious that she's the Master, and she's still somehow trapped on Gallifrey, and that she's somehow manipulating robots throughout time to find "the promised land" (obviously Gallifrey) and thus free the Time Lords (or specifically, the Master herself)? 'Cause that seems obvious enough that I want to get it on record so I can go "called it" later on when folks are surprised. Seriously, the "he loves me" bit can only refer to River (who's not coming back), a new character who's exactly like River (which would be really lame), or the Master.
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Sep 17, 2014 06:23
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Controversial opinion: I love the new opening. I think the shrill oo-ee-oo is a lot more appropriately eerie compared to the straightforward bombast of earlier revival themes, and I have no idea why neat clocks and gears are any more offensive than silly CGI wobbly tunnel effects. It's not like wobbly cgi tunnels are any more true to the original abstract opening sequence. I mean, I can see some grumpy folks not liking change and rejecting it, but the universal condemnation it's received here is just bizarre. It's awesome.
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Sep 18, 2014 20:39
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CuddleChunks posted:I don't remember them getting up in anyone's face and saying, "You're a soldier! gently caress YOUUUUUUUUUU". *That* is the change in Doctor number 12 that I don't see any motivation for and I think is lovely writing.Capaldi. Okay, let's assume the Doctor is justified in hating soldiers 'cause they're morally culpable for their actions having signed up in full knowledge that they could be called on to kill people without question, and thus necessarily agreed to be complicit in horrible acts whether they end up committing them or not. Sure. Okay. The Doctor hates soldiers, and he's not wrong to do so. Danny isn't a soldier- he's a math teacher. If he once was doing bad stuff, he's not anymore. He's doing pretty inherently good stuff. What more can the Doctor ask for? And what's more, what does the doctor have against PE teachers? Like, honestly, that seemed more dickish and out of place than the anti-soldier stuff. First off, assuming someone is not book smart because they choose to do something for a living that doesn't require book smarts is dumb, mean and un-Doctory. And even then, since when does the doctor belittle someone's value because they're not book-smart? Like 10 didn't go on and on about what a stupid worthless temp worker Donna was. Exactly the opposite! I'm okay with a gruff insulting Doctor. The Bakers were both quite rude and arrogant at times. But they were never as unkind as 12 has been, even in their rudeness. At least not that I remember. It was more flaunting authority and conventions than actually belittling people. All that said, it's pretty clear that this issue is one the show plans on acknowledging. I imagine the Doctor's hatred of (obedient) soldiers is going to be explained as self-loathing for his own role in manipulating people into violence. There was already some payoff as Danny was infinitely more sympathetic going off on the Doctor the way he did, considering the Doctor deserved it (and more). Setting up this dynamic this way gives Danny plenty of room to be quite justifiably in opposition to the Doctor in a way that will, undoubtedly, really teach the Doctor something. I imagine it'll be pretty satisfying. It's still really uncomfortable to watch this stuff, though. Basically this: Bicyclops posted:I actually think the interaction between Danny and the Doctor worked precisely because Danny basically calls him out on being an old white guy calling the shots and criticizing him. The Doctor's being mad at soldiers regardless of their history or the sort of person they are is a commentary on the sort of well-meaning but wealthy individual yelling at someone with less privilege than they have about their life choices. Both Danny and the Doctor are painted with humanity, but the episode puts you firmly on Danny's side and always wants you to be on his side. Danny's awesome, and I hope he continues to be awesome. I can't wait until he becomes a full companion.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:07
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Okay, don't get Jamie Mathison to run the show- those skill-sets don't necessarily transfer- but have Moffat chain him to the desk and write at least half the episodes. Also, keep getting new writers! Some of them will stink, but all the regular writers have stinkers anyway. You can't get things much worse, and there's the potential for any number of Jamie Mathisons to be out there, with fantastic new ideas that they won't have to go back and cannibalize for years. drat, these last two episodes have been fantastic. I'm deeply impressed with how exceptionally creepy the creatures were in this episode! And at the same time there was so much Tardis size stuff that was, quite frankly, hilarious. You'd think the two tones would conflict, but no. This was a hilarious episode (always wanted to ram something...) that never lost its horrifying creepy edge! I don't know how he did it. Rochallor posted:Thinking back on it, I'm not sure the "Goodness has nothing to do with it" line was really earned. It doesn't seem to flow from how Clara acted in the episode. She may have done the best anyone could. She may have saved as many people as could be saved, but those losses should still be devastating. She's pretty clearly lost perspective. She's lost the sense of value of a human life. Honestly, I'm not to sold on this theme. I mean, it makes sense. When you think about it, the Doctor having life-threatening adventure after life-threatening adventure, week after week... voluntarily is really hosed up. And that's what we're looking at. But honestly... I'd rather not, all else being equal. I mean, it's ultimately because of the format of the show. You need an adventure every week, and the character is the embodiment of freedom. So... you've got a bit of a contradiction there. But gently caress it, I don't care. I'd rather things be fun, and for us to concentrate on each (potentially dark) adventure, without making the audience feel bad for hoping for a scary adventure every week. I mean, whatever epiphany the Doctor gets after all this... he's going to go right back to it. That's just how the show works. So this is all an elaborate and transparent excuse for the fact that the Doctor seems to willingly surround himself with death. Somehow in the end we're going to have to justify it. And that's... not something I'm terribly interested in justifying. Eiba fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Oct 19, 2014 |
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Oct 19, 2014 01:56
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ewe2 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErWSYJYKM-Q Then the story didn't go anywhere for a while. Okay. It was building tension. Then it went really, really stupid places. Like I guess I feel like a bit of a heartless nerd, but the science was unspeakably dumb. It would have made a lot more scientific sense if they actually called it magic. Like, they go out of their way to do things like mention Tunguska... which means they must know about and understand Tunguska... but then they get it so loving entirely wrong. There's no excuse for that! It's not ignorance, it's just... lying! But okay. Whatever. I can fix that with my brain. It was actually magic, and the doctor didn't say those things. Was the good then? No. The emotional climax involved Clara casually telling the Doctor to just let them all die. It wasn't just dumb, it was cruel. Yeah, they'd miss their parents. All else being equal, they should be with them. But they should not die with their parents if their parents are doomed. That's just... horrifically cruel. I'm not even twisting things. This isn't even some sort of, "well, I could twist it to make it feel bad" type of thing. Clara wanted the kids to stay behind and die because otherwise they'd miss their parents. Literally, with no tweaking on my part, "better dead than sad". I'll give the show this, I was actually on board with the "Doctor doesn't have to do anything but make sure humans don't gently caress it up" story. I think that says an interesting thing about the world and the Doctor's role in it. So... if I liked the premise, the characters, and the conclusion, it should be okay, right? No. It was brain-dead cruel garbage because of everything in the middle. The writers seem like they just gave up and didn't think anything through, and produced garbage as a result. The only way I could enjoy this was if I just deliberately ignored vast swathes of it. I will say this isn't an issue with Capaldi, or even this season. Last episode got everything right. It was creepy, it was funny, it had really compelling characters- both sympathetic and unsympathetic ones. The (entirely fantasy) ideas were well presented, coherent, and interesting. It was inherently kind (Clara's disregard for those she lost is condemned by the show as horrible). It succeeded at pretty much everything this episode failed at. These aren't impossible expectations. This episode just... was dreadful.
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Oct 26, 2014 01:19
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Unkempt posted:WHERE THE gently caress WAS EVERYBODY That would have been a far neater premise. It would have been lonely and creepy and beautiful in a way that opening scene of the whole city totally was, but the rest of the episode aggressively and densely wasn't. But then they pulled back to the green globe, and I was wondering what the gently caress all those trees were doing in the ocean, and then all the super stupid news announcements started flying around about super trivial things, when people would be dying all over to house fires and medical emergencies. Doctor Who has always had a pretty bad sense of scale, but that's no excuse for this episode having a terrible sense of scale. I dearly hope someone sits back, feels bad about this episode, and makes the conscious decision to tell more smaller scale stories. Doctor Who can do those perfectly. Just... please limit the scale.
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Oct 26, 2014 01:57
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Acne Rain posted:Can someone spoil why Clara and Doctor are apparently in favor of murdering a bunch of children so I don't have to watch this inane sounding episode Clara says they should get back to the TARDIS. The Doctor presumably wouldn't have bothered, because Clara had to motivate him by saying, "at least let's save the kids we have here." The Doctor agrees that this is a good idea. When they get to the TARDIS Clara explains that she had tricked the Doctor. She believes (without asking anyone) that the kids would rather be with their parents than safe in the loving TARDIS. The Doctor basically goes, "Oh... okay. Well let's save you and Danny then. [Letting all the kids die is totally cool with me]." Clara explains that Danny wouldn't abandon the kids, (he's not a loving psychopath, I guess), and Clara doesn't want to be the last of her kind. The Doctor asks why the gently caress they even came to the TARDIS then. Clara explains that it was to save you Doctor. Let humanity save you this one time! The Doctor takes this in stride and begins to bugger off, as Clara leads Danny and the kids to what she believes is certain doom. This is an actual thing that happened on Doctor Who. Forget the fact that Earth ain't time-locked or anything. They can all go back to 1960 and live long fulfilled lives and poo poo. Nope. All gonna die right here right now. For the best, really. They might be sad otherwise. I guess if you're an orphan... gently caress you? You're better off dead? Jesus Christ this is a loathsome episode. I agree with what folks are saying about mental illness too. Eiba fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Oct 26, 2014 |
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Oct 26, 2014 05:18
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Solaris Knight posted:I think what we need to realize about the whole hearing voices and medication thing is context. Yes, in an ordinary situation where someone is hearing voices and having nervous tics, you should give them medication. The thing is, it's not real, and people with mental illnesses are. That scene was pretty loving heart-wrenching too. All her classmates knew what was going on, and it made them really loving distressed to watch. They were pleading with the Doctor to help her (that is, to give her real-world help), and he told them to gently caress off. Imagine if she was having an asthma attack and as she was on the ground writhing, and her classmates were crying in distress, the Doctor was saying, "no no, it's just a breath monster trying to communicate!" or something. That doesn't even have the baggage of mental illness, but can you imagine just how... gross that scene would be? "No no, foolish humans trying to fix what they don't understand, I know better!" Just because there's a fantasy explanation for it, doesn't change how it reads in the real world, i.e. the place where all us viewers live. It's like... in skeezy anime (my deepest apologies for using an anime analogy) you have characters who look like a little girl but are "actually" thousands of years old. That fantasy explanation doesn't make it any less incredibly creepy, gross, and wrong if you start... treating them like adults. We all understand the in-universe justification. It's just entirely irrelevant. (Sorry again for the poo poo analogy... I was wracking my brain for a better one, but I that was the best/least derail-y I could think of to demonstrate just how useless in-universe excuses are for bad poo poo.)
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Oct 26, 2014 05:38
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MisterBibs posted:The kids said they wanna be with their parents, if I remember the time line right. Also, the kids who want to be with their parents don't know that that means they'll die. Basically they're talking about something entirely different than Clara is.
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Oct 26, 2014 06:35
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ewe2 posted:The episode is so clearly about How Adults Can Be Wrong, but because it's not perfectly written, it's Not Allowed To Be. So yeah. If anyone with a bit of understanding and compassion had any say in the matter, it wouldn't be allowed, no.
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Oct 26, 2014 18:21
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My favorite part of the episode... even more than the Cyberman eye door reveal... even more than the Master reveal (both of which I loved) was when the guy said the scientist theorized the voices were the voices of the dead, and the Doctor asks with total seriousness and severity, "Why... was he mad?" That delivery, combined with my own eye-rolling at the whole afterlife concept in Doctor Who, just made me completely lose it. Capaldi's the loving best. 
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Nov 2, 2014 00:59
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The Master has always been really flamboyant in his own way. There's really no contradiction in terms of her character for her to act the way she has been acting as the Mistress. Honestly, this kind of "bad girl" "he really likes me and I'm so sassy" works a lot better for Missy, with all their history, than it did for a random character like River Song. This is a totally natural evolution of Simm's manic Master. If the character's problematic in other terms... it's hard for me to figure. She's a villain, so obviously not a role model, but that doesn't make a huge difference to how she's being portrayed as a woman ("the master has always been sexist" doesn't seem like a good defense to me). I don't know, it's too weird a sci-fi conceit for me to wrap my head around in those terms. Like, she's clearly not representing someone who's transgender in the sense that they identified as the other gender before their physical transition, nor is she representing someone who's inherently a woman. So however she acts... it's not really registering on my offend-o-meter as being a poor representation of any actual group. That's not to say anyone's wrong for being upset at the characterization. If anything I'm inclined to assume it's somehow problematic just because Moffat's involved. I'd just need it explained more clearly what the issue is, 'cause I'm not really getting it right now. PriorMarcus posted:It's was even better because he ask "Why? ...Was he an idiot?" There were so many great bits with Capaldi. Earlier he may have come off like too much of an rear end in a top hat for me when I wasn't expecting it, but now that I'm just going with the flow of this Doctor it's pretty amazing. When he started taking back control in the opening scene in Mt. Doom, and told Clara to throw the key away, was another example. He made an otherwise really, really silly scene kind of awesome with his force of personality alone.
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Nov 2, 2014 01:19
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Burkion posted:I'm saying this as a writer ... One thing the Master has been above all else is in love with himself. A self loathing master who hates that she's a woman would be not only a super gross character, but a super dumb character who's nothing like the Master. And forget all that- even if it's a huge part of his character (it's not), women are entirely capable of being really sexist, without being self loathing. Sometimes they even do it by spitefully adopting feminine/flirty traits they think 'sexless feminists' or whatever would disapprove of! More often it's simply in the form of tearing down other women in sexist ways to promote themselves. Sexism is rarely PUA style hatred of women. It's usually a form of traditionalism. "A woman's place has traditionally been..." etc. Missy is indeed emphasizing her traditionalist views of gender by calling herself Mistress instead of Master.
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Nov 2, 2014 04:27
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radlum posted:Has this season mentioned the Gallifrey plot from Day of the Doctor? I was expecting this season to be at least partially about the search for Gallifrey, but I've missed a couple episodes this season and I don't recall any references about it so far. The incredibly strong theme this season of "soldiers from a long ago conflict who forgot their mission/meaning" obviously applies to the Doctor. "The promised land" theme may literally apply to Missy's afterlife, but striving for the promised land is what we expect the Doctor is doing, now that he knows Gallifrey is out there. And yes, he's been working on calculations in chalk the whole season, which we're kind of assuming has something to do with Gallifrey. It's all been subtle though. If probably been laying the groundwork for some sort of "Aha! We've been working to get there this whole time, but never told you!" reveal. Angela Christine posted:Time travel. Don't try to reason your way past Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey, because that way lies madness. She's been specifically following the Doctor around. For some reason. From what little we've seen it's likely that she's been closely following the Doctor, and we've probably been seeing her in chronological order.
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Nov 3, 2014 02:17
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I wonder, can the modern series even support a classic-series-style recurring master? Like, was there any option but to kill her off and keep her around for season finales only? Somehow I can't even imagine a mid-season standalone Master episode, even though we can totally do that with the Cybermen and Daleks and stuff. Killing Osgood felt... real bad. But I guess that was exactly what was needed, as Gomez was such a fun character that there was a real danger of ceasing to give a drat about how evil she was, and just rolling with it. I mean, I totally wouldn't mind just rolling with it, and having a good time, but I get that's not quite the Master's role here. Gratuitously killing Osgood as she pleaded for her life made things very not-good-time in a way I guess they needed to.
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Nov 9, 2014 05:43
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Jsor posted:A spinoff series where Jack Harkness, Rusty the Dalek, CyberBrig and DoctorDonna have wacky space adventures. With special guest star K9. I'm just saying, Rusty and the Cybrigadier could be a legit thing. That said, as amusing as the idea is, bringing back the Brigadier as a Cyberman somehow feels in bad taste. I can't exactly explain why. I hope they just quietly forget it ever happened and over the years it just becomes one of those things fans make jokes about.
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Nov 9, 2014 08:48
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