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Very fun game, thanks for running it Kilran. Man that was so surprising when I died to Xopods. Didn't expect that to happen. Wish I had gotten some daykills off before I went.
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Oct 11, 2014 14:44
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Magnus Gallant posted:Very fun game, thanks for running it Kilran. Next time read your Role PM :P
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Oct 11, 2014 14:57
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I did read it, just missed the sentence where it said I was especially susceptible to bombs, lol. Three scum in a game like this seems kinda low, what were your thoughts behind that choice? I had a lot of fun day one, and was very excited to start off day two, so I'd say it was a good game.
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Oct 11, 2014 15:02
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The town had no Doctor, no straight up Cop and most of their powers were unreliable / required fuel. There was a 3p who could effectively roleblock town players by stealing fuel. The scum had some powerful roles which generated fuel. The core concept was a vulnerable town which, through coordination, could use Skynet's tools against it, slowly closing a net.
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Oct 11, 2014 15:10
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kilran posted:The town had no Doctor, no straight up Cop and most of their powers were unreliable / required fuel. Cool makes sense. I mean the scum definitely didn't lose this game through night actions, so it was imbalanced in a night action sense. Man this game would have been so different if I had survived! Funny to think about.
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Oct 11, 2014 15:14
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I felt for sure town was in trouble when Byers mentioned DOGS most of d1 and Xopods basically told you he had bombs :P It's why there was a Mason recruiter who had a 50/50 chance of confirming HUMAN (but not TOWN) if they had fuel. And a Town Broadcaster / Rolecop who had a 50/50 chance of learning your role if they had fuel. Both roles auto failed against terminators, so if the only result they could trust was a success.
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Oct 11, 2014 15:21
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Not a fan of any mechanics/roles that feature a diceroll. Takes the power out of the players hands and turns it into luck.
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Oct 11, 2014 15:40
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kilran posted:I felt for sure town was in trouble when Byers mentioned DOGS most of d1 and Xopods basically told you he had bombs :P Yep I straight up lied my rear end off for the hell of it this game. Mostly because I assumed the scum would be more willing to jump at testing a broadcast.
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Oct 11, 2014 17:19
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Wait, I won a mafia game?
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Oct 11, 2014 19:30
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tearshed posted:Not a fan of any mechanics/roles that feature a diceroll. Takes the power out of the players hands and turns it into luck. Well I kinda feel you. You'll note the scum had no such die roll, which is important. But I think too much emphasis is placed on night actions anyway. Town's greatest strength is that they are telling the truth and have to separate the lies from what appear to be lies. Scum are more reliant on night actions. Plus you'll note that the 3 critical rolls killed scum 75% of a percentile. But I get what you are saying. Maybe less randomness and more 'false positives' are in order.
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Oct 11, 2014 19:40
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For the record, I was a hider, which is why I kept trying to bait the scum to come after me. I wanted them to waste a night.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:31
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The Hider role was actually more of a hindrance for Town, despite being immune to the scum. You couldn't benefit from positive actions from town either, meaning you could only receive fuel from foraging, Gunsmith's would waste actions on you and therefore giving false negatives for the two 'investigative' roles. Essentially, you were a Miller-type role.
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Oct 11, 2014 21:47
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If scum didn't lurk they would have gone a lot better imo
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Oct 11, 2014 23:07
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kilran posted:Well I kinda feel you. You'll note the scum had no such die roll, which is important. But I think too much emphasis is placed on night actions anyway. Town's greatest strength is that they are telling the truth and have to separate the lies from what appear to be lies. Scum are more reliant on night actions.
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Oct 11, 2014 23:33
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It wasn't the night actions that lost you guys the game
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Oct 11, 2014 23:40
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bowmore posted:It wasn't the night actions that lost you guys the game
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Oct 11, 2014 23:52
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Thanks for the game, Kilran! It was fun, and I liked that we were all nice to each other. 
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Oct 11, 2014 23:58
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tearshed posted:Nobody is saying that dude. I was just critiquing the setup.
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Oct 12, 2014 00:03
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I had the most posts in the game when I died (or maybe second most after Byers) and everyone thought I was town. I rule
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Oct 12, 2014 01:08
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kilran posted:The Hider role was actually more of a hindrance for Town, despite being immune to the scum. Was he John? Cause I want to know if who I was hiding was actually in the game.
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Oct 12, 2014 06:29
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kilran posted:The Hider role was actually more of a hindrance for Town, despite being immune to the scum. DGK2000 posted:Was he John? Cause I want to know if who I was hiding was actually in the game.  Hendon, whoever that is.
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Oct 12, 2014 06:42
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CapnAndy posted:Yeah, except I didn't need fuel, and "couldn't find you" is miles away from "isn't town" or "isn't human". What positive actions was I missing out on? Being protected from nightkills that couldn't get me anyway? I was set quite nicely from my perspective. You are Kate Connor. Wife of the infamous John Connor. You are a [Resistance-Aligned Human ]. You are currently hiding John Connor which means you are a Broadcaster Role Cop. All John’s life, he has been told that he will lead the human resistance to victory over Skynet. And all his life he has been hunted by Skynet. The future isn’t exactly how his mother described it. John Connor has a group of loyal believers around him but beyond that, the leaders of the Resistance see him as something of a broken promise. At any time during the Day Phase, you may send a PM to the Moderator who will make an anonymous post to the thread on your behalf. The PM will be posted verbatim, so format it as you would like it to appear. You can post as many times as you like during the day. There may be a delay based on time zone issues. Also, if you have FUEL, you may take a Night Action to send scouts to assess the target player. This uses 1 FUEL. There is a 50 / 50 chance that either (1) the scouts will be killed en route by terminators and the action will fail OR (2) the action will succeed. A successful action reveals the target’s Role Title (but not Alignment) of the target player. E.g. <Player Name> is a [Broadcaster Role Cop]. If you target a terminator, your action automatically fails. If you are killed, John Connor will randomly flee and go to one of the following player roles: Hideki, Blair Williams, Kyle Reese or Barnes. Upon your death, you will reveal as: Kate Connor, Resistance-Aligned Human Vanilla
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Oct 12, 2014 06:48
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Goddamn, that's fascinating. You got the neat role! Why didn't you talk more?
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Oct 12, 2014 06:50
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CapnAndy posted:Goddamn, that's fascinating. You got the neat role! Why didn't you talk more? That 5 day long night really killed my enthusiasm.
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Oct 12, 2014 06:56
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Like originally I really wanted to use the broadcasting to add a shitload of flavor to the game, but then that poo poo.
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Oct 12, 2014 06:57
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bowmore posted:It wasn't the night actions that lost you guys the game I wasn't trying to lurk. 
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Oct 12, 2014 12:46
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I have to say I don't think the setup was balanced. Sorry, kilran. A starting point for balance is to think about numbers if the game was just vanilla Town, vanilla Scum and vanilla Survivors for the 3Ps. Roleless, 13 Town, 1 Survivor and 3 Scum strongly favours Town to win. From there, almost any combination of roles you add is going to skew things more to the Town. Scum already have near-perfect knowledge and control the nightkill in an all-Vanilla game. The only things you could add to help them would be extra ways to kill (which this game admittedly had, in Magnus) or a way to find the third party. Beyond that, anything else you do is going to be pro-Town, as most Scum roles are intended to find, bypass, neutralize or confuse the Town roles. Combined, a measure and its countermeasure will never (barring crazy "trick" setups of which I disapprove) be worse for the Town than if both those roles were replaced by Vanillas. So if you're going to have a weak Town, you should have the same number of Scum that you'd have in an all-vanilla game, i.e. 4 for 17 players. If the Town's going to be strong, then add one Scum. My approach to third parties is just to deduct them from the total, so for instance in Tortuguero I had only three Scum in a 17-player game, but that's because there were three third parties effectively playing their own sub-game, so the "real" game was more like 14 players and 3 Scum was an appropriate number. So sheer numbers are thing one. Thing two is soft information, which I think you failed to consider. Though the merks of the Mafia community don't like it, setup speculation is a thing and a useful tool. So when you have a mechanic like the three Gunsmiths here, you have to consider what info that's going to give to Town once claims start happening. What you saw happen here is that as soon as I claimed, Byers and Rarity were both able to make softclaims that just about made us a three-man confirmed Masonry. We all felt strongly that the others were Town, and could more or less prove it to the Town (minus Somberbrero because he's  ) once Byers flipped. I'd say that info is worth about half a Cop role on its own, before you even consider our ability to potentially kill Scum.Also, I haven't taken a close look at the setup, but a role that "auto-fails" if it targets Scum also gives soft information. A failed action is still a result... I don't know what you meant by "fail," whether that means the action will return "no role/vanilla" or "your action failed," but either way, having told the player that their action fails when targeting Scum, those results effectively mean "Scum or Vanilla" and "Scum or you were roleblocked" respectively. The latter is obviously more useful, but the former shouldn't be underestimated. For instance, Magnus claimed a power D1, so had he not died, he could have been investigated and if the action failed, it could be deduced that he was Scum. So again, that role should probably be considered to be "half a Cop" on top of its intended powers. Thirdly, small chances of powerful effects (e.g. my 25% chance of both surviving and killing my attacker if targeted by the correct Scum) make for unstable setups. Obviously when such an event happens, it's going to skew things heavily to the Town... assuming the overall setup was balanced, that would mean that things skew somewhat to the Scum the rest of the time. That's not necessarily terrible, but it does often leave people with the impression that the game's outcome was decided at least in part by a roll of the dice. So I tend to go to one extreme or the other with my setups... either it's going to be a quiet setup where the night actions only serve to add interest to the game and guide scum-hunting a bit, or it's going to be a whole-hog powerfest where you can expect several major events to swing things back and forth throughout the game. Luck is still luck, but from the players' point of view, one team winning the game because they won the "best three out of five" on the night actions feels more fair than the game being swung by a single event. ----- All that said, it's true that the Scum lost this game largely because Token Female's posting was scummily cautious and tearshed was also lurking in a scummy way - some Townies were lurking too, but their posts conveyed an honest "just don't care about this game" feeling more clearly. They would have been caught regardless. But I feel like even if Mags hadn't randomly exploded N1 and even if Token and tearshed had played better, it would have been a tough game for Scum to win... a lot of days to go without getting caught, and a lot of random night action deaths to dodge. Unfortunately, closed setup Mafia being what it is, you can't do repeated tests on a setup to see if it's actually balanced, but intuitively, I would expect Scum to win this one only 10-15% of the time if repeated trials with players with no foreknowledge were possible.
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Oct 12, 2014 14:08
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Good Game Scum, especially magnus. It looks like I was mostly off base except for token pinging me a bit, but it's always hard to avoid the spectre of omgus when someone is going after/prodding me. Have to say, this really makes me want to stop bothering with my tryhard game D1 as town anyway.
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Oct 12, 2014 18:45
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I gave DOGS, not BOMBS, and I almost managed to take Token with me but failed the roll. That was literally my plan, give out DOGS as long as I could and draw a nightkill to myself. And it worked. And then the dice failed me. This is my favorite breadcrumb ever, because it's basically the whole loaf. 
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Oct 13, 2014 13:49
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 15:29 |
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Magnus Gallant posted:I had the most posts in the game when I died (or maybe second most after Byers) and everyone thought I was town. I rule Yeah, I think you were ahead of me by a few posts when you died. You and I both died when we topped the post count, we rule.
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Oct 13, 2014 14:18
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