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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Love or hate Claire she's the one with the most background and poo poo that's happened to her and is the only one of the bunch that fits the basic "hunter" type. Jody and Donna hunt but they also maintain lives and jobs and Jody's priority is her family and helping "wayward" girls. Claire's got an insane backstory of trauma and horrible poo poo happening to her, which is also why I don't really hate her for being so damaged and assholey. I'd probably be a dick too if I had been through half that stuff.

The idea of Jody's home of girls victimized by the monster world is a more compelling different idea, but I think it makes sense that you kind of need a Claire to give the show some forward momentum. Someone as to be the person recklessly jumping into dangerous situations and driving the action.

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DoggPickle
Jan 16, 2004

LAFFO


STAC Goat posted:

Love or hate Claire she's the one with the most background and poo poo that's happened to her and is the only one of the bunch that fits the basic "hunter" type. Jody and Donna hunt but they also maintain lives and jobs and Jody's priority is her family and helping "wayward" girls. Claire's got an insane backstory of trauma and horrible poo poo happening to her, which is also why I don't really hate her for being so damaged and assholey. I'd probably be a dick too if I had been through half that stuff.

The idea of Jody's home of girls victimized by the monster world is a more compelling different idea, but I think it makes sense that you kind of need a Claire to give the show some forward momentum. Someone as to be the person recklessly jumping into dangerous situations and driving the action.

That all makes complete sense and is probably exactly what everyone in charge was thinking.

But they needed a LEAD that people like. Like all shows, I'll give it at least 6 to 12 episodes because I'm a bizarrely fair person with lots of TV time to use up, but I'd be shocked if they managed to make her a sympathetic or leading lady within that time. She doesn't have "it" like Dean. Like always, good luck, but I'm not psyched.

She's no Grant Gustin.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


I also kind of half expect the Claire connect to result in a struggling Wayward Sisters to add Mischa Barton midway through the first season.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


This season's got too many bad guys.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


I kind of like the lack of a focused Big Bad. Its not exactly the low key "just hunting" season I've been wanting what with the Devil running around and Mary off in an alternate world ruled by evil angels. But its the same loose idea of instead of them having a focused goal and Apocalypse to stop they're just kind of having to deal with the complicated and lovely world they live in.

Like Sam's admission that he's just kind of been stuffing down his trauma from Lucifer for the better part of a decade because there's always some Apocalypse to deal with. That's the kind of "ok, we've slowed down... lets clean up this mess" thing I've kind of wanted.

I think this is probably the closest we'll get because obviously they want something to narratively build towards with a season finale. Its not perfect but I appreciate the idea that Sam and Dean don't just deal with one big problem at a time, they've got a bunch of messes all at once.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


STAC Goat posted:

I think this is probably the closest we'll get because obviously they want something to narratively build towards with a season finale. Its not perfect but I appreciate the idea that Sam and Dean don't just deal with one big problem at a time, they've got a bunch of messes all at once.
If it were just them dealing with a bunch of little stuff I'd agree with you, but instead of that it seems like they've got several major antagonists and the end of the season is just going to be a mess.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Or some of those antagonists will collide and cancel each other out. Alt-Michael kills Col Sanders or whatever it ends up being.

Though, yeah, probably a mess. As endearing as this show is, itís not tightly written...certainly not 13 years in.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

Coach Bloodshot
Default Status: SHOUTING


What if all the bad guys collide and merge into a giant ball of evil?

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

I ain't got time to bleed.

Can I just say it's lame as hell that Sam and Rowena are whining about the true face of the devil

It's been years and they've dealt with so much worse like.. uh.. really, this is pretty loving out of nowhere. Rowena in particular. She loved the devil before they redeemed her and all.

Xealot posted:

Though, yeah, probably a mess. As endearing as this show is, itís not tightly written...certainly not 13 years in.

The writing has been erratic as hell since season 5 ended.

I honestly have to say this season is way, way better than 6 though (and 8, and 9..) so far so I honestly can't give it poo poo. Even with the sloppiness it's actually nowhere near the low point.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at Feb 4, 2018 around 14:20

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?


Grimey Drawer

I dunno, it kinda makes sense to me. When Sam was trapped in the cage he was literally trapped for what's probably eons with the single most powerful creature in the universe (except God) who tortured him. I'd imagine it's a bit like Cthulu or the lovecraft mythos where the real form of the thing is incredibly terrifying.

Rowena was happy to help him out because she always goes for the guy with power, but until he killed her, she hadn't seen him in his real form. Remember, Cas said his true form was the size of the Chrysler building. I'd imagine Lucifer's is quite a bit bigger, and probably exponentially more terrifying.

Since he got out of the cage there hasn't been any down time it seems, except for the few weeks while GodCas went around smiting people, and then it picked right back up at the "Oh poo poo we gotta save the world again".

They finally have some down time, and Sam's admitted to the literal only other person on the planet that Lucifer is basically the worst thing in the universe, and he's got someone to share that particular issue with. As hosed up as Dean was for being a torturer in Hell, that poo poo is nothing compared to being tortured by an archangel for thousands of years.

Until Jack rolled around, Lucifer was the literal big bad of the universe. Sam and Rowena don't know he's been depowered down to "normal" levels. That poo poo has got to be scary knowing the scary monster is real, and it knows you, and it's mad at you, and it might be coming for you at any time. Sam knows he's supposed to be stuck in an alternate universe but he also knows that poo poo tends to never work out for them.

Edit - Also loving the brother moments in the show so far. Especially "You're like 8 feet tall and you can't reach that?"

Stupid_Sexy_Flander fucked around with this message at Feb 5, 2018 around 16:59

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

I ain't got time to bleed.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

Edit - Also loving the brother moments in the show so far. Especially "You're like 8 feet tall and you can't reach that?"

Speaking of how the show is way, way better off than it's low points I am happy they've purposely stopped themselves from writing more SEEEECREEETS with them.

There are points in season 6-8 where I was really starting to root for the monsters. Say what you will at least they've back to being likable!

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Yeah, I'm fine with Rowena being traumatized by being abused and murdered by Lucifer and "seeing his true face." She's evil but she's not some empty vessel. None of what Lucifer did to her can be easy to deal with, especially knowing he's still out there somewhere and no one's ever really come up with an easy or effective way to stop him.

And Sam? You mean Sam has been dealing with emotions from his trauma that he doesn't talk about and make him depressed? Really? Not my Sam!

GreenNight
Feb 19, 2006
Turning the light on the darkest places, you and I know we got to face this now. We got to face this now.

He just needs to drink some demon blood and bang tons of girls again.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

I ain't got time to bleed.

STAC Goat posted:

Yeah, I'm fine with Rowena being traumatized by being abused and murdered by Lucifer and "seeing his true face." She's evil but she's not some empty vessel. None of what Lucifer did to her can be easy to deal with, especially knowing he's still out there somewhere and no one's ever really come up with an easy or effective way to stop him.

And Sam? You mean Sam has been dealing with emotions from his trauma that he doesn't talk about and make him depressed? Really? Not my Sam!

I think part of it is I can't take the devil seriously anymore. They've turned him into Crowley.

Like I can't picture any 'true face' of his that doesn't result in "that's it?"

Plus it's really loving out of nowhere. Where was all this trauma when the devil was staying in the next room down the hall a couple seasons back?

GreenNight posted:

He just needs to drink some demon blood and bang tons of girls again.

It'd be amusing to see someone make him drink a bunch of demon blood and turn into a psychic again, but I have a feeling most of the audience doesn't have a memory span that long. At least the writers don't.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at Feb 5, 2018 around 22:40

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


I get that. I think they've probably overused Mark Pellegrino to the point where they've really humanized Lucifer. And getting depowered and buddying with Cas didn't help.

But still, I can accept that Rowena is really loving freaked out that the Devil wants her dead, especially since she's fresh off the memories of him burning her alive and crushing her skull. She may have liked the idea of Satan for a couple of hundred of years, but the reality was rough.

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

I ain't got time to bleed.

Rhyno posted:

What if all the bad guys collide and merge into a giant ball of evil?

I totally want to be the final or next to final season a pissed off psycho-Michael in the 3rd Winchester brother's body to bust out of the cage and come gunning straight for them, fueled by rage by how loving much they went out of their way not to help him.

Like that would be the most fitting villain the show has ever done. Blow up the loving bunker and keep them on the run all season. It'd be an hilarious change of pace if the whole destroying the world plan was just an afterthought and the real story was "KILL THE WINCHESTERS" all season. Hell I can even see the kid hating their dad for not warning them what was out there, leading to the horrific death of his mother and himself. He's got a jacked backstory.

ED: I'm not even kidding, I think that would be a legitimately great villain and really give the whole show a big shot in the arm to change the status quo up and put them on the defensive. Hell, maybe they should have alternate reality michael free his counterpart, leading to a nice path into this. Now I'm just kind of bummed I doubt they'd ever even consider it.

STAC Goat posted:

I get that. I think they've probably overused Mark Pellegrino to the point where they've really humanized Lucifer. And getting depowered and buddying with Cas didn't help.

I think the point of no return was making him into a whiny teenager when he met God, instead of his rival. Just no coming back from that.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at Feb 5, 2018 around 22:50

raditts
Feb 21, 2001

The Kwanzaa Bot is here to protect me.

Blazing Ownager posted:

I totally want to be the final or next to final season a pissed off psycho-Michael in the 3rd Winchester brother's body to bust out of the cage and come gunning straight for them, fueled by rage by how loving much they went out of their way not to help him.

Like that would be the most fitting villain the show has ever done. Blow up the loving bunker and keep them on the run all season. It'd be an hilarious change of pace if the whole destroying the world plan was just an afterthought and the real story was "KILL THE WINCHESTERS" all season. Hell I can even see the kid hating their dad for not warning them what was out there, leading to the horrific death of his mother and himself. He's got a jacked backstory.

ED: I'm not even kidding, I think that would be a legitimately great villain and really give the whole show a big shot in the arm to change the status quo up and put them on the defensive. Hell, maybe they should have alternate reality michael free his counterpart, leading to a nice path into this. Now I'm just kind of bummed I doubt they'd ever even consider it.

That would be an excellent final season, there's really no way to raise the stakes higher than that and they'd finally take care of the one hanging plot thread.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?


Grimey Drawer

Holy poo poo. That ending

Blazing Ownager
Jun 2, 2007

I ain't got time to bleed.

Starting the episode: "Hey, this is an interesting take on Cupid. I wonder why they're building him up and how he'll fig--- oh dead."

ED: That said, gently caress yeah, Gabriel is still alive. I don't care what retcon'ing that takes, glad to see him back.

Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at Feb 9, 2018 around 09:36

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

Cuteness is justice!


That was a great ending for about three reasons.

One of which, of course, is GABRIEL gently caress YES

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008



Ham Wrangler

Blazing Ownager posted:

Starting the episode: "Hey, this is an interesting take on Cupid. I wonder why they're building him up and how he'll fig--- oh dead."

We've seen cupids before. They like to hug. http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Cherubim

Writer Cath
Apr 1, 2007

It's always Heath's fault.

Plaster Town Cop

Facebook Aunt posted:

We've seen cupids before. They like to hug. http://supernatural.wikia.com/wiki/Cherubim

I don't like it.

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

Cuteness is justice!


Writer Cath posted:

I don't like it.

Nobody likes it.

Titan
Jan 14, 2002


Gabriel is alive! YAY!

Stupid_Sexy_Flander
Mar 14, 2007

Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?


Grimey Drawer

When I first saw the person sitting there I was just thinking "HOLY gently caress THEY BROUGHT BACK ADAM". I dunno if I am more or less happy with the actual result.

Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

When I first saw the person sitting there I was just thinking "HOLY gently caress THEY BROUGHT BACK ADAM". I dunno if I am more or less happy with the actual result.

This would actually have made more sense. But sure, Gabriel, why not?

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

When I first saw the person sitting there I was just thinking "HOLY gently caress THEY BROUGHT BACK ADAM".
I thought they'd finally remembered him as well.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Am I the only one who always expects Donatello to be evil for some reason? There's something about that guy...

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

When I first saw the person sitting there I was just thinking "HOLY gently caress THEY BROUGHT BACK ADAM". I dunno if I am more or less happy with the actual result.

Same, but I'm psyched that its Gabriel instead. Like, I like many of your like Adam but that's purely as a concept. I just feel bad for the Winchester brother who got royally hosed over and want some kind of payoff. And even if it was Adam it wouldn't even be Adam, it would be Michael. Not like we even know who Adam is since he was either Michael or a ghoul most of the time we saw him. He's all concept.

But Gabriel's just an awesome reality and I'll take him every time.

Rocksicles
Oct 19, 2012

DAAAAAMN!
Put your glasses back on.


Was Gabriel Loki?

ChainsawCharlie
Jun 3, 2004
A Classic Case of Shotgun Diplomacy


Rhyno posted:

What if all the bad guys collide and merge into a giant ball of evil?

Agreed, Shrieking White-Hot Sphere Of Pure Rage for big bad of season 14.

Im still pissed and dumbfounded how they hosed up the cthulhu like mythos of the leviathans as the big bads,on a show about fighting big bad evil things.

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003
Fear my Shark Rocket

STAC Goat posted:

Am I the only one who always expects Donatello to be evil for some reason? There's something about that guy...

He was one of the best sympathetic villains in Angel, if you watched that perhaps it resonates.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


Rocksicles posted:

Was Gabriel Loki?

Yeah. The Winchesters knew him as a Trickster until Castiel showed up and recognized him as Gabriel. Then they found out he had been hiding from the angels by posing as Loki.

The awesome days.

DirtyRobot
Dec 15, 2003

it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

STAC Goat posted:

Am I the only one who always expects Donatello to be evil for some reason? There's something about that guy...


He has no soul, so either "yes," and he's just a ticking time bomb, or they're just going to keep going on the joke that even though he lost his soul he's still basically just... the same.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.


I totally forgot that.

Really, he's a weird character for me because every time he shows up I go "Who is that guy? He looks evil. Oh wait... he's a prophet? He's evil, right? He's not evil. Why's he not evil? He seems evil."

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008



Ham Wrangler

STAC Goat posted:

I totally forgot that.

Really, he's a weird character for me because every time he shows up I go "Who is that guy? He looks evil. Oh wait... he's a prophet? He's evil, right? He's not evil. Why's he not evil? He seems evil."

He's not so much evil as amoral. He doesn't have a soul or a conscience. No little voice telling him murder is bad. He has no guilt and no inhibition. Suddenly becoming soulless caused most of the victims to immediately start doing violent crimes, because they had no reason not to. They weren't able to deal with the world without the constant moralistic nagging of their soul, so the first time someone annoyed them they went all murdery.

The thing is animals also don't have souls, and most of them aren't filled with mindless violence. Most mammals only rarely kill their children or their mate. Even bears would rather steal your garbage than murder you in your bed. Constant mindless violence is a poor survival strategy.

Like an animal, Donatello has no moral objection to murder, surprise sex, theft, etc. For a human that's usually pretty evil. But, like an animal, Donatello wants to survive. So once he got over the initial rush of being free to do whatever he wants free from moral constraints, he decided he wanted most was to live and eat chicken wings. With no soul he has no afterlife to look forward to, so he's maximising his years of enjoying chicken wings on earth.

He doesn't help the Winchesters because it is morally right, he does it because helping the boys prevent the end of the world helps maximise his years of eating chicken wings. But since he is incapable of feeling warm feelings or moral obligations to them, he will drop them in an instant if it endangers him. A bit like Crowley, if Crowley had no ambition and pedestrian tastes.

Some Numbers
Sep 28, 2006

Cuteness is justice!


I completely forgot that Donatello doesn't have a soul.

Tiggum
Oct 23, 2007

Mary Worth had an illicit affair with Refurb and kidnapped Sophie when she learned the truth. Little did Sophie know, but she was held in Apartment 3G under the watchful eye of The Phantom until Dick Tracy rescued her. Meanwhile, in spite of everything, Working Daze still sucked.


Facebook Aunt posted:

Suddenly becoming soulless caused most of the victims to immediately start doing violent crimes, because they had no reason not to. They weren't able to deal with the world without the constant moralistic nagging of their soul, so the first time someone annoyed them they went all murdery.
That never made any sense. A lack of conscience wouldn't make people just go murder crazy, because even if murdering people wouldn't make you feel bad there are still other consequences. When Sam lost his soul he basically just carried on hunting monsters because he had nothing better to do.

Rocksicles
Oct 19, 2012

DAAAAAMN!
Put your glasses back on.


STAC Goat posted:

Yeah. The Winchesters knew him as a Trickster until Castiel showed up and recognized him as Gabriel. Then they found out he had been hiding from the angels by posing as Loki.

The awesome days.

That loving hoispital show episode.. hahaha good times. Originality, when Dean had fun.

Facebook Aunt
Oct 4, 2008



Ham Wrangler

Tiggum posted:

That never made any sense. A lack of conscience wouldn't make people just go murder crazy, because even if murdering people wouldn't make you feel bad there are still other consequences. When Sam lost his soul he basically just carried on hunting monsters because he had nothing better to do.

I assume it must have been the shock of sudden freedom. Like when a sheltered kid goes off to university and just goes nuts their first year.

IIRC one of the scenes was a lady who seemed to be having a nice day cooking dinner and whatnot, and then her husband starts nagging her. Just laying into her. This couple should have divorced or gone into counselling years ago. So she kills him. And then she goes back to making dinner. It wasn't that she was a bloodthirsty sort of evil, she was just fed up and snapped. But instead of yelling and throwing things, she goes right for murder. I assume the other murders were all things like that, where a lifetime of frustration suddenly finds the "Be Good" fence has a big hole in it and bursts through.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOLxQGLJouI


The only person Sam had that kind of frustration with was Dean. If Dean had been in the room when Sam came back there could have been trouble, but they didn't meet for months. By then Sam had figured out the successful sociopath math that pretending to be a normal person lets you live a more pleasant life in the long term.

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DirtyRobot
Dec 15, 2003

it was a normally happy sunny day... but Dirty Robot was dirty

Tiggum posted:

That never made any sense. A lack of conscience wouldn't make people just go murder crazy, because even if murdering people wouldn't make you feel bad there are still other consequences. When Sam lost his soul he basically just carried on hunting monsters because he had nothing better to do.
Yeah, another part of it is that you're still you, complete with your existing habits of mind and stuff like that. So if it's a habit to do the right thing in any given situation, you'll keep doing that until you realize, "Oh, wait, gently caress that." And after that first realization, your habitual go to for a bunch of stuff is still going to be the moral one, even if you constantly go against that half a second later when you realize what's happening and you don't have to do that anymore.

That was the case with Sam, at least. In the case of Donatello, I think it's honestly just half a joke ("Oh I just imagine what Mr Rogers would do") and half the writers don't feel like dealing with it.

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