Brand discussion: If x is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Brand discussion: If x is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Cyrezar posted:

Infiniti, as you may know, is owned by Nissan and for much of its history has been rebadged, slightly nicer versions of Nissan products (see: Acura). However, Infiniti has had several models which set it apart from the mainstream lineup, particularly the RWD Q45, M35/45, and the G35 sedan and coupe. The Q45 has long since been discontinued, the M is still around as a Q-something and the G35 became the G37 became the Q-something else. I refuse to look it up. They also have a monstrous SUV called the Q56 based on the Armada that looks somewhat like a bloated Escalade crossed with a catfish.

The truck that was formerly known as the QX56 (now it's the QX80 or some poo poo) is actually in the current generation unrelated to the Armada/Titan, it's actually based on the Nissan Patrol, which is Nissan's Land Cruiser competitor in other markets. By all accounts it's VERY nice inside, has a load of killer tech like cross linked dampers instead of a roll bar, and priced very reasonably - starts at $62k with lots of equipment, while the Toyota Land Cruiser starts at $80k and the LX570 starts at over $100k.

Cyrezar posted:

The only late-model Buick I see with any regularity is the Enclave crossover.

Buick is a strange brand to me...like I get why they kept it simply because of China but I don't see what the point of the brand is in the US. They used to have the 65+ demographic then Lexus ate their lunch. I have literally never known someone who owned a Buick other than a hand-me-down or expressed the slightest interest in buying one.

I mean their whole advertising campaign right now is about how people don't recognize the car they are looking at is a Buick. They have to fool people into looking at the cars, not that they are necessarily terrible.

Look at those sales figures I posted in the other thread. You don't see the point of a brand that outsells Acura, Infiniti and Audi every year, with vehicles at similar price points and large numbers of very high margin SUVs? Buick's only problem is that they are not getting *enough* product, and your problem is that you need more friends. :smug:

Here's what Buick needs to do.

- Bring over the Envision more quickly than they are doing right now.
- Bring over a Regal wagon, this vehicle already exists in the form of the Insignia wagon in Europe and would cost nothing and bring at least some traffic to the showrooms even if it doesn't sell in huge numbers. Build it in Germany, so internet wagon afficianados can be smug about it.
- For the love of god bring over a full size RWD V8 flagship i.e. the Chevy SS. Again this car already exists in other markets and would cost nothing to bring to market. It doesn't need to be a full-on performance car, Cadillac can build the performance car, it just needs to compete with the Lexus LS, Infiniti M, and Hyundai Equus. Again it probably won't sell in massive numbers but will bring a lot of credibility to the brand and little cost. How does the money for a Chevy SS exist but not for a Buick flagship? Who here even remembers the Chevy SS exists? Keep making them in Australia to keep Holden gainfully employed until Australia's resource curse passes. Either LeSabre or Park Avenue would be acceptable names for this car.
- Bring the Opel Cascada. Old people like convertibles without performance aspirations.
- I don't think cars like the Verano or Encore are vital to the brand but they already exist so I guess they can stay, but prority needs to focus on the Enclave, Envision and Regal.
- I don't believe there is any need for a Buick Camaro or ATS/CTS. They don't fit with the image of the brand. If there is a vehicle that needs a performance variant it should be the Enclave or Envision. Throw the twin turbo V6 from the XTS into the Enclave for an Enclave Turbo, don't charge *too much* for it and it should be a nice earner. It doesn't need to beat the Cayenne or X5M, but there's a healthy market of people who are willing to drop a bit more money for a comfy cruiser with effortless passing capability without the attention that a Cayenne or Range Rover Supercharged would bring.

EDIT: Also, currently the Chinese market Buicks all have the old emblem with red, white and blue shields. US market models are all silver. Are colored emblems that much more expensive? Maybe GM needs to stop being ashamed of America and use the red, white and blue badges in America too.

Since you asked, here's what Lincoln should do.

- Redo the rear end of the Navigator. I realize it just came out but the stupid rear end ruins the entire car and would probably turn off a lot of buyers on its own. Make the tail lights more expressive, give it actual exhausts instead of that silly noodle that looks like som ekind of early 90s economy car. This is galling because the Navigator on paper is a superior vehicle to the Escalade in every metric. It has more towing, the TTV6 gets better fuel economy, it has IRS, which in turn mean fold flat seats and substantially better interior capacity, by all rights it should have been a winner but they got to the rear end and just gave up. I know that there is a new F150 coming out, The Navigator customer doesn't care about that and quite frankly would probably be the kind of person who would prefer sticking with steel. Also sell this thing in China. Also give it cooled second row seats because no one else seems to offer this and the German companies seem to all suck at cooled seats, possibly because Germany isn't a very hot country.

- When the MKX comes out give it the 2.7l turbo engine. There not it's not a rebadged Ford.

- The next MKT should be based on the Explorer platform. 2.7l turbo base engine. 3.5l turbo upgrade engine.

The MKZ is fine for what it is, just focus on making them properly, the MKS can stay a rebadged Taurus, and update when the Taurus does, at this point the sedans just aren't important enough to warrant much attention, all resources need to go 100% to the SUVs with the Navigator at the top of the list. There is no point in having a 3 series competitor or a Linoln Mustang when the Navigator and MKX aren't already topping the sales charts.

Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 11:02 on Sep 27, 2014

# ¿ Sep 27, 2014 10:27

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 23:05

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Cyrezar posted:

Large SUV - Navigator, needs some design changes like you talked about especially to the rear end. Will probably be replaced in the next year or two with an all-new model. Like you said, its good on paper but when you are ready to throw down $70,000 for a new SUV it's hard to pick a Lincoln over a new Tahoe LTZ/Yukon Denali/Escalade in my opinion. Or the aforementioned Q56, I see those things everywhere. Current MSRP $61,000

The Escalade starts at $71,695, Over $10k more in starting price than the Navigator. For that amount of extra money I can live with the slightly worse interior in the Navigator, but if they could have added $1000 to the price and give it a much less terrible rear end and the car would be a winner.

Cyrezar posted:

Lincoln MKT - big crossover. I guess this is based on the Explorer but the proportions seem different? It looks so bizarre. "Although sales have been "less than stellar" at under 715 units in January 2010, that was over 10 percent of Lincoln's sales for the month. 2010 sales for the car were about one-third of the smaller MKX." Also according to Wikipedia they are trying to re-brand this to livery businesses using the Towncar name. Making this an AWD-only Explorer that slots in above the current Explorer Sport in price and features would make sense, it already stickers for $43,000. Call the new one the Aviator again.

The MKT is actually closely related to the Ford Flex, which is kind of the same platform as the Explorer but obviously quite different - the Flex is meant to be a minivan. The Flex/MKT actually work pretty well as livery vehicles, the top end model has the aforementioned cooled rear seats, with leather from the same UK supplier that goes into Range Rovers and such. With a big ol panoramic sunroof and the 3.5l turbo engine it's a perfect family hauler but the styling is just too weird for most women to accept, which is why they need to go to an Explorer based vehicle instead. It's not a bad idea to have both, an Explorer based Aviator as well as retaining the current Towncar/MKT. My problem would be what would you power a neuen Aviator with? Make the Explorer Sport powertrain standard? It's a good idea for places like China that don't get the big engined Explorer but I'm skeptical about how much differentiation there can be between this and the Explorer.

quote:

I completely agree with you about the RWD flagship and the return of the colored badges. Not sure about using the LeSabre or Park Avenue names when you have cool poo poo like Invicta, Electra, Wildcat, Skylark (comedy option: Reatta) etc...It's like when they were handing out cool car names Buick got all the good ones. I think using the LeSabre and Park Avenue names would also make most people think of their grandma's Buick and I'd want to do as much as possible to not remind anyone of the styling in the 90's and 2000's.

I think all those names referred to smaller compact or midsize cars? Except Invicta which I have no idea about. The old LeSabres were actually pretty decent vehicles for the time and well regarded, I think there's some brand equity there, and the Chinese market Buick Commodore/SS is already called Park Avenue, so you can keep using the same badges and have one name across markets.

quote:

Of note is that Buick is currently the only GM brand without a full-size SUV. I'm not sure where one would fit in with the lineup or indeed the image of the brand but higher profit margins never hurt. Maybe call it the Buick Estate and have it be a more....subdued version of the Escalade for several thousand dollars less.

The original reason why GMC and Chevy co-existed was that GM had 2 different dealership models, you were either a Chevy/Olds/Caddy and a Pontiac/Buick/GMC. It's kind of all fallen apart now, but Buick and GMC still tend to share the same showrooms so I kind of question the need for a Buick Suburban - it doesn't really fit the brand's image and in any case anyone who was going to buy a GM truck will see the GMC right across the showroom floor. It's one of those things that would be all right back when GM had 70% domestic market share but right now they've got bigger problems they need to deal with.

The Enclave should have been named Roadmaster from the start, but it's too late to change that now. If there was to be a Buick full size then Roadmaster is the only acceptable name.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2014 15:09

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

mariooncrack posted:

I must be crazy but I actually really like my girlfriend's 2014 Corolla's interior. After trying out various Hondas, Nissans, and Fords, it was the only interior that didn't feel cheap and super plasticy. I am sure now when I sit in her car that I'll start finding things in the interior that I don't like now.

Well that 1980s digital clock is a bit....retro, but yeah, other than that, Car mags tend to exaggerate the differences between the interiors of common economy cars a bit, because it's a lot more interesting to read than "it's all the same cheap plastic poo poo who cares".

# ¿ Sep 27, 2014 15:14

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

razorscooter posted:

I agreed with most of your stuff about Buick, but I'm kind of curious, what would a rear wheel drive V8 Buick do for GM other than stepping on Cadillac's toes? They've already got a decent full size sedan in the form of the Lacrosse, and I can't imagine what it would lack compared to some kind of hypothetical 2016 Electra or whatever.

If the car didn't already exist then the case for coming up with one from scratch would be a bit more tenuous. It will give Buick the credibility of a luxury brand the same way the LS does for Lexus, another brand that mostly sells FWD cars and also a major Buick competitor.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2014 05:40

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Well anyway back to trucks that people actually buy.

quote:

'Toughnology' Concept Shows Silverado's Built-In Strength

High-strength steel body structure supports capability, reduces weight, cost

2014-09-25
DALLAS � High-strength steel makes the Chevrolet Silverado lighter, stronger and more efficient than the conventional carbon steel used in most vehicles. Those attributes are highlighted in the simulated raw steel appearance of the new Silverado Toughnology concept.

The concept is also a showcase for Silverado's connectivity technologies � including all-new OnStar 4G LTE with built-in Wi-Fi hotspot � as well as accessories and performance parts available through Chevrolet dealers.

"The technology of advanced high-strength steel makes the Chevrolet Silverado stronger, lighter, more capable and more efficient � and that's exactly what the Toughnology concept represents," said Jeff Luke, executive chief engineer. "During the Silverado's development, we evaluated all materials and chose those that would provide the best strength to support capability while still delivering a strong value to customers.

"High-strength steel had clear advantages and is a contributor to the overall package that made Silverado the 2014 North American Truck of the Year."

High-strength steel, which is pressed while still in molten form, can be up to 30 percent lighter than carbon steel with the same strength. It offers significant mass savings at a lower cost than aluminum, which helps keep down the overall vehicle cost. Lower weight translates to greater efficiency and capability for truck owners.

The 2015 Silverado 1500 with the EcotTec3 5.3L V-8 engine is EPA-estimated at 23 mpg on the highway and offers a maximum trailering capacity of 11,200 pounds, per newly adopted SAE J2807 Recommended Practices. With the available 6.2L V-8 engine and all-new eight-speed automatic transmission, the Silverado's trailering capacity increases to 12,000 pounds.

The Silverado Toughnology concept wears most of its high-strength steel under the skin, just like every production model. Approximately 67 percent of each Silverado cab is constructed of the durable material, including stronger ultra-high-strength steel. It is used in the A-pillars, B-pillars, rockers and roof rails, as well strategic sections on the interior structure. Ultra-high-strength steel is used in areas of the rocker panels and underbody to help improve performance in crashes.

The 2015 Silverado 1500 crew cab model earned a 5-Star Safety Rating � the highest rating � in government crash testing.

Lightweight strength extends to the Silverado's pickup box, where the floor is made of roll-formed steel. It's more durable than the conventional stamped steel used by other manufacturers and it's lighter than the material used for stamped parts, further reducing vehicle weight.

The Silverado also strategically uses aluminum, including the hood, which saves 17 pounds over a conventional stamped steel hood.

"We put the best materials to use where they'll do the most good," said Luke. "Every panel, inside and out, is designed to support the Silverado's capability and carry on its position as America's most dependable, longest-lasting truck."

Concept features

The Toughnology concept is striking for its stripped-down appearance. The paint job mimics the look of raw, unpainted steel and is accented with steel molecule graphics. The hood � the only visible metal exterior component that isn't steel � is painted black.

Additional black and chrome exterior accents complement the raw steel appearance, along with Chevrolet Accessory 22-inch wheels mounted on off-road tires. The special content includes:

Chevrolet Accessories grille insert
Tubular assist steps
Soft, folding tonneau cover
Washable carpet bedliner
Fender flares
Tinted headlamp lenses.

Performance capability upgrades include a performance exhaust system and upgraded performance brakes. Under the hood is a performance air intake system on its 5.3L engine rated at 355 horsepower and 383 lb-ft of torque.

Inside, the Silverado Toughnology wears LTZ trim, including heated, leather-appointed bucket seats. It also features the available rear-seat entertainment system and Silverado's latest connectivity features, including OnStar 4G LTE with built-in Wi-Fi hotspot and a wireless phone-charging mat that recharges phones via a magnetic inductive charge.

The available OnStar with 4G LTE and built-in Wi-Fi hotspot provides a mobile hub for drivers and passengers to stay connected. The hotspot is on whenever the vehicle is on and comes with a three-month/three-gigabyte data trial (whichever comes first). 4G LTE is the most current and fastest mobile data network � 10 times faster than 3G and 100 times faster than OnStar's previous generation hardware.

Founded in 1911 in Detroit, Chevrolet is now one of the world's largest car brands, doing business in more than 140 countries and selling more than 4.9 million cars and trucks a year. Chevrolet provides customers with fuel-efficient vehicles that feature spirited performance, expressive design, and high quality. More information on Chevrolet models can be found at https://www.chevrolet.com.

I feel like they are really painting themselves into a corner, marketing wise.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2014 00:44

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Fucknag posted:

For all the taglines about how it "reduces weight" vs aluminum, I don't actually see any numbers in there for curb weight.

It doesn't say that, it says

quote:

It offers significant mass savings at a lower cost than aluminum, which helps keep down the overall vehicle cost.

I'm not sure if Ford has released official curb weights for the F-150 yet, but the previous Silverado was already ~400lbs lighter than the previous F-150, The OHV enigine alone probably saves a bunch of weight over Ford's DOHC engine, so the difference isn't as pronounced as Ford would like you to believe.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2014 12:59

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Left Ventricle posted:

Basically you're saying:
-Rebadge the Equinox, again (Terrain)
-Rebadge a European station wagon, even though Americans hate wagons now, with a name that, historically, has not been associated with a wagon body style (Regal)
-Rebadge an AUS car, which has been done twice already (SS, G8)
-Rebagde a tiny European cabriolet which won't perform well or get good fuel economy because of the added weight
-Keep the rebadged Cruze and Trax
-Don't rebadge a RWD performance car

The Envision is not a rebadged Equinox, it's based on the new European/Other World midsize SUV platform that will also underpin a new Opel Antara. Since the Equinox/Terrain are getting fairly old they will be replaced at some point, possibly with another vehicle based on the same platform as the Envision, but possibly not. We don't know yet. The ENvision already exists and is already coming, so it's sort of a moot point now but it's the right car for the market presently.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2014 05:35

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

Left Ventricle posted:

-Rebadge a European station wagon, even though Americans hate wagons now, with a name that, historically, has not been associated with a wagon body style (Regal)
-Rebadge an AUS car, which has been done twice already (SS, G8)
-Rebagde a tiny European cabriolet which won't perform well or get good fuel economy because of the added weight
-Keep the rebadged Cruze and Trax
-Don't rebadge a RWD performance car

- The wagon already exists, all the engineering has been done and the incremental cost to bring it over(Keep building them in Germany) isn't that much in the big scheme, it's a niche product but it can be profitable.Other car companies can take a page from BMW when it comes to niche products like manual transmissions or wagons. It's not a big market but they are your best customers.
- Again, all this still already exists.
- Thrice more, it already exists, make it stylish and it will sell, lots of people want a convertible and don't want a Corvette or Camaro. The old Sebring cab sold well, this can too.
- The Verano isn't an ideal product for the US market, better for China, but it's getting to the end of its life soo and will be replaced by something that will be on a shared platform with the Envision. The Encore, well, I don't like the idea personally but tiny SUVs are all the rage right now. MB/Audi/BMW all have them, SUbaru has one and Honda will soon as well. Don't price the Buick version too low and it's fine.
- Buick doesn't need a Z28 because it's not part of the brand identity. They *could* use a twin turbo Enclave though.

Left Ventricle posted:

Do I have that right? You're more or less saying that New GM should continue doing some of the same things Old GM did that led it to ruin.

Reminder: GM spread the GMT360 platform across SEVEN brands!
-Chevrolet Trailblazer (and SSR)
-GMC Envoy
-Isuzu Ascender
-Saab 9-7X
-Oldsmobile Bravada
-Buick Rainier
-Hummer H3

The only differentiation I can think of between all those trucks is that the Saab had the ignition switch on the console, the Envoy had that convertible cargo area roof, and the H3 tried its damnedest to look like a 3/4 scale H2 and had the 5 cylinder from the Colorado which made it a punk in the performance department.

GMC is still around because of brand recognition. People still believe GMC is not just Chevy trucks with different body panels. This is despite the fact that, back in the 80s and 90s, Chevy and GMC even shared a truck nameplate (Suburban) with little to no alterations! But it sells, so keep it.

Don't get me wrong. GM has made huge leaps in the quality department, by pulling their heads out of their collective rear end and learning how to properly put a car together from their EU arm. They've certainly come a long way from the Citation and Cavalier. But the last thing they need to do is more rebadging. The XTS is a prime example. They're trying to make it a bit different with the V, which has the turbo 3.6 with 400 goddamn horsepower and four wheel drive, but it's still on a pedestrian front-drive platform. Cadillac has always been about leading the company in styling and technology, and that seems like a step backward.

So I guess it's a good thing that the GMT360 and half those brands are dead then? The GMT 360 was the right product at the right time as well and made a boatload of money.

The XTS is really a Chinese market play above everything else. Any incremental sales they get elsewhere is just gravy.

Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 08:33 on Sep 30, 2014

# ¿ Sep 30, 2014 08:28

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

angryhampster posted:

IMO the XTS is perfect for their primary demographic for large cars. It's by-and-large older people probably looking for a cruiser. I imagine the XTS is a dream on the highway. It's ungodly comfortable and beautiful inside.

It's done all right, but if they didn't have it buyers of GM large cars would probably have bought Lacross or Impala instead. They don't really need it in North America and it's not really the best representative of the Cadillac brand. The problem is that in China they need something to compete with the FWD Audi A6L that makes up the bulk of premium car sales and it needs to be built in China by SAIC. The Lacross is OK but Buick can't command Audi prices, they use to have the old STS-L but obviously that's long gone, the new CTS is 1)new, 2)would need a LWB variant which we have not seen yet, and 3)GM probably doesn't want to start building the CTS in China just yet - obviously it would cost money and Cadillac volumes aren't there to justify it and they are(or should be) wary of transferring any more technology and new platforms to SAIC than they need to. The LaCross is already built by SAIC in China, so the platform shared XTS can be set up for production easily, and it being FWD is no issue in China where the most common luxury car on the road is a FWD 180hp Audi A6, while Americans certainly know the difference between it and a 5 series.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2014 14:45

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 23:05

Throatwarbler: Nov 17, 2008; by vyelkin

So it looks like Honda might finally be getting into the BOF truck game.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/10/08/honda-ridgeline-going-mainstream/

It's about time, the pundits are saying it will probably be a small/midsize instead of a half ton but I would love a shot across the bow of the dumbestic carmakers in the form of a full size Honda truck.

# ¿ Oct 9, 2014 15:17

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Brand discussion: If x is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.