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Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





tarlibone posted:

I like cargo pants. Is there anything wrong with 5.11 pants? Are they run by chuds or something?

They're the Coca-Cola of tactical cosplay. Amusingly they were spun off from the Royal Robbins clothing company and were originally created by Robbins himself when he got annoyed that nobody made rock climbing pants that would hold up. 5.11 refers to the maximum difficulty on the Yosemite rock climbing scale, also created by Robbins. The original 5.11 pants are a good durable garment, and were first seized upon by students at the FBI Academy and they took off from there.

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Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES



infrared35 posted:

For my anti-grayman money, I wear Vertx pants instead of 5.11. And a Magpul jacket. And a Centrifuge Training hat.

Itís a shame Magpul messed up their clothing line so badly because the first generation of Flex pants were some of the best all around pants that Iíve ever worn.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Midjack posted:

They're the Coca-Cola of tactical cosplay. Amusingly they were spun off from the Royal Robbins clothing company and were originally created by Robbins himself when he got annoyed that nobody made rock climbing pants that would hold up. 5.11 refers to the maximum difficulty on the Yosemite rock climbing scale, also created by Robbins. The original 5.11 pants are a good durable garment, and were first seized upon by students at the FBI Academy and they took off from there.

Oh, OK. Good to know. Like I said, I'd never heard of them until 5/11, when MIdwayUSA decided to throw a sale on their products for some crazy reason I'll never understand.

armorer
Aug 6, 2012

I like metal.

Midjack posted:

They're the Coca-Cola of tactical cosplay. Amusingly they were spun off from the Royal Robbins clothing company and were originally created by Robbins himself when he got annoyed that nobody made rock climbing pants that would hold up. 5.11 refers to the maximum difficulty on the Yosemite rock climbing scale, also created by Robbins. The original 5.11 pants are a good durable garment, and were first seized upon by students at the FBI Academy and they took off from there.

Just a point regarding the Yosemite decimal system - 5.x was originally supposed to go from 5.0 to 5.9, with 5.9 being the hardest thing a human could climb without the use of aid devices. Naturally that was dumb, and stuff was climbed that was harder than stuff that had already been graded 5.9, so they made it open ended and 5.10, 5.11, and so on was born. It may be the case that 5.11 was the hardest known at the time the brand was named, I'm not sure. Nowadays though the hardest stuff is 5.15d. (Stuff over 5.10 or 5.11 now gets further subdivided into a/b/c/d.)

Edit: vvvvvvvv
Lol, if they were spun off after 2003, 5.11 at that point wasn't even considered "hard" anymore. Being able to consistently climb 5.12 and up is mandatory if you want to be considered professional, really with 5.13 and up being ideal. That's not to pooh-pooh 5.11 climbers, it's just not a high bar to set. A fit person who climbs 3 days a week for 2 or 3 years (typically less) can expect to climb 5.11.

armorer fucked around with this message at 01:37 on May 15, 2021

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





tarlibone posted:

Oh, OK. Good to know. Like I said, I'd never heard of them until 5/11, when MIdwayUSA decided to throw a sale on their products for some crazy reason I'll never understand.

Yeah the pants are pretty good, my pair from when they were still RR branded in 2003 are still useable though I don't wear them outside of the house anymore. After the 5.11 brand was spun off it's embraced the LE/PMC/tactical cosplay market more fully, and some of the other products are a little half baked but from what I hear the 5.11 tactical pants are still solid, if somewhat overpriced. The suggestion upthread to also look at Duluth, Carhartt, and Patagonia is a good one.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

Midjack posted:

Yeah the pants are pretty good, my pair from when they were still RR branded in 2003 are still useable though I don't wear them outside of the house anymore. After the 5.11 brand was spun off it's embraced the LE/PMC/tactical cosplay market more fully, and some of the other products are a little half baked but from what I hear the 5.11 tactical pants are still solid, if somewhat overpriced. The suggestion upthread to also look at Duluth, Carhartt, and Patagonia is a good one.

I'm not sure what tactical pants are. Well, more specifically, I don't know what makes them different than cargo pants. But, to be fair, I mostly laugh at civilians who cosplay tactical stuff, because I think that 79% of the time, they're not aware that they're cosplaying.

There's a Duluth not too awful far away, and it's near a chicken strip place I've been meaning to try out. The Farm & Home here in town has all kinds of Carhartt. Serious question: is there something that makes, say, Carhartt pants better than regular blue jeans from the 'marts when it comes to concealed carry? Other than the fact that Carhartt are almost bulletproof in comparison to Wranglers, I mean. Is it just the extra pockets? Do people carry in those pockets? I don't pocket-carry, but I hate my wife's LCPII, and the smallest gun I carry is my Taurus 605 snubby.

Of course, it just now occurred to me that maybe you're not talking about blue jeans. Sorry, I have an office job. I own one pair of pants for physical work (besides blue jeans), a "Utility Pant" that I got at Sam's Club. They're a little stretchy, which I loathe, but the pockets have zippers, and I wore them for a solid week while doing home improvement projects around the house. I like them.

Akion
May 7, 2006


Grimey Drawer

I have a pair of Helikon Tex pants and they feel reasonably well built.

Tyro
Nov 10, 2009


Midjack posted:

Yeah the pants are pretty good, my pair from when they were still RR branded in 2003 are still useable though I don't wear them outside of the house anymore. After the 5.11 brand was spun off it's embraced the LE/PMC/tactical cosplay market more fully, and some of the other products are a little half baked but from what I hear the 5.11 tactical pants are still solid, if somewhat overpriced. The suggestion upthread to also look at Duluth, Carhartt, and Patagonia is a good one.

Yeah i don't wear the current 5.11 stuff, these days I'm more of a Vertx/whatever's at REI aka Patagonia/Kuhl/Prana/etc guy (that Magpul closeout sale stuff has held up pretty well too), but I had a couple pairs of the original RR in the late 90s or early 2000s and they lasted forever. I've heard the new stuff isn't as good.

glynnenstein
Feb 18, 2014



tarlibone posted:

I'm not sure what tactical pants are. Well, more specifically, I don't know what makes them different than cargo pants.

Depending on the particular item they usually have extra pocked sized just right for an AR or Glock magazine, which is why I use some 5.11 pants for shooting competitions. At a glance walking around the world they do mostly just look like regular dorky cargo pants.

B-Rock452
Jan 6, 2005




5.11 makes the only tactical pant that make my butt look good which is key when it comes to looking cool at the range.

I did get a really dirty look from an instructor who told his class that they shouldn't wear any 5.11 gear "in the real world" since if they get in a shootout the bad guy would see the 5.11 clothes and know they have to target them first and I started laughing so hard a few lanes down that I almost choked. Really surprised I didn't get kicked out of the range...

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

B-Rock452 posted:

5.11 makes the only tactical pant that make my butt look good which is key when it comes to looking cool at the range.

I did get a really dirty look from an instructor who told his class that they shouldn't wear any 5.11 gear "in the real world" since if they get in a shootout the bad guy would see the 5.11 clothes and know they have to target them first and I started laughing so hard a few lanes down that I almost choked. Really surprised I didn't get kicked out of the range...

Oh man, I love the myths and legends about supercriminals that are based on what an idiot thinks criminals would do if they had access to CSI: Miami levels of organization, personnel, and tech, and if that's what criminals used to pick their targets. I'm pretty sure your average bad guy has never heard of 5.11 pants, and even if they had, it's unlikely that they will scan a crowd of potential targets and aim for that person first.

And it's usually the tactilols who seem to think like this. "I'm Captain Tactical Badass, and let me tell you, if I were doing a mass shooting, I'd pick out anyone with 5.11 pants, or belt clips that suggested they were concealing a weapon, and I'd take them out first, because that makes the most tactical sense. Therefore, since that is how a tactical genius like me would handle this hypothetical situation that I carefully constructed to show what a tactical genius I tactical am, that's exactly how any criminal or mass shooter would also do it."

It reminds me of when those stick figure rear window decals got popular, and all of the sudden, CONCERNED CITIZENS started warning against their use, because if you have them on your window and you're parked at a public place like a grocery store, what will happen when a criminal walks by? Well, he'll see that the man stick figure is in the Army, so he's clearly deployed and not a threat--the woman is home alone. He'll see the kids, and know she'll be compliant because he can leverage their safety, which she will care the most about. He'll see that there is a dog, so he'll bring some peanut butter to neutralize him. Then he'll prepare precisely for what he now knows he'll find when he breaks into your house, and you will be essentially defenseless because he now knows all of your secrets.

(I'm guessing that's how burglars and home invaders pick their targets--looking for clues on cars, writing down license plate numbers, hiring a company to run the plates and give him the address, preparing for that exact encounter, and pulling off the perfect crime.)

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


Was just having a theoretical discussion with a friend about whether you could sell Kevlar boot laces to gravy seals and whether there would be heated online arguments about how you shouldn't use them because a medic might need to cut them.

Gun guys love to argue a silly edge case.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Reminder: if you ainít a grayman, you ainít poo poo

Boner Wad
Nov 16, 2003


I too have an ANR holster and I like them more than what I've previously used. I also like the monoblock, I ordered them off of the ANR site.

I also wear 5.11 shorts and pants because they are mostly comfortable. I tried them and now I know my size now, so I don't have to guess. I have yet to be accosted by someone asking me to model for their conceal carry article or targeted in any of the armed robberies I was present for (none). I might try out some other brands but they also seem super expensive, like Kuhl.

Monolith.
Jan 28, 2011

To save the world from the expanding Zone.


tarlibone posted:

I got something from Midway USA about 5.11 pants, and until then, I had no idea that was a thing.

Tactical pants.

I like cargo pants. Is there anything wrong with 5.11 pants? Are they run by chuds or something?

I have a couple pairs of plain khakis and a two of their khaki shorts. Works great for pocket carry and they're really tough.

Blight Runner
May 3, 2009


Internet Wizard posted:

Itís a shame Magpul messed up their clothing line so badly because the first generation of Flex pants were some of the best all around pants that Iíve ever worn.

I missed out on the shorts. But I did get to snag a few of the short and long sleeve shirts. The only issue I had was one of the buttons on the wrist broke off, but it can still snap in place with the remaining one. It was like, barely attached when I got it. Still love it since it uses those snap buttons instead of normal buttons. Easy on, easy off! I'll have to find a decent replacement when I wear these out.

Shrieking Muppet
Jul 16, 2006


The only 511 stuff I wear is the TDU belt since its one of the few belts I've bought that hasn't fallen apart from use and continues to fit me with my weight fluctuations.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Gimme Gimme Swedish Fish...



Fallen Rib

Shrieking Muppet posted:

The only 511 stuff I wear is the TDU belt since its one of the few belts I've bought that hasn't fallen apart from use and continues to fit me with my weight fluctuations.

Try The Wilderness's instructors belt.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Grayman level: 11

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


I hope he always wears pants so he's not targeted first by the master criminals who are robbing the gas station where he's buying some slim jims.

PhotoKirk
Jul 2, 2007

insert witty text here


stealie72 posted:

I hope he always wears pants so he's not targeted first by the master criminals who are robbing the gas station where he's buying some slim jims.

I do prison ministry and I've asked guys about the whole "OC/CC/non-grey man" theories. Unsurprisingly, the response from every "hardened criminal" I've talked to is "rob someplace else" if they think someone is carrying.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

PhotoKirk posted:

I do prison ministry and I've asked guys about the whole "OC/CC/non-grey man" theories. Unsurprisingly, the response from every "hardened criminal" I've talked to is "rob someplace else" if they think someone is carrying.

That's just what someone would say if they were targeting people who are carrying, though. They are trying to lull you into a false sense of security. You are not only going to be targeted first, but they may already be targeting you.

Better get some dress slacks and shirts with anti-gun slogans on them. That is the only way to trick them into thinking that you hate guns, and that is the only way to delay your inevitable targeting for long enough to pull a gun from one of those crotch holsters.

Master tacticians, the lot of them.

Akion
May 7, 2006


Grimey Drawer

If you are always naked, nobody will assume you are carrying.

That's when you strike.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Akion posted:

If you are always naked, nobody will assume you are carrying.

That's when you strike.

The Ruger SR9C is the most comfortable "serious" gun I've ever kiestered. Just sayin'.

Akion
May 7, 2006


Grimey Drawer

infrared35 posted:

The Ruger SR9C is the most comfortable "serious" gun I've ever kiestered. Just sayin'.

I've always figured the Sig Anti-Snag guns would work well. Nice, rounded edges.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Akion posted:

I've always figured the Sig Anti-Snag guns would work well. Nice, rounded edges.

Never tried 'em, but you're probably right.

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


Akion posted:

If you are always naked, nobody will assume you are carrying.

That's when you strike.
Potential perps will look at my flabby, lovely, pale body and keep on walking. Good strategy.

Toshokan
Apr 11, 2008
Prepare yourself for some obtuse logic--->


PhotoKirk posted:

I do prison ministry and I've asked guys about the whole "OC/CC/non-grey man" theories. Unsurprisingly, the response from every "hardened criminal" I've talked to is "rob someplace else" if they think someone is carrying.

That and if it's more of a crime of passion (e.g., road rage), some angry rear end in a top hat trying to harm you for some dumb reason isn't going to be paying attention to fine details to see if you're printing or wearing some tacticool bullshit. They're blinded by rage and aren't thinking clearly.

So much of the circle-jerking about CC, grayman, etc. is based on people projecting their perspectives onto other people and running all these hypothetical scenarios in their heads instead of looking at what actually happens in these situations.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




The thing that makes me laugh at every Gun Magazine's version of a Grey Man has nothing to do with printing or carrying.

Each loving picture looks like a t-shirt tucked in, operator bearded, Oakley wearing, plaid pattern somewhere, flat front khaki, zero panache having weirdo. It's basically every person you've ever seen step out of one of those ALWAYS RED trucks on a lift kit with those side mirrors that stick off the doors a full yard.

Akion
May 7, 2006


Grimey Drawer

I accomplish grey man status by looking like a typical aging Colorado tech hipster. Manbun, beard, flannel, and a perpetual laptop bag that may or may not have a Glock in it if it's not tucked in my waistband.

Though I have also been accused of looking like a John Wick extra when my hair is down.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

The highest grayman compliment I got was from a new coworker (but a veteran of the agency) who saw me out and about off duty and said, ďyou donít look like a cop.Ē

I perceived it as a compliment anyway.

Captain Log
Oct 2, 2006

Captain Log posted:

"I AINT DYING! Choo choo motherfucker!"




People who were looking for undercover cops always thought I was one, before the leg braces. But that had more to do with my posture and haircut than how I dressed, because most days I dressed like a chubby Henry Rollins. If someone is worried about an undercover cop, the plain dressed white guy is always going to fit.

Now that I'm sporting leg braces, I can just fully express looking on the outside how I do on the inside - strange and prone to paisley patterns.

tarlibone
Aug 1, 2014

Am I a... bad person?
AM I??





Fun Shoe

I like cargo pants and blue jeans, and tucked in T-shirts (ever since my humongous days) and flannel. When I'm carrying, I am not printing unless I'm bending over to get something off the shelf at the local supermarket. I like plaid and wish I owned more of it!

... am I a gray man?

I mean, I don't usually wear sunglasses inside--I take them off if I was wearing them outside; that way, I can see better inside. I am bearded, but except for the first week after a monthly mowing of the face lawn, my beard isn't neatly cut, even, and stylish. I look like a guy who is planning on being full-ZZ-Top within five years.

infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Sounds to me like youíre ready for some Operator Cosplay.

poeticoddity
Jan 14, 2007
"How nice - to feel nothing and still get full credit for being alive." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. - Slaughterhouse Five

Every article I've ever read about the "gray man" concept has at least had the decency to let me know that, at my height/build, there's about a 0% chance I'll go unnoticed.

I do, however, take solace in knowing that I'm "lizard brain triggering".
During undergrad I was walking with three friends (all normal height/build) and a blindingly drunk guy who was screaming at the friend who was desperately trying to wrangle him into a cab caught sight of us and decided that's where his misguided verbal anger needed to be.
I will never forget him pointing at us in sequence and screaming, "gently caress YOU, AND gently caress YOU, AND...not him, because he's big...AND gently caress YOU!"
That dude was probably too drunk to work a zipper, but something in the back of his mind said, "Maybe don't do that."

tarlibone posted:

I like cargo pants and blue jeans, and tucked in T-shirts (ever since my humongous days) and flannel. When I'm carrying, I am not printing unless I'm bending over to get something off the shelf at the local supermarket. I like plaid and wish I owned more of it!

... am I a gray man?

I mean, I don't usually wear sunglasses inside--I take them off if I was wearing them outside; that way, I can see better inside. I am bearded, but except for the first week after a monthly mowing of the face lawn, my beard isn't neatly cut, even, and stylish. I look like a guy who is planning on being full-ZZ-Top within five years.

I'm pretty sure you're going to be on someone's radar if you're visibly wearing cargo pants and blue jeans.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



I'm the ultimate gray man because I'm almost always dressed in outfits that no serious gun nut would ever wear. The red jungle bird shirt from Magnum PI with blue shorts and espadrilles. A nice linen shirt with tight khakis and dress shoes. Incredibly drunk with a massive rum drink in my hand at all times. Nobody would suspect me.

Because the Ruger LCP 2 is that small, and Florida is that hot.

Akion
May 7, 2006


Grimey Drawer

chitoryu12 posted:

I'm the ultimate gray man because I'm almost always dressed in outfits that no serious gun nut would ever wear. The red jungle bird shirt from Magnum PI with blue shorts and espadrilles. A nice linen shirt with tight khakis and dress shoes. Incredibly drunk with a massive rum drink in my hand at all times. Nobody would suspect me.

Because the Ruger LCP 2 is that small, and Florida is that hot.

If I saw someone wearing a Hawaiian or jungle bird shirt I would 100% assume they are concealing an AR Pistol.

Toshokan
Apr 11, 2008
Prepare yourself for some obtuse logic--->


Akion posted:

If I saw someone wearing a Hawaiian or jungle bird shirt I would 100% assume they are concealing an AR Pistol.

No, there are two kinds of guys who wear Hawaiian shirts: gay guys and big fat party animals.

Polka_Rapper
Jan 22, 2011


Toshokan posted:

No, there are two kinds of guys who wear Hawaiian shirts: gay guys and big fat party animals.

I mean, I'm actually from Hawaii so I wear them all the time (even though I don't live there currently) and I don't match either of those descriptions.

but I know people that do

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infrared35
Jan 12, 2005

border patrol qt


Plaster Town Cop

Toshokan posted:

No, there are two kinds of guys who wear Hawaiian shirts: gay guys and big fat party animals.

And Weird Al fans. Which doesn't really rule out either of those two options.

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