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Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


HF was really boring for me almost the entire time if it didn't involve Kotomine. Then the last day happened and I was like "loving FINALLY."

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Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Rodyle posted:

She was actually like, 6th or 7th in the female character poll somehow. She beat Kohaku. She beat Kohaku.
Unless this was done in like 2005 beating a Tsukihime character these days doesn't really mean much unless it's Arcueid.

As for Heaven's Feel, the start of it is actually really interesting because things go off the rails pretty quickly and you keep going "Wait, what?". It's the middle where Shirou and Rin are just sort of dicking around the town where things grind to a halt. Followed up by of course the bloodbath of the final two days. I love UBW but its greatest strength is how consistently good it is top-to-bottom; it doesn't quiiiiite have the closure or even the fights needed to wrap up the whole thing. Heaven's Feel was able to provide just that.

E: vvv

Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Oct 12, 2014

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I liked the cooking scenes.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


I liked the whole Heaven's Feel route, including the early bits.

They helped to establish that the Holy Grail War was completely off the rails and create a mounting sense of despair, impotence and hopelessness, so there was tremendous pay-off once the poo poo went down. The HF finale would be a lot less memorable without all the build-up.

Plus, it had few nice, tense, almost horror-like moments, like the scenes at Ryuudou Temple or the confrontation between Shirou and Zouken at Matou household, that were kind of nifty, if not as cool as the big battles.

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Okay, now that there's a thread to post spoilers in, how do you think the UBW anime will tackle Rin seeing Archer's past in her dreams? Those scenes were rather important in establishing Rin's character, showcasing in particular how similar she is to Shirou in some aspects, and I'm not sure if they'll survive the adaptation.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Aumanor posted:

Okay, now that there's a thread to post spoilers in, how do you think the UBW anime will tackle Rin seeing Archer's past in her dreams? Those scenes were rather important in establishing Rin's character, showcasing in particular how similar she is to Shirou in some aspects, and I'm not sure if they'll survive the adaptation.

That actually seems like the easiest part of the adaption? Just show the dream, and make it clear it's Rin's by showing her sleeping or whatever.

Honestly I think the Archer/Shirou battle is a nightmare to adapt since it takes place entirely inside his head, but for some reason people are looking forward to that one being animated.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

Clarste posted:

That actually seems like the easiest part of the adaption? Just show the dream, and make it clear it's Rin's by showing her sleeping or whatever.

Honestly I think the Archer/Shirou battle is a nightmare to adapt since it takes place entirely inside his head, but for some reason people are looking forward to that one being animated.

What I really want to see animated is Nine Bullet Revolver in Heavens Feel. That and Sparks Liner High blows every other fight scene out of the water.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Sakura is my favourite by default because she doesn't lecture you endlessly about pointless bullshit.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


I am so excited for Shiro's UBW, you don't even know. That's my favorite fight scene in the whole series where Shiro is keeping up with the strongest servant and all he needed was extra mana from Rin to make it all happen. He just outclasses Gilgamesh in a one-on-one fight and it's the most amazing thing since all Shiro has done prior to that is lose.

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Sakura is my favourite by default because she doesn't lecture you endlessly about pointless bullshit.

Nah, she just IS pointless bullshit incarnate.

point of return
Aug 13, 2011

by exmarx


Rin is the best because she spends a large amount of time just making fun of Shiro for being an idiot.

Aumanor
Nov 9, 2012


Clarste posted:

That actually seems like the easiest part of the adaption? Just show the dream, and make it clear it's Rin's by showing her sleeping or whatever.

The point is that until the end of the third dream, it seems that it's Shirou who's dreaming, not Rin.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



I'm real scared they'll take the easy way out and make Archer vs Shirou and Gil vs Shirou into swordfights. I want to believe in UFOtable but so much of FSN is inner monologue, mostly form Shirou but also from other characters in the various interludes, including flashbacks from characters like Berserker and Caster. It's the sort of stuff where if you try to show the scene from outside the character's head with none of that narration it won't play correctly, and a lot of those inner monologues got cut in Zero's anime.


point of return posted:

Rin is the best because she spends a large amount of time just making fun of Shiro for being an idiot.

They're by far the most believable couple of the three main pairings.

SALT CURES HAM
Jan 3, 2011


Aumanor posted:

The point is that until the end of the third dream, it seems that it's Shirou who's dreaming, not Rin.

I mean, would it really screw anything up if they just made it obviously Rin's dream from the start?

e: Archer vs Shirou would work perfectly if they made Shirou's inner dialogue narration or rewrote it as a back-and-forth between the two.

SALT CURES HAM fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Oct 12, 2014

Randomzx
Jul 26, 2007


Beef Waifu posted:

I am so excited for Shiro's UBW, you don't even know. That's my favorite fight scene in the whole series where Shiro is keeping up with the strongest servant and all he needed was extra mana from Rin to make it all happen. He just outclasses Gilgamesh in a one-on-one fight and it's the most amazing thing since all Shiro has done prior to that is lose.

No, he could only fight Gilgamesh because UBW is a hard counter to GoB.

1) UBW could fire more NPs per second compared to Gilgamesh, because all the swords are already 'ready'. And thus Gilgamesh have to defend against stray NPs too.
2) Shirou can instantly replace the weapons in his hand while Gilgamesh have to manually pull them out.
3) Shirou could download the techniques, but his body can't keep up (even in HF), but Gilgamesh was only a owner, and have not mastered any of his Noble Phantasm like the other heroes did.
Even with all those advantages, Shirou had to be relentless and strike while the iron was hot, because he knew if Gilgamesh regains composure he would be screwed, this was stated by Shirou himself.

He explicitly stated that even in UBW he wouldn't be a match against other servants.

quote:

Even in this world, I am no match against any other Servants.
I cannot match the ultimate one even with infinite swords.
Gilgamesh must have the ability, but I do not.
Therefore---this is the only Servant I can match.
>As we have the same ability, as we are both "owners", I am always one step ahead of him since my swords are there, ready to be usedů!

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Thank you, for telling me things I already knew. God knows I didn't just simplify what I was saying because I didn't want to write a ton of words about it.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

If there is one thing I learned from the Fate/Zero thread, is that you can always count on somebody to look at a joke and think "hmph! this isn't enough"

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Rodyle posted:

I'm real scared they'll take the easy way out and make Archer vs Shirou and Gil vs Shirou into swordfights. I want to believe in UFOtable but so much of FSN is inner monologue, mostly form Shirou but also from other characters in the various interludes, including flashbacks from characters like Berserker and Caster. It's the sort of stuff where if you try to show the scene from outside the character's head with none of that narration it won't play correctly, and a lot of those inner monologues got cut in Zero's anime.
I think ufotable likes the property far too much to half-rear end the climatic battle of their most-hyped adaption to date.

quote:

They're by far the most believable couple of the three main pairings.
I disagree, Rin if anything to me is the most unbelievable pairing because I just don't think they think of themselves that way. They see themselves as friends. Their hookup in UBW was just crossing the t's and dotting the i's in a "well, I guess they have to?" sort of way. Thy could've completely axed it and it wouldn't have really changed the plot significantly. If there's anyone that Rin is remotely connected to in an intimate way it'd be Archer, which obviously wouldn't really work as is.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Nate RFB posted:

Fate/stay night is ultimately the story of Emiya Shirou and how he comes to terms with his past, present, and future. Archer is obviously vital to this, and Rin serves an incredibly important support role across all routes and helps highlight just how hosed up his mindset is. Saber by contrast is almost a completely self-contained story that just happens to intersect with Shirou's life; you could almost completely remove her in UBW and she effectively does disappear in HF and besides some battles maybe not going so well thematically nothing would change.

Saber and Archer are essentially two sides of the same coin - Saber feels she failed her ideal while Archer feels failed by his ideal - and the fact that Shirou provides the same answer for both of them "I am (You were) not wrong." makes that obvious.

Shirou starts the Fate route totally uncertain of how to live with his ideal, and a lot of what he learns comes from making kneejerk mistakes and then having to correct himself as the story advances. From his desire to protect others comes the chauvinistic smothering everyone loves to call him out for, but by the time they face Rider he has already admitted he was wrong and acknowledged Saber as his partner. Likewise, his love almost transforms into the same possessive desire as Gilgamesh's, but by the end he has grown enough to respect Saber's will more then his own desires. Saber is also a useful viewpoint into Shriou's mindset, into how he sees the process of realizing his ideal as more important than the result.

Shirou at the start of Fate is uncertain and self-duplicitous (it takes him until Day loving 14 to admit he has no regard for his own life), and Shirou at the end of Fate (and going into UBW) is confident in himself and his ability to live up to his ideal. The only question left unasked is whether the ideal itself is worth the devotion, which is Archer's whole issue.

I'm not gonna argue that Fate isn't the worst of the three routes, it is for a lot of reasons, but Saber being unimportant to Emiya Shirou's character development is not one of them.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


In the context of a bunch of stuff we learn in HF, several aspects of the resolution of UBW is rather questionable, yeah. Especially Shinji surviving.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


I don't think Shinji surviving is questionable. Sure the end of UBW does not resolve a million things, but it's implied that Shinji stopped being an rear end in a top hat thanks to what he went through in UBW. It doesn't stop Sakura's whole deal and honestly even if Shinji starts sticking up for her against Zouken that doesn't stop him from just killing him right there, but Shinji surviving is not a problem with the UBW ending. Also on the topic of Rin and Shiro's relationship, it is meant to be intimate. UBW may be the one that's most obvious about said intimacy, but Rin also falls in love with him too in Heaven's Feel, she just doesn't pursue her feelings out of respect for Sakura.

Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Oct 12, 2014

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

What are the chances Ufotable slip a tiny Sakura silhouette in the corner of the pole vaulting flashback? I was happy to see the other orphans in Shirou's adoption memory, and I want them to twist that knife as much as possible.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Scrree posted:

What are the chances Ufotable slip a tiny Sakura silhouette in the corner of the pole vaulting flashback? I was happy to see the other orphans in Shirou's adoption memory, and I want them to twist that knife as much as possible.

Interestingly, apparently they all heard that Kiritsugu was a wizard. Or at least they should have, given he wasn't whispering or anything.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Which episode did Iskandar appear in Carnival Phantasm? I don't remember that at all

edit:

A few things I liked/noticed:

In episode 2 of the new UBW anime Archer mentions who he can see every window or something of a really far away building, given what we know about Archer, having Shirou perfectly make out Rin from a similar distance is kinda cool foreshadowing.

Ilya is voiced by the same person right? She sounds really different when she's not acting like the comedic relief/straightman for other people's antics.

It's almost like Araragi has an evil twin! (re: Shinji)

How come magecraft is this sorta thing where its only these millennium old families have both real power in the craft but also are extremely weak at it except in specific circumstances? Would having more wizards recruited from normal people result in magic regaining its potency?

Holy poo poo Shirou did not stand a chance, Lancer is clearly toying with him the second time around right? I'm almost shocked it isn't just a strategy to just have the Heroic Spirit just zerg rush the first Master they see.

On the flipside, its interesting just how different the fight of Lancer v Archer and Lancer v Saber are. Saber seems to clearly have the upper hand while Archer had a slight disadvantage.

Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Oct 13, 2014

Yosuke
Dec 21, 2006

Emperor of Steel


Raenir Salazar posted:

Which episode did Iskandar appear in Carnival Phantasm? I don't remember that at all

Pretty sure it's the last one. They had a bunch of last minute characters show up without any lines as the closing scene, IIRC.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Remember, children... You brought this upon yourselves!


Is F/HA even worth slogging through at this point? I've waited so long that I have a really hard time bringing myself to give a poo poo now that it's actually out. Read like 2 hours worth back when the partial patch was released and Bazett was cool but I stil don't know if I want to bother.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Scrree posted:

What are the chances Ufotable slip a tiny Sakura silhouette in the corner of the pole vaulting flashback? I was happy to see the other orphans in Shirou's adoption memory, and I want them to twist that knife as much as possible.

Apparently according to Nasu's livetweets for the episode those aren't actually the orphans, who are already plugged in by this point. Man loves his menial details.


Ibram Gaunt posted:

Is F/HA even worth slogging through at this point? I've waited so long that I have a really hard time bringing myself to give a poo poo now that it's actually out. Read like 2 hours worth back when the partial patch was released and Bazett was cool but I stil don't know if I want to bother.

HA is fun, go fishing with Lancer.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

WELCOME TO THE DUNGEON

Raenir Salazar posted:

Ilya is voiced by the same person right? She sounds really different when she's not acting like the comedic relief/straightman for other people's antics.

I think the only radical Type-Moon overall cast change that took place is that the Tsukihime characters are now all voiced by their Melty Blood VA's? Hell, the VA's from FSN have been the same dating all the way back to the Deen Anime / some obscure Drama CD as far as I know.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Yeah, it's been so many years since the Deen anime, Realta Nua, and even Unlimited Codes. All of the VAs are gonna sound pretty different especially the ones voicing child characters still.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Scrree posted:

Saber and Archer are essentially two sides of the same coin - Saber feels she failed her ideal while Archer feels failed by his ideal - and the fact that Shirou provides the same answer for both of them "I am (You were) not wrong." makes that obvious.
I think this is really forced reasoning; they're different if not wholly incompatible paths/ideals/whatever. Shirou has no real capacity to empathize with the little king who Just Wanted To Be Normal, nor does Arturia have a vested interest in the sort of self-sacrifice that Shirou desires other than the most superficial details of a king living for his people. Shirou would still be who he is (an extraordinarily broken man) if he had never met Saber. Now Saber and Kiritsugu, there's a relationship that was fairly well defined by how the two contrasted with each other.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



Ibram Gaunt posted:

Is F/HA even worth slogging through at this point? I've waited so long that I have a really hard time bringing myself to give a poo poo now that it's actually out. Read like 2 hours worth back when the partial patch was released and Bazett was cool but I stil don't know if I want to bother.

It's like a more sane version of Carnival Phantasm with a few serious moment and badass servant battles. Some of Carnival Phantasm's episodes/scenes are based on scenes from F/HA. Lots of fun mini-games. Bersercar

Carnival Phantasm should be watched/watch-again after F/HA.

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



So where the hell is the Tsukihime remake?

Nate RFB posted:

I disagree, Rin if anything to me is the most unbelievable pairing because I just don't think they think of themselves that way. They see themselves as friends. Their hookup in UBW was just crossing the t's and dotting the i's in a "well, I guess they have to?" sort of way. Thy could've completely axed it and it wouldn't have really changed the plot significantly. If there's anyone that Rin is remotely connected to in an intimate way it'd be Archer, which obviously wouldn't really work as is.

Yeah, while how Rin and Shirou act together is great in the end they just decide they might as well go out.
It can happen, why not, but it doesn't really feel satisfying?

I liked the Sakura romance though because unlike the rest, Shirou and Sakura actually have a common past history, not just literally met each other in a week ago. The bigger reason why I liked it better though was that in the other paths the confession happened at the end, like in most other works, but in HF it happened in the middle, basically the turning point for Shirou, it didn't felt like Shirou just "won the girl".

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Shirou and Sakura have a hilarious perfect relationship; Shirou desperately wants to help other people, and Sakura desperately wants somebody to care about her.

A shame that Sakura doesn't come to life as a character until HA. I guess imminent doom and insanity have a way of making a character boring.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Even after all these years the fact that Fate/Stay Night has bad ends and dead ends be separate things never stops being amusing to me. Especially considering that some of the bad ends are even worse then the dead ends.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Xoidanor posted:

Even after all these years the fact that Fate/Stay Night has bad ends and dead ends be separate things never stops being amusing to me. Especially considering that some of the bad ends are even worse then the dead ends.

....There is a difference between "bad end" and "dead end"? I always thought that they were just two different ways to call the same thing.

Blhue
Apr 22, 2008



Fallen Rib

Been a while, but iirc, a Dead end means Shirou died, a Bad End is an ending where he doesn't necessarily die, but the path he's set on isn't one that will end happily.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



or one that is personified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywkNzSTreDk

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

I still don't understand how Mind of Steel would end in anything other than Berserker pasting Shirou the second he steps out of the church.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Shiro found a way.

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Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Remember, children... You brought this upon yourselves!


I'm surprised we made it 3 pages before Mind of Steel chat.

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