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MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Gimme Bazett.

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Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


gimme medea (to be my wife)

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



That whole movie was loving gorgeous.

I don't care if it technically came out last year, this is AOY for me right here.

Blockhouse posted:

I was absolutely baffled that the ending didn't even have a single throwaway line to explain what the gently caress was happening, beyond the blink and you miss it Touko cameo which still wouldn't mean anything to people not already full-on Nasu Poisoned

This poo poo did make me chuckle. I thought there were going for some slight original ending since even in the VN true end, Shirou projects Excalibur before being stopped by Ilya. Then during the epilogue, I was like..."why are they in Russia?" Wait, was that...?" "I guess they're doing the...Yup, there's the loving doll. Of course."

MonsieurChoc posted:

Gimme Bazett.

Also this. But like...not via Prisma Ilya please.

Shinjobi
Jul 10, 2008






Gravy Boat 2k

Tribladeofchaos posted:

Type Moon: Infinity War, get on it Nasu.

"Cú Chulainn.........assemble."


Except instead that's the moment they all turn to dust.

Marluxia
May 8, 2008


I concur with the Rider/Saber Alter fight being fantastic and Rin using the jeweled sword was pretty good too, but the final fight between Shirou and Kotomine was kind of underwhelming? I don't know what they could have done to make it better but it didn't stick for me.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

I liked it, it was a good palate cleanser, because it was a slower drawn out brawl. I'd have to rewatch it though to see if it compares with Gigguk's favourite fisticuffs fight though from Cowboy Bebop.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!



At the end of the day it's two dying men beating the poo poo out of each other so it was always going to be weird coming off the spectacle of high magic fights

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Shinjobi posted:

"Cú Chulainn.........assemble."


Except instead that's the moment they all turn to dust.

Caster Cu is the only one who managed to 100% win.

Marluxia
May 8, 2008


Blockhouse posted:

At the end of the day it's two dying men beating the poo poo out of each other so it was always going to be weird coming off the spectacle of high magic fights

I think it's not quite this, I didn't expect it to be flashy. But on reflection I think it would have been a bit better if it was closer to what I remember of the VN. Wasn't Shirou pretty much losing the entire time, with one notable comeback that ultimately turned against him? The movie made it closer than it actually was. I mean, Shirou is a stubborn gently caress, even after giving up that suicidal ideal. Him surviving not because he fought on equal footing, but just because he kept getting up until Kotomine's timer ran out is entirely on brand for him.

It's entirely possible I'm wrong on what happened on the VN, it's been years since I last read it.

RevolverDivider
Nov 12, 2016



No you're correct. Shirou only lands a single series of blows at the end of the fight in the VN which stalls out Kotomine long enough he dies before Shirou does. Most of the fight is Kotomine just pulverizing the poo poo out of him while Shirou tries to protect his face from lethal hits and Kotomine is killing himself punching swords. The movie changed it which is probably a little weaker narratively but a lot more fun visually.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

It's such a memorable sequence in the VN though, because it cuts to ~0:52 of Light & Darkness when he gets up and it's hype af.

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



the movie kotomine and shirou beating the poo poo out of each other is very good

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



I'm just happy I will not have to listen people explaining how Shirou was saved from Kotomine by plot armor.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Plot swords really

Robviously
Aug 21, 2010

Genius. Billionaire. Playboy. Philanthropist.



I also just remembered how much I loved Kotomine vs Assassin and the ensuing catholicism on the rooftop. This movie really was just so well animated.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Having not read the VN I was a bit mystified by the ending. Shirou's soul is in a birdcage? How did they collect his soul? A seance? And now there's this doll that can receive a soul. Not sure where that came from, seems pretty convenient, but hey I guess mages sometimes have these things lying around.

Motto
Aug 3, 2013



One particular mage has a lot of them lying around

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Ccs posted:

Having not read the VN I was a bit mystified by the ending. Shirou's soul is in a birdcage? How did they collect his soul? A seance? And now there's this doll that can receive a soul. Not sure where that came from, seems pretty convenient, but hey I guess mages sometimes have these things lying around.

In order:

-Shirou's soul in the VN is very strongly implied to have been initially housed in Rin's pendant (the one she used up like 10 years of Mana to save regenerate Shirou's heart when Cu stabbed it. The movie seems to obscure this fact a little by having the pendant somehow combine with Shirou's soul? Even though there should only be a trace amount of mana remaining? The point is, by activating the Third Magic, Illya is able to save Shirou which is a BIG DEAL.
-The doll is provided by the Mage Touka who specializes in such things. We know her from Kara no Kyoukai I think? Or her sister? Not sure if its the same situation of there being different versions of Sion. In Kara no Kyoukai Touko replaces Shiki's missing arm that she lost in a fight with evil spirits with the arm of a doll. The full doll replaces Shirou's body. Its a special magic doll, and Shirou basically has a normal human body again as a result; but there's oddness and some getting used to it factors; like Shirou feels like he's almost piloting his new body via remote control in a way, iirc in the VN at the end Sakura has to take over chores/cooking again basically until Shirou fully regains mobility.
-(not quite in order but) So basically Rider actually finds Shirou's soul that was transferred to the Pendant in the resulting collapsed rubble, fishes him out and returns it to Sakura/Rin. There's a fun doujin what-if that basically predicts Prillya by like several years that posits what if instead of the pendant Illya simply has Shirou's soul replaces hers in her Einzbern body while her own souls travels to the Root. It's quite wholesome.
-The doll is actually quite priceless but Touko is one of those people that once they craft a unique irreplaceable priceless work of art they just give it away for free because they satisfied the desire they had and keeping it/hoarding it doesn't fulfill that desire. According to Nasu anyways in the commentary for HF 3.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Touko is the one from Kara no Kyoukai (and Mahoyo, which is the one that stars her sister Aoko); her use of puppets as alternate limbs and spare bodies is made explicit there.

The implication I always got from the VN was that Illya's Third Magic sacrifice turned Shirou's dying soul into a nondescript lump of flesh (the magic is literally "materialization of the soul") that Rider found that they then stuck into Touko's puppet which allowed it to grow into normal rear end Shirou.

Ccs
Feb 25, 2011




Hmm weird. Well the movie didn’t really make any of that clear but I was also able to mostly ignore it cause it’s all magic nonsense.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

There’s a detailed explanation, of course, but I don’t think as a reader you’re really supposed to understand how exactly (HF) Shirou survives. It’s a miracle: an unparalleled work of magic made possible by Illya’s nature and her expertise. The doll thing is a cute reference, but I think it’s supposed to come out of nowhere: narratively it’s what Illya does that’s important.

Actually, that raises another question for me. The power of the Holy Grail is fundamentally corrupt, right? When it “grants wishes” or “offers power”, it do so in a malevolent, destructive way. It is impossible to use it for good: That’s the conclusion Kiritsugu comes to, and I don’t think we have any reason to doubt he’s correct. But at the end of HF, Ilya uses the power of the Grail to save Shirou, an act of benevolence driven by deep familial love. So what’s the deal? I always figured Illya was making use of the ambient power in the big Grail to perform sorcery— is that not the case, and she could have done it anywhere if she needed to?

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Ccs posted:

Having not read the VN I was a bit mystified by the ending. Shirou's soul is in a birdcage? How did they collect his soul? A seance? And now there's this doll that can receive a soul. Not sure where that came from, seems pretty convenient, but hey I guess mages sometimes have these things lying around.
The VN is really not a lot clearer than that. We know that Shirou soul was manifested via Heaven's Feel, just like Ilya explained in the Big Exposition Time, but it's never explained exactly what shape it took. About the doll, they actually tried different bodies before choosing this one. It's less 'it's a special doll that can receive a soul' and more 'they could attach the soul everywhere and that doll is a better body than a golem or a stuffed doll.'

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


Can't believe nasu chose not to explain what is literally magic

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

nrook posted:

There’s a detailed explanation, of course, but I don’t think as a reader you’re really supposed to understand how exactly (HF) Shirou survives. It’s a miracle: an unparalleled work of magic made possible by Illya’s nature and her expertise. The doll thing is a cute reference, but I think it’s supposed to come out of nowhere: narratively it’s what Illya does that’s important.

Actually, that raises another question for me. The power of the Holy Grail is fundamentally corrupt, right? When it “grants wishes” or “offers power”, it do so in a malevolent, destructive way. It is impossible to use it for good: That’s the conclusion Kiritsugu comes to, and I don’t think we have any reason to doubt he’s correct. But at the end of HF, Ilya uses the power of the Grail to save Shirou, an act of benevolence driven by deep familial love. So what’s the deal? I always figured Illya was making use of the ambient power in the big Grail to perform sorcery— is that not the case, and she could have done it anywhere if she needed to?



I assume its something akin to the idea that its something only an Einzbern could do. Like it was the Einzberns in their quest for recovering the Mystics for their own ends, lost sight of their goal and similar to Makiri cheated to try to get it which corrupted the grail; and Illya brought it back full circle to fix their mistakes, by using it not for her own ends, but out of love. And maybe additionally something about how connecting to the Root/Akasha Records is the Greater Grails true purposes and that overwrites its corruption because the corruption/wish bending to evil thing happens when someone tries to use the mana to accomplish an earthly goal; but Illya is using it to connect to the Root and that's beyond human concepts of good and evil and superscedes it? Makes sense to me.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Stairmaster posted:

Can't believe nasu chose not to explain what is literally magic
Why would you explain something as self evident as Magic?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Gaius Marius posted:

Why would you explain something as self evident as Magic?

This is actually funny to me because of the actual distinction in Nasu-land between Magecraft which is what we'd normally understand as being a magic or rather a magic system similar to tabletop rpg's vancian magic systems and what Nasu calls Magic/True Magic/Sorcery which is "Basically unexplained miracles" until science advances to the point that it loses its power because science can turn the magical and special into the mundane and common place, even true magic.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Yeah the epilogue should have been more clear, I've read the VN and I still had to go reread a summary of the HF true end to understand it.

It was great except for that though. Was Zouken's origin story in the VN? I don't remember that at all either.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



I don't know why it would be unclear, Number one rule with Nasu just roll with it.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Gaius Marius posted:

I don't know why it would be unclear, Number one rule with Nasu just roll with it.

Nasu does have some kind of underlying system in mind; the whole narrative oompf of the story is the idea that there exists a system and somehow humans through willpower, luck, perseverence, cleverness, etc, manage to break that system and the plot is about managing the fallout of it.

The key thing why Nasu's word salad world building keeps being engaging is because as a viewer/reader you can feel like this is an actual world where this is how things work and there's always more things happening beneath the surface or behind the scenes at a given moment with many intricately linked moving parts whirring at all times.

Sindai posted:

Yeah the epilogue should have been more clear, I've read the VN and I still had to go reread a summary of the HF true end to understand it.

It was great except for that though. Was Zouken's origin story in the VN? I don't remember that at all either.

IIRC I think it was? But I also might be thinking of some things from FGO.

Marluxia
May 8, 2008


nrook posted:

Actually, that raises another question for me. The power of the Holy Grail is fundamentally corrupt, right? When it “grants wishes” or “offers power”, it do so in a malevolent, destructive way. It is impossible to use it for good: That’s the conclusion Kiritsugu comes to, and I don’t think we have any reason to doubt he’s correct. But at the end of HF, Ilya uses the power of the Grail to save Shirou, an act of benevolence driven by deep familial love. So what’s the deal? I always figured Illya was making use of the ambient power in the big Grail to perform sorcery— is that not the case, and she could have done it anywhere if she needed to?

Nah, I'm pretty sure the grail initially is just a massive chunk of magic, not good or evil. But the Einzberns massively hosed up during the third war and summoned Avenger for two reasons: he's actually a complete poo poo servant who went down really quickly, and him returning to the grail corrupted the magic inside because hey he literally turned into the concept of all evil when he became a servant. Whoops.

This is explained in Fate Hollow Ataraxia. As for Illya being able to use it without Angra Mainyu interfering, yeah that's not really clear. But nothing about the fundamental nature of the grail would prevent her using it in that way, beside Angra Mainyu who isn't actually part of the grail.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Sindai posted:


It was great except for that though. Was Zouken's origin story in the VN? I don't remember that at all either.

I remember you get a paragraph about the madlad when he gets chumped

Marluxia posted:

Nah, I'm pretty sure the grail initially is just a massive chunk of magic, not good or evil. But the Einzberns massively hosed up during the third war and summoned Avenger for two reasons: he's actually a complete poo poo servant who went down really quickly, and him returning to the grail corrupted the magic inside because hey he literally turned into the concept of all evil when he became a servant. Whoops.

This is explained in Fate Hollow Ataraxia. As for Illya being able to use it without Angra Mainyu interfering, yeah that's not really clear. But nothing about the fundamental nature of the grail would prevent her using it in that way, beside Angra Mainyu who isn't actually part of the grail.


This is personally influenced by my own view but evil must always serve a greater good in the end. Even a tainted grail that believed it was tearing a soul from it's vessel, unaware that the vessel was expended and a new one could be fashioned

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Gaius Marius posted:

I remember you get a paragraph about the madlad when he gets chumped


This is personally influenced by my own view but evil must always serve a greater good in the end. Even a tainted grail that believed it was tearing a soul from it's vessel, unaware that the vessel was expended and a new one could be fashioned

I like this theory.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



You should read the Book of the New sun Raenir, and also post about it in the Gene Wolfe thread. It's one of the most Narrative and beautiful arguments of reasoning dealing with the problem of Evil, as conceptualized by philosophers. Also great prose, a cool story, a badass sword, and a neat unique setting.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3435386

Here's the thread

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Gaius Marius posted:

You should read the Book of the New sun Raenir, and also post about it in the Gene Wolfe thread. It's one of the most Narrative and beautiful arguments of reasoning dealing with the problem of Evil, as conceptualized by philosophers. Also great prose, a cool story, a badass sword, and a neat unique setting.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3435386

Here's the thread

Thanks! The "philosophical" question of evil piqued by interest a while back precisely because of F/Z and FSN; especially because of Gilles convo with his Master in F/Z and then just all around because of Kotomine; like, usually when we think of "Evil" it ultimately gets translated into a medical condition; i.e something that could be managed, cured, treated etc. But what if there existed some sort of pure expression of Evil as a concept but in a human being such that they were just fundamentally evil and I think I came up with something along the lines of the difference between evil-as-medical-disorder and Capital-E-Evil-as-Abstract-Concept is that it has to be a knowingly informed choice between Good and Evil in a way a normal regular human being cannot conceive it.

Because I want to make a game where the "villain-protagonist" is basically that, an exploration of what is actually pure Evil.

Put it another way; normally a regular human being who commits evil acts is wrong.

So what happens when they commit evil acts and are right?

Conspiratiorist
Nov 12, 2015


Ccs posted:

Having not read the VN I was a bit mystified by the ending. Shirou's soul is in a birdcage? How did they collect his soul? A seance? And now there's this doll that can receive a soul. Not sure where that came from, seems pretty convenient, but hey I guess mages sometimes have these things lying around.

In the mechanics of the Nasuverse, lacking a body souls will immediately unravel and return to the Root; even ghosts are merely psychic echoes rather than the actual spirits of the dead. Furthermore, souls naturally degrade overtime, so processes that grant immortality or similes come with big drawbacks. See Zouken, who's turned into a deranged vampiric bug colony.

So being able to sidestep this whole process of souls coming apart is a Big Deal.

Enter the Einzberns, who in ancient times possessed the Third Magic, Materialization of the Soul, whose strict functioning is never fully detailed but is known to be able to halt the normal process of degradation of souls to achieve something akin to true immortality. The Holy Grail War is a ritual to access the Root with the intention of recovering it, and the manifestation of Heroic Spirits is allowed by it.

Being a replica of Justeaze (last wielder of the Third) and possessing the Dress of Heaven (the Einzbern's treasured mystic code), Illya is able to access the Third Magic to a very limited extent, as an example in the VN using it to transfer Shirou's soul to a stuffed toy.

In the ending the Grail is nearly complete with Saber's death, already containing the souls of Caster, Lancer, Gilgamesh, Berserker, and Assassin. Illya has Archer's soul, bringing the total to the seven needed as she enters the Grail and dispels Angra Manyu through the power of the Dress of Heaven. Now in control of the Greater Grail and with access to the Root, she uses the Third Magic to stabilize Shirou's soul so that it can survive the death of his body.

Illya then closes the gate to the Root, ending the Fuyuki Grail Wars for good.

The soul is later recovered by Rin and Sakura thanks to Rider, and kept in a temporary container until they eventually manage to track down a doll produced by Aozaki Touko, a renowned magic doll-maker that features in Kara no Kyuoukai. They install Shirou's soul in it, and the doll adapts to the shape inscribed in his soul, allowing him to return to life 100% indistinguishable from a normal human.

Also, because of her stint as a Lesser Grail, Sakura's body retains a virtually inexhaustible supply of magical energy, which she uses to sustain Rider's existence.

Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Apr 8, 2021

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012




You should read the Book of the New Sun and It's sequel series yesterday.

The main Character is a Torturer who practices their art often, and yet the journey he goes on has cause 40 years of argument, three separate podcasts, and 3 published books, over whether or not what he does is morally good or correct

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



So it's worth noting that the Einzberns practices something called literally Wishcraft. The way it works is that you just put an inefficiently large amount of prana into achieving arbitrary effects. An inefficient amount, because if you knew how to achieve whatever effect properly, you'd be able to do it with much less. The Grail is literally just this at the grandest possible scale: the mana gathered by decades of sitting on a leyline, and the od of 7 heroic spirit copies, to achieve effects that the users don't know how to do otherwise. For the Einzberns, this was designed as the way to finally reclaim the Third Magic they didn't know how to use, and that's exactly what Ilya does at the end, except that the knowledge isn't brought back to Acht so it's all a wash.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Sindai posted:

It was great except for that though. Was Zouken's origin story in the VN? I don't remember that at all either.
He mentions it, and there's a very brief flashback just before he dies, but all that's shown in the flashback is Justeaze, the Einzbern woman he was in love with. The movie expanded it a bit.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



How does FGO system manifest heroic spirit? Some alternate Third Magic?

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Marluxia
May 8, 2008


From what I can tell, the holy grail war system is piggybacking off a system the world has to summon grand servants to fight beasts. So it's not like humans actually developed a brand new magic to summon clones of ancient human heroes, they were already borrowing from a pre-existing ritual.

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