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Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011


Gaius Marius posted:

I kicked buddhas rear end in Extra

He wasn't even trying hard in that game though

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Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



He singlehandedly repelled a Beast, which usually requires grand servants to do it.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Buddha, like Arc, doesn't actually die when the fight ends, he LEAVES because Twice's soul was saved.

Savers are likely all THE top tier, equivalent to or surpassing Grands in various ways, especially since Heroic Spirits pull not just from their own myths and history but how actively venerated they are.

GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019


Yeah Buddha is 100% totally OP. In the game his NP is an instant Game Over and that is despite it being explicitly weaker against humans who aren't humans like Hakuno. And Nasu joked if he had a bigger budget for EXTRA it would cause 5,670,000,000 damage and you'd need to achieve enlightment to get past it. Not to mention being able to stop the Moon Cell in Last Encore.

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


I just watched Heaven's Feel III. I think I read the VN fate route back in like... I don't know, maybe 2009 or something? So it's been over a decade for me to finally see the FSN story to its conclusion. I honestly think the basic conceit of "wizards summon the phantoms of dead legendary heroes to fight in a battle royale for the holy grail" is a rad concept, and it's led to some real fun things like sir lancelot stealing a jet fighter to shoot at girl king arthur as she runs on water to defeat bluebeard's cthulhu monster (also astolfo). But the thing that's really stood out to me over the years is the slow realization that Fate/Stay Night is actually a really ambitiously heartfelt story.

some thoughts:
1. when I read the Fate route as a teenager I didn't really understand what PTSD was or how it affects your sense of self, and I thought Shirou was a pretty bland character. but my affection for him has grown so much over the years, to the point that i think he's one of my favorite characters. in a lot of ways he's not a very 'pop' character--Rin and Saber are a thousand times cooler and more dashing and iconic than he is, so I don't really mean "favorite character" in that sense. But the story spends so much time just connecting to him, following him as he cooks and cleans and interacts with classmates and trains. i've come to appreciate that the core of his character is actually kind of subtle and wonderful. I think the ufotable adaptations have done a really good job showing the quiet moments that make up his life.

as a person, he's basically intensely traumatized, and lost a chunk of his childhood and his family to a disaster, and has survivor's guilt, and that informs everything about him. even though he's good natured and gets along well with a lot of the people around him, there's a core part of him that feels disconnected from others. it's something like, "I was supposed to die, so my life has inherently less value than the lives of others." It leads to him being willing to do things like clean up the entire kyuudo dojo just because Shinji asked him to. And obviously he is almost enthusiastic about looking for chances to martyr himself in combat, because the idea of himself once again living when someone around him dies is sickening to him.

i think the balance the story has of shirou's PTSD warping his thoughts with the positive qualities about him as a person are really cool, though. he's very tidy and responsible and humble, he takes care of people, and he's really personally disciplined.

I think having Sakura (also a PTSD survivor) spend so much time with him and admire him so much is a really cool storytelling idea. Because Shirou's fixated on this idea of becoming a hero, but his most heroic qualities are his mundane ones--he's able to keep his daily life together so well despite all the poo poo he's been through. I think in the first Heaven's Feel movie, Sakura realizes how well kept-together he is, and she finds it really inspiring. To her, his emotional resilience and goodwill are super powers.

2. the idea of Archer being Shirou from the future is so freakin cool as a storytelling idea. Shirou is living this quiet, mundane life, not really realizing the positive influence he's having on the people around him, but deep inside he feels this inadequacy that compels him to think "I need to devote my life to rescuing others, even if it costs me my life." Little does he know that mystical superheroes are an actual thing in this world, and that in another future, he was able to become one. And that future self that's become the ideal of a hero incarnate has come back in time to tell him "jesus christ kid do not make that loving mistake, i'd kill you if it could end my miserable existence."

3. the reveal that Sakura's been victimized and brutalized the entire story is handled really well. The tenor shifts so significantly once it becomes her story.

I think one of the coolest things in the entire story, and a moment that made me think "oh... Nasu had some serious thematic ideas writing this story" was the scene where Sakura kills Gil. It's right around the time that we learn that she's being abused at home, and the stakes of the story suddenly become incredibly Real. Sakura's Shadow is able to just eat up the heroic spirits... In spite of all of their pathos and ego, they're just stories about heroes come to life, and the real trauma that Sakura has experienced operates on an entirely separate level from them.

4. having Sakura actually be responsible for her actions is so refreshing. This is the Nasuverse, so everyone is a little bit of a sociopath, so the fact that she's killed/metaphysically eaten a dozen people or so can be "forgiven" because it's operating on a kind of metaphorical or existential level. Kara no Kyoukai and Tsukihime were about heroic serial killers, after all.

The thing that I really appreciate is that Sakura's not just a victim. That is, she's not reduced to "a poor, innocent victim." She gets real agency and interiority. The things that have been done to her fill her with hatred and loathing. The things she's missed out on fill her with bitterness and jealousy. She wants to hurt people for the ways that she's been hurt. She doesn't see a reason to be merciful to a world that didn't care about the things that happened to her.

Those are all such real feelings. And I don't know many stories that explore those feelings the way Heaven's Feel does, which is with understanding and compassion. The story says, "You have all those feelings... I understand why you have them. I don't want to judge you. I just want you to be able to be free from them."

I think, because the story operates on a mythical and fantastical mode, it's able to visualize Sakura's feelings and trauma in ways that let you actually experience and explore them. Like, in a more realistic story, you'd have to say "...I get it, but sorry, that's definitely life in prison." She basically gets a pass because it's like "whoa, we were standing at the literal gate to transcendence, and a 300-year-old multi eyed being with very long arms that wanted to consume the world out of grief and hatred was moments from conception... i guess we don't need to talk about you murdering your rapist brother."

5. the sense that some of the servants are adults and want to protect the teenage masters in place of their own kids is really cool. It's always there with Hercules and Ilya, but it becomes a noticeable pattern in Heaven's Feel with Rider. idk I just think it's neat. A lot of the servants have their heads stuck up their asses, but Medea just wants to chill and have a family, and Medusa just really, really does not want Sakura to be dealt the same poo poo hand she was. Like, Medusa is low-key actually the most heroic of the heroic spirits?

A lot like Archer's deal with Shirou, having Medusa rescue a girl from becoming a monster is just a really cool place to take the otherwise pulpy idea of "what if we summoned mythical heroes to fight each other"

6. i love that no matter what route you end up in, somebody's ending up with a thousand year old demigod girlfriend/boyfriend/mom/stepsister who somehow ends up just hanging out with them from now on even when things go back to normal. it's such a fun and silly little detail to include in the ending.

7. kotomine is rad as hell. Connecting with the "some of the servants are adults and see the world differently from the teens" angle, I love that he's like "Shirou... come with me. Behind the church. Let me lift this gate... That's right, Shirou. I have a driver's license. I have a car. I can just drive us there."

I think the HF 3 movie had trouble expressing his character and its relationship to Shirou's, but I think the basic idea is interesting. I get the impression that Kotomine has a psychopathic personality, and he's not fond of that reality but he accepts it. So a lot like Shirou, he feels like the world and human civilization are inherently not meant for him. Shirou thinks that if he becomes a hero, he can justify his existence by saving people because he can't accept that people died when he got to live. Kotomine wants to see an Absolute being be born into the world, so he can justify his existence by seeing if some things really are born inherently evil.

8. tldr; Shirou saying "I want to live" is really moving, and despite all of the absolutely insane lore and nonsense that comes with Nasu's writing, I feel like FSN tackles the subjects of PTSD and abuse in a way that really deeply resonated with me, it really stands out to me as a meaningful story

Cephas fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Apr 20, 2021

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Acerbatus posted:

I wonder if the fact that the christian God is still widely worshiped while the likes of Zeus, Odin or Quetz aren't has something to do with it.
yeah, its this. the people who arent worshipped anymore have less power in modern times than the people who are. christianity is the most widely spread and sincerely practiced theistic religion in the modern day so artifacts associated with the Big G have way more power even in the hands of regular humans.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Cephas posted:

8. tldr; Shirou saying "I want to live" is really moving, and despite all of the absolutely insane lore and nonsense that comes with Nasu's writing, I feel like FSN tackles the subjects of PTSD and abuse in a way that really deeply resonated with me, it really stands out to me as a meaningful story

It's the strongest part of the story for sure.

AtheistMantis
Oct 5, 2014


Now that I have a broad outline of events going forward from watching all the anime, I've decided to give the VN another shot. Previously, I only managed to finish fate, and stalled early on in UBW.

Thought I'd skip to where I left off, but just reading the prologue again is proving super enjoyable. Now that I understand all of the things Rin mentions in her monologues, it's super funny that pretty much every single one of the assumptions she makes are hilariously wrong in one way or another. Incredible.

Still might skip fate if it becomes a slog, but need a refresher because the order of events after defeating berserker have been messed up in my head by the deen anime. Like why would caster put Sakura in bondage fetish gear? Thought she was all into purity and fair maidens.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



That doesnít happen in fate, orrr at all so maybe someone at deen was huffing markers

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

DamnGlitch posted:

That doesnít happen in fate, orrr at all so maybe someone at deen was huffing markers

Yeah the Fate anime is like a mix of the Fate route and Heaven's Feel.

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


And UBW. They lifted pretty much the entire Caster arc, fiddled with it a bit and then dropped it right into the Fate route after the defeat of Berserker.

bagrada
Aug 4, 2007

The Demogorgon is tired of your silly human bickering!



No wonder I was confused. I watched the older Fate anime when it was newly being fansubbed, then just played through all three routes the first time this year.

How's Hollow Ataraxia? I'm debating that next vs heading to Umineko. I was going to replay Tsukihime but I think now I'll wait for the switch version.

Hyper Inferno
Jun 11, 2015


Hollow Ataraxia is basically superhero slice of life with a more serious overarching plot. I loved it and a lot of the extended characterization the characters get in it is what got built off on in the later materials as well.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004



HA is wonderful. Itís a great and largely satisfying extension of the fsn story, and is just a lot of fun with the characters in a unique package.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Play umineko

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

bagrada posted:

How's Hollow Ataraxia? I'm debating that next vs heading to Umineko. I was going to replay Tsukihime but I think now I'll wait for the switch version.
It's the best Fate story/property that there is.

Umineko is also great so no real loss to go to that instead (though it's much larger overall commitment of time).

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Gaius Marius posted:

Play umineko

What is 'Can someone please help me solve this murder mystery my family is dying' for 1,000 please.

bagrada
Aug 4, 2007

The Demogorgon is tired of your silly human bickering!



Maybe I'll bounce between them. I'm kind of burned out on Fate but I do still like the characters. I played Umineko for five or six hours earlier this year and it didn't grab me yet but there has to be a good reason the games VN thread is 95% black barred discussion of it.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



I don't know if that'll work, once Umineko hits it totally consumes your thoughts. At least in my experience.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020


DamnGlitch posted:

That doesnít happen in fate, orrr at all so maybe someone at deen was huffing markers

Maybe he's thinking of Saber? I think Caster abducts her at one point, it's been awhile.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Acerbatus posted:

Maybe he's thinking of Saber? I think Caster abducts her at one point, it's been awhile.

Nah there's a weird Sakura subplot in the DEEN anime adaption.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



bagrada posted:

Maybe I'll bounce between them. I'm kind of burned out on Fate but I do still like the characters. I played Umineko for five or six hours earlier this year and it didn't grab me yet but there has to be a good reason the games VN thread is 95% black barred discussion of it.

I tried to start Umineko a lot of times and it never grabbed me. I just don't care for the characters.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



Uminekoís first chapter is all about introducing 10+ supposively uninteresting/bland characters. Itís the most boring intro chapter I ever read in VN.

The good part only starts around chapter Episode 3, so itís quite a long slob to power through. I canít say the pay off is worth the grind, but you might as a avid fan of mystery genre.

Nyaa fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Apr 28, 2021

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...



Nyaa posted:

Uminekoís first chapter is all about introducing 10+ supposively uninteresting/bland characters. Itís the most boring intro chapter I ever read in VN.

The good part only starts around chapter 3, so itís quite a long slob to power through. I canít say the pay off is worth the grind, but you might as a avid fan of mystery genre.

Like are you talking about like the first chapter of Episode 1 or Episode 1 in it's entirety.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



Dr Pepper posted:

Like are you talking about like the first chapter of Episode 1 or Episode 1 in it's entirety.
I can't recall exactly, it's been so long ago. I think chapter 3 of Episode 1 should be where the boring character introduction are done and things start moving along.

Episode three is where the real payoff begins imo.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Dr Pepper posted:

Like are you talking about like the first chapter of Episode 1 or Episode 1 in it's entirety.

I was talking about the whole Episodi 1

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...



YggdrasilTM posted:

I was talking about the whole Episodi 1

Then I don't know what to tell you because the "Good part" starts party way into Episode 1.

Nyaa posted:

I can't recall exactly, it's been so long ago. I think chapter 3 of Episode 1 should be where the boring character introduction are done and things start moving along.

Episode three is where the real payoff begins imo.

Episode 2 is fantastic though and has some of the best scenes in Umineko.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Except for one particular section as a whole Umineko never really lets off the gas after the first twilight

Weird BIAS
Jul 4, 2007

so... guess that's it, huh? just... don't say i didn't warn you.


I'm reading Umineko for the first time and frankly it grabbed me the moment in Episode 1 where Maria gets super excited about the occult and makes one of the creepiest faces I've ever seen drawn in my god drat life. I was honestly jumpscared by a screenshot lp ffs.

bagrada
Aug 4, 2007

The Demogorgon is tired of your silly human bickering!



Weird BIAS posted:

I'm reading Umineko for the first time and frankly it grabbed me the moment in Episode 1 where Maria gets super excited about the occult and makes one of the creepiest faces I've ever seen drawn in my god drat life. I was honestly jumpscared by a screenshot lp ffs.

Same but just a bit later when Battler starts bopping her on the head every time she's being too drat creepy. Read the room, Maria!

Weird BIAS
Jul 4, 2007

so... guess that's it, huh? just... don't say i didn't warn you.


Yes absolutely. Also good god the VA for Beatrice is fantastic fun, her saying "Battler" is such a fun read every single time. Jumping into Chiru now.

Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



I guess the old art and lack of VA is reason for me.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Remember, children... You brought this upon yourselves!


The old art is the best part though.

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Nyaa
Jan 7, 2010
Like, Nyaa.



Ibram Gaunt posted:

The old art is the best part though.

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