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I really like the last stardust scene in the Archer fight. The Archer fight is too long. The Gil fight they did more or less perfectly imo.
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Nov 20, 2019 19:44
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YggdrasilTM posted:
Yeah because archers a sad old man
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Nov 20, 2019 20:46
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Rody One Half posted:I really like the last stardust scene in the Archer fight. The Archer fight is too long. My only complaint with the Gil fight is that they should have synched up the action when Shirou is reciting the spell with the music better
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Nov 20, 2019 20:51
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Stairmaster posted:Yeah because archers a sad old man Yes. Yes, he is.
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Nov 20, 2019 21:37
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YggdrasilTM posted:I think there is a big misunderstanding here. Yes, Archer says that, but he's coming off a decades-long depression. UBW is the superpower he brute-forced into existence for himself. It is a monument to his will to become a hero, which can be either a graveyard or a fondly-kept museum depending on how he feels about his ideal. As for what the fight means, you need to remember that they're both Shirou. There is no distinction between Shirou reconciling his doubts about his ideal and Archer remembering why he once loved it, and the fight itself, the struggle itself, is what they both find beautiful. Them learning to have fun with their fight (and the anime staff making the fight look fun) would be a great way to show how Shirou has started to reconcile the two broken halves of himself, and a nice little ray of hope that being a hero isn't just a grim march towards self-destruction, but something Shirou can actually enjoy for what it is.
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Nov 20, 2019 21:39
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I wish they had keep the long and calm moment where shirou slowly chant out the whole ubw while being bombarded by weapons for... a full minute?
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Nov 20, 2019 22:33
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Nyaa posted:I wish they had keep the long and calm moment where shirou slowly chant out the whole ubw while being bombarded by weapons for... a full minute? It's still there.
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Nov 20, 2019 22:37
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counterpoint: the shirou archer fight in the ubw anime was insanely bad. no ufotable i dont wanna see your cool cg bullshit everywhere. just have two guys swing swords at each other. no i dont care about how many times you can do that slowmo shot of kanshou and byakuya overlapping. gently caress!!
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Nov 20, 2019 23:06
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My favorite bit of the Gil fight is still actually Gil admitting Shirou won fair and square, running out of Mana be damned.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:11
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Endorph posted:counterpoint: the shirou archer fight in the ubw anime was insanely bad. no ufotable i dont wanna see your cool cg bullshit everywhere. just have two guys swing swords at each other. no i dont care about how many times you can do that slowmo shot of kanshou and byakuya overlapping. gently caress!! So much for "The big problem Fate adaptations suffer from is that they seem terrified of actually adapting anything, instead preferring to go 1:1", huh.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:12
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YggdrasilTM posted:So much for "The big problem Fate adaptations suffer from is that they seem terrified of actually adapting anything, instead preferring to go 1:1", huh.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:23
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Me: i think id like something that isn't a burger UFOtable: heres a burger Me: This burger is burnt. YggdrasilTM: OH, SO YOU DON'T WANT SOMETHING THAT'S DIFFERENT FROM A BURGER???
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Nov 20, 2019 23:25
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Endorph posted:Me: i think id like something that isn't a burger More like "Endorph i think id like something that isn't a burger UFOtable: heres a burnt steak. Endorph: why is this not a burger?" But sure, ok.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:30
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YggdrasilTM posted:More like
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Nov 20, 2019 23:35
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Endorph posted:the archer vs shirou fight is a 1:1 adaptation in every way that matters. It is in the same place in the story, it covers the same themes, it has the same conclusion. The only differences are things forced by them not managing their format well (like the pause in the middle due to the episode cutting off) and repetitive bad CG. I don't think saying just a straight adaptation of the scene would be better than that means that I secretly want a 1:1 adaptation, just that if that was what they were going with anyway they would be better served by just sticking to that, because the changes they inserted were for the worse.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:39
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realistically speaking i think the shirou vs. archer fight in the VN is totally loving unfilmable and ufotable did the best they could like, it's not a bad thing that the original fight is the way it is, the original fight loving rules, but it's almost absurdly wordy and most of the actual coolness of the fight is in the stuff that's not sword-swinging. i do not envy the poor bastard who had to try and figure out how to make that work.
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Nov 20, 2019 23:47
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This may be my bad opinion, but I think the fight shouldn’t be an action scene, but a... Jojo kind of format with 70% cool and 30% action?
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Nov 20, 2019 23:52
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Nyaa posted:This may be my bad opinion, but I think the fight shouldn’t be an action scene, but a... Jojo kind of format with 70% cool and 30% action? that's about the only way you could possibly make it work and resemble the VN fight, yeah e: like, i'm not trying to say ufotable handled it great, i'm just inclined to be charitable to them because adapting F/sn is a monumental loving task; particularly with the Archer fight, because it's more or less every reason why adapting the VN is such a monumental task, crammed into a single fight scene. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 20, 2019 23:53
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the VN fight is better but the anime fight is still really good and endorph has batshit opinions on type moon adaptations
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Nov 21, 2019 00:03
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me, describing this discussion: "don't go in. it's hell in there"
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Nov 21, 2019 00:06
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YggdrasilTM posted:I don't understand. What DID you want from this scene? A change of its place in the story, its themes or its conclusion? a change of its place in the story: i mean yea kind of RevolverDivider posted:the VN fight is better but the anime fight is still really good and endorph has batshit opinions on type moon adaptations
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Nov 21, 2019 00:14
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Endorph posted:themes or conclusion: maybe quote:i dont think 'the most popular tm adaptations and the ones people would say work the best on their own are the ones that made the most changes (f/z, kara no kyoukai)' is really a batshit opinion so much as objective fact YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 00:25
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honestly i would say F/z and KnK working so well compared to the many and sundry F/sn and Tsukihime adaptations is less on them making more changes, and more on the source material just being less weirdly structured and paced to begin with like to adapt Fate/zero you can just loving adapt Fate/zero, you don't have to pick a specific third or fifth of it that (despite appearing to be a separate story at first glance) relies heavily on the other chunks to make sense, and way less of it is taken up by internal monologues about the characters' ideologies and whatnot KnK is a little weirder but still doesn't have that issue
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Nov 21, 2019 00:26
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I agree, I think visual novels in general are very hard to adapt due to the way they're structured and paced. Light novels fit a TV format more naturally.
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Nov 21, 2019 00:45
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Even the HF movies have way more alterations than the F/z anime.
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Nov 21, 2019 00:47
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Rody One Half posted:My favorite bit of the Gil fight is still actually Gil admitting Shirou won fair and square, running out of Mana be damned. I'm not sure if it is admittance of defeat more than admittance that he should've gone all out at the beginning (like he did against Iskandar). Because there's no way Shirou wins if Gil pulls out armor, Ea, and Enkidu's chains from the get go. Actually, I can't remember if that little hand flicker when he reaches for Ea costing him his arm was in the VN or not. AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 01:17
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f/z reorganizes things a fair bit, cuts stuff, and completely alters some stuff. like the rin episode. but yeah i do agree on VNs being harder to adapt. like s;g is maybe the best received VN anime and its specifically based on a VN where A) all the 'routes' are just offshoots of the obviously canonical storyline rather than like, separate stories in their own rights, and B) the writing notably has less internal monologue than a lot of other VNs. like there's still some but it focuses more on banter to get across character stuff, even the protagonist's character. Endorph fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 01:33
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I think F/SN is just awkward because UBW is commentary on Fate, and HF is commentary on UBW. Like the whole reason Shinji and Sakura are handled so weirdly in the second route is to make the third route, where Shirou actually fights to save Sakura from her horrible position, more affecting, right? And similarly Fate doesn’t really interrogate how bonkers Shirou’s dream is because that’s what UBW is about. I don’t think every VN is like that, although tbh my experience with them isn’t that broad. But for example, you can adapt Arcueid’s route like the Tsukihime manga does without the story looking incomplete.
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Nov 21, 2019 01:38
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how are the HF movies so far, on a related note? I haven't gotten around to the first two yet (because 95% of the poo poo I'm hype for is gonna be in 3) e: and yeah the Tsukihime manga works fine, but it's also kind of a weird case where the route they went with is kind of barebones and gave them actual room to fit poo poo from other routes in without it feeling clunky as DEEN proved you really can't just shove UBW and HF poo poo into Fate the same way and have it work at all
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Nov 21, 2019 01:45
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nrook posted:I think F/SN is just awkward because UBW is commentary on Fate, and HF is commentary on UBW. Like the whole reason Shinji and Sakura are handled so weirdly in the second route is to make the third route, where Shirou actually fights to save Sakura from her horrible position, more affecting, right? And similarly Fate doesn’t really interrogate how bonkers Shirou’s dream is because that’s what UBW is about. I don’t think every VN is like that, although tbh my experience with them isn’t that broad. But for example, you can adapt Arcueid’s route like the Tsukihime manga does without the story looking incomplete.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:02
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I liked how they adapted the shirou and red man fight/ mid life crisis. In the vn I liked the latter part more with first person pov switching between shirou and archer while I liked the adaptation part more of shirou is down and contemplating his contradictions while aimer sings in the background.
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Nov 21, 2019 02:36
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Elephant Parade posted:I don't recall Sakura's treatment in UBW being much different from her treatment in Fate: she's Shirou's normie friend whose involvement in the War (but not, I'll note, Shirou's life or the broader themes and plot) always seems to be involuntary and incidental. (Haven't played through in a while, though.) So rather than calling UBW a commentary on Fate and HF a commentary on UBW, I'd say that all three routes are in dialogue with each other. Even Fate stands poorly on its own, though as the first route it fares a little better than the others. assuming I'm not misremembering, yeah, UBW touches very briefly on Shinji being awful to her but it's mostly for the sake of setting Shinji up as a bigger piece of poo poo than previously assumed (Fate makes him look like a dick but not the total loving monster he is in UBW/HF). none of the Zouken stuff is touched on at all and i don't think he even gets mentioned by name until HF. e: i should probably note that, while i feel like i remember the VN pretty well, i last read it front-to-back in high school (nearly a decade ago at this point) and i was also a lot dumber then. i double-check the LP to make sure i'm not misremembering specific scenes when they come up, but i can't really do that for general themes and running things unless i decide to do a full reread and jesus gently caress I'm not doing that, it's longer than War and Peace and took me a whole loving year the first time. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 02:52
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also, for real, Endorph, i'm legit curious about your take on HF because we differ so strongly on it that i'm genuinely not sure we read the same route. like, don't take this as me going aggro; i want to unreservedly like HF because it has some of my favorite moments in the entire VN (mapo tofu, Nine Bullet Revolver, Shirou vs. Kirei at the end) and sets up a lot of Fate/zero, which I do loving love without any reservations. i just also really feel like Sakura gets done dirty by the narrative and her trauma mostly gets used to develop Shirou rather than actually mattering at all to her character. it makes sense that it works out this way, because it's fundamentally not her story, it's Shirou's, but... it just sort of feels lovely to put a character through a wringer that would make loving Guts from Berserk curl up into the fetal position and start gibbering, and then never give that character any real catharsis of her own (as opposed to the Shadow and Dark Sakura, which are just direct results of Zouken's bullshit that happen whether she likes it or not). i mean gently caress, in the Normal end she finishes the story almost exactly the same as she starts: completely broken and obsessed with Shirou to the point of explicitly not being able to live her own life. the only difference is that her direct abusers are super dead. and the True End is only more hopeful on that because Shirou's not dead and can still be her crutch. maybe it's a statement that, for someone who's been through the kind of poo poo Sakura's been through, there's no such thing as a truly happy ending or meaningful long-term improvement, the best you can hope for is just getting away from the direct source of the trauma and finding some kind of uneasy peace. if that's what Nasu was going for, that's loving dark as hell but I guess I don't hate it. but... otherwise, it just kind of comes off kind of hosed up? (but also, again, keep in mind i'm pretty much going off memory here and a reread of the VN is something I absolutely do not plan on doing simply because it's a hell of a loving undertaking that I'm probably not going to have time for in the foreseeable future. i'm totally open to the idea that i'm either straight up wrong here, or my dumb high school rear end misinterpreted what was going on there.)
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Nov 21, 2019 04:48
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That feels like an extremely weird reading of Sakura's character since the ending of HF is like 90% about Sakura taking back control of her life by directly fighting back against her own abusers with her own power. From what I can tell, you are completely writing off Sakura's agency by acting like "Dark Sakura" is just her being possessed or something, when that is absolutely not the case as I understand it.
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Nov 21, 2019 04:57
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Clarste posted:That feels like an extremely weird reading of Sakura's character since the ending of HF is like 90% about Sakura taking back control of her life by directly fighting back against her own abusers with her own power. which is... a bad thing that Shirou and Rin have to stop her from going Too Far on, because that + Zouken fuckery = actual walking apocalypse. like, am I missing something here? because I really do not remember Dark Sakura being portrayed as even remotely a good thing beyond her ganking Shinji and Zouken, and that's more of an incidental silver lining e: yeah, you nailed it, I... was honestly under the impression that when she gives in to the shadow and kills Shinji she's 100% not in the driver's seat anymore, similarly to when the shadow goes rampaging around. I'm not "writing off her agency" so much as I didn't realize she actually had any, rather than Zouken's bullshit basically taking over and putting her in indiscriminate murder mode. if I'm wrong on that (and it would appear that I am) then gently caress yeah, Nasu didn't gently caress up as bad as I thought and I have one less gripe with the story. WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 05:01
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the heaven feels movies are cancelled for cutting the kotomine scenes
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Nov 21, 2019 05:20
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Next AU show should be a detective story where Shirou and Kirei solve magic crimes
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Nov 21, 2019 05:27
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:which is... a bad thing that Shirou and Rin have to stop her from going Too Far on, because that + Zouken fuckery = actual walking apocalypse. like, am I missing something here? because I really do not remember Dark Sakura being portrayed as even remotely a good thing beyond her ganking Shinji and Zouken, and that's more of an incidental silver lining Sakura is sympathetic but not innocent, which plays deeply into the route's themes of choosing to side with your loved ones over some absolute ideal of justice. When she lashes out at Rin that's actually her. Clarste fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Nov 21, 2019 |
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Nov 21, 2019 05:37
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:which is... a bad thing that Shirou and Rin have to stop her from going Too Far on, because that + Zouken fuckery = actual walking apocalypse. like, am I missing something here? because I really do not remember Dark Sakura being portrayed as even remotely a good thing beyond her ganking Shinji and Zouken, and that's more of an incidental silver lining And also, legit question, have you played Hollow Ataraxia? Hollow Ataraxia presents Sakura as completely in control of the social dynamics in Shirou's house, totally aware of what's going on around here, and most importantly, guess what Sakura does in the ending of that game?  Look at the design of the arm guard thing Sakura's wearing. It's the exact same thing as her Dark Sakura dress. That isn't just a random callback, it's pretty obvious intentional visual symbolism. The same way HF Shirou having the arm wrapped in Archer's cloak symbolises him having control over his ideals and sense of self, HA (and by extension, post-HF Sakura) would have control over her power and the impulses that led her to rampage around. It's not about Rin and Shirou teaming up to take away Sakura's agency and power. She still has both those things. If anything, it's about saving her by showing her that she has things she can care about and protect instead of having to use those things to destroy recklessly. I obviously haven't had it as bad as Sakura but I've been in situations similar to hers and felt things similar to her feelings and I read F/SN as a teen and her entire arc meant the world to me. It was the first time I'd ever seen something that walked that line between 'you're broken forever' and 'you deserve to get revenge on the people who wronged you.' it was about anger being justified and control being something you can take back, but also still having love and warmth to give to the world. There's issues, Shinji's character is handled weirdly throughout FSN (and the various spinoffs), the whole worm thing is an unnecessary conflation of the magical bullshit and the actual sexual assault when you could just have Zouken abuse her and also do other, unrelated magic things, and the game never quite actually does anything with the whole Medusa/Sakura thing beyond it being an excuse for Medusa to flashkick Hassan, but it still means the world to me.
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Nov 21, 2019 05:39
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Sakura is the most powerful wizard in FSN.
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Nov 21, 2019 05:47
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