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Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 14 days!


Honest Ray posted:

Shirou Kotomine looks like a problem.

his name is Shiro Amakusa

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

TheLovablePlutonis posted:

his name is Shiro Amakusa

That Shirou in the picture is meant to be a What If I think had he actually gone with the orphanage instead of Kiritsugu, rather then the Fate/Something Shirou that's a Ruler class servant and of no relation iirc.

Kellanved
Sep 7, 2009


Kara no Kyokai was the first thing I saw of this franchise and it's still my favorite, just wish it was part of the main continuity. Disjointed, interesting characters, crazy setting and noirish - I'm a sucker for this stuff. Then I played Fate, and it was ok although Shiro gets repetitive after a while. Watched Tsukihime :psypop: , then played it. Ryougi Shiki best Shiki. So now I'm thinking of watching the UBW adaptation - is it any good? Fate/Zero was nice enough, but knowing how everything ends made it a bit boring.

VoLaTiLe
Oct 21, 2010

He's Behind you

Kellanved posted:

Kara no Kyokai was the first thing I saw of this franchise and it's still my favorite, just wish it was part of the main continuity. Disjointed, interesting characters, crazy setting and noirish - I'm a sucker for this stuff. Then I played Fate, and it was ok although Shiro gets repetitive after a while. Watched Tsukihime :psypop: , then played it. Ryougi Shiki best Shiki. So now I'm thinking of watching the UBW adaptation - is it any good? Fate/Zero was nice enough, but knowing how everything ends made it a bit boring.

Yea Kara no Kyokai is up there in with my all time fav anime things to watch.

I'd love some more storys involving the characters in that

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



UBW is a great adaptation, but there isn't much that's different from the VN.

Also there's nothing that really says Kara no Kyoukai can't be part of the main continuity, and there's even a few references to it in other things, like Shirou referencing Touko at one point.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



It would have to be a different version of Touko like Extra. The main time line is Tsukihime and Fate.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


I believe Nasu has stated that the KnK timeline has no vampires for some reason. My pet theory is that this is a result of Vlad winning the Third Grail War in that timeline.

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

You know, Aiko...
I really wanted to be killed by you.


Endorph posted:

UBW is a great adaptation, but there isn't much that's different from the VN.

Also there's nothing that really says Kara no Kyoukai can't be part of the main continuity, and there's even a few references to it in other things, like Shirou referencing Touko at one point.

And Cornelius showing up in Kiritsugu's flashback in Fate/Zero. (Was that just an anime thing?)

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

It really doesn't matter if KnK exists in a separate timeline because if Shiki ever needs to interact with anyone from the main timeline, she can just kill the barrier between those timelines. Or kill the differences between the two timelines.

My favorite fan comics are the ones where Ryougi Shiki interacts with the other Type-Moon cast members.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Twiddy posted:

It really doesn't matter if KnK exists in a separate timeline because if Shiki ever needs to interact with anyone from the main timeline, she can just kill the barrier between those timelines. Or kill the differences between the two timelines.

My favorite fan comics are the ones where Ryougi Shiki interacts with the other Type-Moon cast members.

Yeah, this. KnK is just a few parallel threads away from being in a different timeline from Tsuki and Fate. Besides, it doesn't stop her from being in Melty Blood and Fate/Extra so.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Both of those games explicitly had her being dragged in from another dimension anyways.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



AlternateNu posted:

And Cornelius showing up in Kiritsugu's flashback in Fate/Zero. (Was that just an anime thing?)
It was just an anime thing, but it doesn't quite contradict the novels. If I remember right, the novels just mention a 'powerful magus using fire' without describing them or giving a name to them, so ufotable just put Corny in as a callback.

legoman727
Mar 13, 2010

by exmarx


When is S2 of UBW starting anyways? March?

Dj Meow Mix
Jan 27, 2009

corgicorgicorgicorgi
rockin everywhere




Late March or early April, yeah.

GhostStalker
Mar 26, 2010

Guys, find a woman who looks at you the way GhostStalker looks at every bald, obese, single 58 year old accountant from Tulsa who managed to win $4,000 by not wagering on a Final Jeopardy triple stumper.

legoman727 posted:

When is S2 of UBW starting anyways? March?

The preview at the end of the last episode of the first cour said April.

HiveCommander
Jun 19, 2012



Kellanved posted:

Kara no Kyokai was the first thing I saw of this franchise and it's still my favorite, just wish it was part of the main continuity. Disjointed, interesting characters, crazy setting and noirish - I'm a sucker for this stuff. Then I played Fate, and it was ok although Shiro gets repetitive after a while. Watched Tsukihime :psypop: , then played it. Ryougi Shiki best Shiki. So now I'm thinking of watching the UBW adaptation - is it any good? Fate/Zero was nice enough, but knowing how everything ends made it a bit boring.

Luceid
Jan 20, 2005

Buy some freaking medicine.


Kellanved posted:

Kara no Kyokai was the first thing I saw of this franchise and it's still my favorite, just wish it was part of the main continuity. Disjointed, interesting characters, crazy setting and noirish - I'm a sucker for this stuff. Then I played Fate, and it was ok although Shiro gets repetitive after a while. Watched Tsukihime :psypop: , then played it. Ryougi Shiki best Shiki. So now I'm thinking of watching the UBW adaptation - is it any good? Fate/Zero was nice enough, but knowing how everything ends made it a bit boring.

I had an absolutely great time with KnK but honestly think the highest point was Spiral Paradox. Ryougi is definitely the best Shiki and Touko is the superior Aozaki sister (outside of Melty Blood I GUESS.)

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


I actually finished a rewatch of KnK today (with the exception of Future Gospel. I'll get around to it), and while I agree Paradox Spiral is the best of the movies, I have to say I enjoyed the sixth movie a lot more this time around than last time I watched KnK. It's definitely the most un-KnK -like of the series, but making Azaka the protagonist in all but name made it a lively change from the other movies. Shiki's great, but I feel Azaka is a neglected character from the series, and it was nice having her in a starring role.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Yeah, part of the problem with KnK is that the cast is small and very few of them get any real focus. F/SN has a huge cast where everyone gets at least a bit of attention, even the minor students if you take F/HA into account, but KnK is basically the Ryougi show. Even Touko and Kokutou don't get a whole lot.

Redmark
Dec 11, 2012

This one's for you, Morph.
-Evo 2013


Honestly that's what I like about it. IMO Nasu's best at his most pretentious, when you have to guess at what the hell anyone's thinking. If someone like Touko got the Shirou treatment we'd get mountains of :words: about how she wanted to be a super magician but she hates her sister so much oh noooo. That was my main problem with F/SN: most of the time the characters were just vehicles for whatever theme Nasu wanted to get at, and not much beyond. The character arcs felt way overwrought.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


All right, time for another long mythology post. Sorry it’s been so long since my last one. This time, I’ll be discussing the Fourth War Servants. Most of the post will be about Gilgamesh, partly because his legend is used in some interesting/weird ways and partly because several Noble Phantasms in his Gate of Babylon have interesting stories in their own right.
Previous posts:
• Fifth War Servants, part 1 (updated/expanded version): http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3671286&pagenumber=11&perpage=40#post436718370
• Fifth War Servants, part 2 (including Bazett and Avenger): http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3671286&pagenumber=16&perpage=40#post437401489

Arturia Pendragon (Saber):
• See Arturia Pedragon (Saber) in the first Fifth War post.

Diarmiud Ua Duibhne (Lancer):
• Diarmuid’s love spot was actually on his forehead, at least according to Lady Gregory.
• Diarmuid had four weapons: the spear Gae Dearg and the sword Moralltach, which he used for life-and-death battles, and the spear Gae Buidhe and the sword Beagalltach, for less serious situations: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/f15.html (also my source for the next few points)
• In at least this version of the legend, both spears inflicted unhealable wounds. However, a confusingly worded passage suggests that Gae Dearg may also have some sort of ability to nullify protective magic.
• Fate/Zero Material suggests that Kayneth intended to summon Diarmuid as a Saber with Moralltach and Beagalltach, although it doesn’t say what these swords do in the Nasuverse. In the legend, Moralltach “left no stroke nor blow unfinished at the first trial,” whatever that means (it could cut smoothly through any material?).

Gilgamesh (Archer):
• The title “King of Heroes” must have been invented by Urobuchi; I can find no sources for it predating Fate/Zero.
• Gilgamesh’s characterization is often cited, in my view unfairly, as a “mistake” showing Nasu’s ignorance of the original story. The mythical Gilgamesh was originally a tyrant who, among other things, practiced jus primis noctis, but became a better ruler after meeting Enkidu.
• So why does Gil seem to have regressed back to his bad old self? An interview concerning Fate/Extra CCC states that Gilgamesh’s villainousness in Zero and Stay Night was due in part to disliking the era he was summoned in, and his less evil personality in CCC is closer to how he was when he was alive. This was hinted at in Unlimited Blade Works when Gil commented that the modern world had too many people whose lives were meaningless, unlike in his own time, when everyone possessed inherent importance.
• On the other hand, Nasu left out an important fact about Gilgamesh from the epic: He was 11 cubits tall – 5 meters, or 16 and a half feet!
• The assertion that Gil has never been a swordsman is a change from the Epic, in which he wields a sword on several occasions.
• In the Epic, Gilgamesh defeats Enkidu in a wrestling match, while CCC has Gilgamesh shoot weapons from Gate of Babylon and Enkidu turn his own body into weapons. While Gilgamesh has a bow in the Epic, his ability to shoot weapons from a pocket dimension is Nasu’s invention.
• Gate of Babylon is oddly named, since Gilgamesh was king of Uruk, not Babylon. Then again, when you can access your treasury from anywhere, its location doesn’t matter much.
• The idea that Gilgamesh obtained all the world’s treasures isn’t actually found in the epic, although it fits the hyperbolic terms in which he is described in the Prologue.
• Ea is based on the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish. “Ea” is another name for Enki, one of the three main Mesopotamian gods; he appears in the Enuma Elish but plays a secondary role to his son Marduk. Marduk slew Tiamat, the embodiment of chaos, and formed the world from her corpse; this seems to be the inspiration for Ea the sword’s power to return the world to primordial chaos. Incidentally, it was Enki who ordered a human to build an ark to preserve life on Earth in the Babylonian version of the Flood myth. Gilgamesh would later meet this Bablylonian equivalent of Noah, Utanapishtim, who had been granted immortality by the gods.
• Some of the part of the Epic describing the battle against the Bull of Heaven has been lost, but it seems that Gilgamesh and Enkidu bound it in some way; this is the basis of the Noble Phantasm Enkidu.
• Sha Nagba Imuru, a Noble Phantasm of the child Gil that appears only in the Hollow Ataraxia card game, is named after the first few words of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It means “He Who Saw the Deep” or “He Who Saw Everything.” Fittingly, this Noble Phantasm allows Gil to look at his opponents’ hands.
• The term Harpe actually refers to a type of sword or sickle (or a combination of the two) from Greek mythology, rather than a single weapon; although Perseus used one to slay Medusa, Cronus also used a Harpe when he castrated Uranus. See also Medusa (Rider) in the first Fifth War post.
• A vimana is a type of flying chariot, or even flying building, from Hindu texts. The high-tech appearance of Gil’s vimana draws on the modern association of such mythical objects with UFOs.
• See also Enkidu, who will be covered when I get around to Strange Fake.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Mar 11, 2015

HellCopter
Feb 9, 2012


College Slice

I appreciate the info. It's interesting seeing how Nasu interprets legends.

When does this start airing again? The only show I'm watching this season is Jojo's.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

HellCopter posted:

I appreciate the info. It's interesting seeing how Nasu interprets legends.

When does this start airing again? The only show I'm watching this season is Jojo's.

Unlimited Blade Works starts airing again in the first or second week or April, so not too long now.

Kellanved
Sep 7, 2009


So I watched this on your recommendation and it's actually pretty drat good. The UBW VN was played years and years ago so I don't re ember all of the details but the adaptation was strangely fresh for me. Shirou acts a bit more real, I enjoy Tohsaka's character and Caster == best Servant amirite? On th eCaster front,, you say that hollow ataraxia is focused on her? I've always thought that she was one of the more relateable Servats, at least in motivation. But overaLL drat, what was their budget for that anime, so purty.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Kellanved posted:

So I watched this on your recommendation and it's actually pretty drat good. The UBW VN was played years and years ago so I don't re ember all of the details but the adaptation was strangely fresh for me. Shirou acts a bit more real, I enjoy Tohsaka's character and Caster == best Servant amirite? On th eCaster front,, you say that hollow ataraxia is focused on her? I've always thought that she was one of the more relateable Servats, at least in motivation. But overaLL drat, what was their budget for that anime, so purty.

She's still a secondary character in Hollow Ataraxia, but she gets some character focus that would have been out of place in F/SN, as do Lancer and Rider.

Myurton
Jan 2, 2004

I <3 Asuka,
omg anime fag

For those of you that are wondering when the second season of Unlimited Blade Works will air, it'll start airing again on Sunday April the 5th. As for the time of day it'll air, don't know yet.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

by Cyrano4747



yes thank you for posting a literal decade-old meme that was funny for maybe three days

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

e: note to self, check post dates before I threadshit :stare:

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Mar 19, 2015

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

At the end of Fate where Saber gives up on the grail, does she not become a Heroic Spirit? Isn't it still automatic she goes to the Throne of Heroes since she's a legendary figure?

Silver2195 posted:

Gilgamesh (Archer):
• The title “King of Heroes” must have been invented by Urobuchi; I can find no sources for it predating Fate/Zero.
• Gilgamesh’s characterization is often cited, in my view unfairly, as a “mistake” showing Nasu’s ignorance of the original story. The mythical Gilgamesh was originally a tyrant who, among other things, practiced jus primis noctis, but became a better ruler after meeting Enkidu.
• So why does Gil seem to have regressed back to his bad old self? An interview concerning Fate/Extra CCC states that Gilgamesh’s villainousness in Zero and Stay Night was due in part to disliking the era he was summoned in, and his less evil personality in CCC is closer to how he was when he was alive. This was hinted at in Unlimited Blade Works when Gil commented that the modern world had too many people whose lives were meaningless, unlike in his own time, when everyone possessed inherent importance.
• On the other hand, Nasu left out an important fact about Gilgamesh from the epic: He was 11 cubits tall – 5 meters, or 16 and a half feet!
• The assertion that Gil has never been a swordsman is a change from the Epic, in which he wields a sword on several occasions.
• In the Epic, Gilgamesh defeats Enkidu in a wrestling match, while CCC has Gilgamesh shoot weapons from Gate of Babylon and Enkidu turn his own body into weapons. While Gilgamesh has a bow in the Epic, his ability to shoot weapons from a pocket dimension is Nasu’s invention.
• Gate of Babylon is oddly named, since Gilgamesh was king of Uruk, not Babylon. Then again, when you can access your treasury from anywhere, its location doesn’t matter much.
• The idea that Gilgamesh obtained all the world’s treasures isn’t actually found in the epic, although it fits the hyperbolic terms in which he is described in the Prologue.
• Ea is based on the Babylonian creation myth, the Enuma Elish. “Ea” is another name for Enki, one of the three main Mesopotamian gods; he appears in the Enuma Elish but plays a secondary role to his son Marduk. Marduk slew Tiamat, the embodiment of chaos, and formed the world from her corpse; this seems to be the inspiration for Ea the sword’s power to return the world to primordial chaos. Incidentally, it was Enki who ordered a human to build an ark to preserve life on Earth in the Babylonian version of the Flood myth. Gilgamesh would later meet this Bablylonian equivalent of Noah, Utanapishtim, who had been granted immortality by the gods.
• Some of the part of the Epic describing the battle against the Bull of Heaven has been lost, but it seems that Gilgamesh and Enkidu bound it in some way; this is the basis of the Noble Phantasm Enkidu.
• Sha Nagba Imuru, a Noble Phantasm of the child Gil that appears only in the Hollow Ataraxia card game, is named after the first few words of the Epic of Gilgamesh. It means “He Who Saw the Deep” or “He Who Saw Everything.” Fittingly, this Noble Phantasm allows Gil to look at his opponents’ hands.
• The term Harpe actually refers to a type of sword or sickle (or a combination of the two) from Greek mythology, rather than a single weapon; although Perseus used one to slay Medusa, Cronus also used a Harpe when he castrated Uranus. See also Medusa (Rider) in the first Fifth War post.
• A vimana is a type of flying chariot, or even flying building, from Hindu texts. The high-tech appearance of Gil’s vimana draws on the modern association of such mythical objects with UFOs.
• See also Enkidu, who will be covered when I get around to Strange Fake.

I've been thinking on this post and I feel that most of the Heroic Spirits didn't literally have those abilities and powers when they were alive, but instead gained them as a sort of interpretation either by the World/Throne of Heroes or by the popular Collective Unconscious which would tie into the whole thing about their powers tied into the strength of their legend.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Raenir Salazar posted:

At the end of Fate where Saber gives up on the grail, does she not become a Heroic Spirit? Isn't it still automatic she goes to the Throne of Heroes since she's a legendary figure?


I've been thinking on this post and I feel that most of the Heroic Spirits didn't literally have those abilities and powers when they were alive, but instead gained them as a sort of interpretation either by the World/Throne of Heroes or by the popular Collective Unconscious which would tie into the whole thing about their powers tied into the strength of their legend.

I think this is less true than common sense might suggest. CCC makes it clear that Gate of Babylon was how Gilgamesh fought in life, for example. Some Servants do have powers they explicitly didn't have in life, like the Hanging Gardens for Semiramis, and others have powers they couldn't have had in life, like Medusa riding something born when she died. In general I think added powers like that are linked either to classes or to skills like Innocent Monster; you don't just get new powers as a Servant by default.

Pureauthor
Jul 8, 2010

ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

In Apocrypha Lancer of Black, who is Vlad Tepes, has a Noble Phantasm that turns him into the vampire modelled after his legend. It's explicitly something he couldn't do in life and he also hates it and refuses to use it unless compelled to via Command Seal.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Pureauthor posted:

In Apocrypha Lancer of Black, who is Vlad Tepes, has a Noble Phantasm that turns him into the vampire modelled after his legend. It's explicitly something he couldn't do in life and he also hates it and refuses to use it unless compelled to via Command Seal.

Right, and he gets that from Innocent Monster.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Key visual for UBW cour 2:

YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 11:39 on Mar 21, 2015

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

does assassin even appear again in UBW I've completely forgotten

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

He fights Saber again at the end.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Well, that image is going right to my pictures folder.

I'm really excited now. :getin:

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Blockhouse posted:

does assassin even appear again in UBW I've completely forgotten
assassin's big moment is at the end of UBW

which isnt saying much but

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 14 days!


I want to make love to all Riders and Casters.

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011
Probation
Can't post for 14 days!


Where is the loving Apocrypha translation/ anime version so i can see more of achilles, astolfo and shakespeare

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

TheLovablePlutonis posted:

Where is the loving Apocrypha translation/ anime version so i can see more of achilles, astolfo and shakespeare
Don't worry, it's probably coming sometime after this new season of Prism Ilya (apparently we're getting another one of those).

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Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


TheLovablePlutonis posted:

I want to make love to all Riders and Casters.

I can understand Iskander Rider, but are you absolutely sure about Zero Caster...

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