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Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!



Endorph posted:

'Nasu is writing fanfiction about his OCs'

Yes. He is. Thats what fiction is.

every time someone uses fanfiction like it's a description that means anything other than literally unofficial fiction based on existing franchises written by hobbyists a tiny hammer should pop out of the keyboard and hit them in the knuckles

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Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Captain Baal posted:

I think these are uncharitable readings of the the characters and their roles in FSN. Herc is absolutely meat mountain mid boss that's meant to be an obstacle, but he's also Hercules because there's a lot of things that come with being the most famous mythological figure in all of history. The invincibility is there because of the labors of the character and this is used multiple times to not only contrast strength of characters, but raise stakes, show character development, and in the case of the Deen anime it creates a David and Goliath fight in Archer vs Berserker that adds a lot of status to Archer posthumously (This of course existed already, but we get to see the details in that anime). His relationship with Illya is entirely founded upon Herc's killing of his own family against his will and wanting to protect Illya so that doesn't happen to her. This increases the stakes and gives added context and characterization to him for scenes like Herc vs Gil or Herc vs Saber where he is so desperate to protect Illya that he continuously fights well past the point logic dictates (That and he's a loving berserker, but it can be both). So like can Herc's spot in the story just be big unbeatable divine dude? Does it necessarily have to be Herc? Technically no, but that doesn't matter.

Hmm I like this reading but it's hard to disentangle it from his unfortunate turn at being the berserker class,one could say that all this is reflecting his mythology, but just as easily reflect the fact that he's a mindless husk fit only for fighting. We see the first interpretation when he protects Ilya from the wolves, but unlike saber he has no added or shifted personality when controlled by Sakura.


Captain Baal posted:

Have aspects of their origins been rewritten to suit what Nasu wants to do with the characters more? Sure. Does that matter? Stories have been retold through time over and over again and have had aspects reshaped constantly, especially those of mythology and fables. So like if you think him using pre-established fictional figures to tell a story here is like lazy or just him trying to cut corners when he could just make other OCs instead I'd say your understanding of why anyone does anything is very shallow and boring? Not to be a dick, but I can't say this in a way that doesn't come off mean.

I'm not saying he's using them as OC's, rather that his writing synchonorizes them poorly into his own work. What is Herakles's sword? What is Rule breaker? they've nothing to do with the original myths. This is presented as a story that brings mythological heroes into a battle drawing on centuries of tradition and story telling, have you ever heard the story of Medea and Rule breaker?

Ruler Breaker is the worst of the lot being a very conspicuous plot contrivance.

Captain Baal posted:

Also I noticed you didn't mention him, but Cu is outright the only real heroic spirit in the entire game that is exactly what it says on the tin. If you have an issue with him, I mean you're just wrong. I don't know what else to say about it.
I often forget he exists, he's fine but his outfit is stupid


Raxivace posted:

I'd argue Medea is also meant as a parallel to Sakura (Maybe not to quite the degree that Medusa is, but relatively close), and is the reason why Rule Breaker is integral to climax of Heaven's Feel.
This would feel better if there was in any way a basis for Rule Breaker existing, I also don't love the parallel. Is Emiya supposed to be Jason? He doesn't exactly callously toss away Sakura, even in the other routes


Endorph posted:

also, 'medusa uses her legend to a lesser degree?' shes a somewhat under explored character in fsn but her entire character and motivation is probably the most tied to her legend of anyone, even more than saber. her sole motivation is protecting a girl who was sexually abused, given monstrous powers, and who, if shirou was a 'hero' in the sense he wants to be, hed have killed upon realizing what she was. sakura's medusa, medusa is sakura. its the entire thematic beat of heaven's feel and its tied solely into medusa's legend. the game never explicitly makes this connection but i think its obvious enough it wouldn't gain anything from shirou going 'thats right... this is just like...' and then a flash to full gorgon medusa or whatever.
I'll consider this.

Just Andi Now
Nov 8, 2009



Gaius Marius posted:

This would feel better if there was in any way a basis for Rule Breaker existing, I also don't love the parallel. Is Emiya supposed to be Jason? He doesn't exactly callously toss away Sakura, even in the other routes
Someone's forgetting about Mind of Steel.

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014



Shinji is the character I had in mind for a Jason parallel. You could maybe argue Zouken too I guess, since they're both dudes who rely on exploiting Sakura's powerful magic to accomplish their own goals against her will.

Raxivace fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Apr 14, 2021

Julias
Jun 24, 2012




Cute ears

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

there are a lot of lines in fate featuring people being callous jerks at the worst times, but archer's trojan horse joke still sticks in my mind

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Raxivace posted:

Shinji is the character I had in mind for a Jason parallel. You could maybe argue Zouken too I guess, since they're both dudes who rely on exploiting Sakura's powerful magic to accomplish their own goals against her will.

I can see where you're coming from but it feels very tenuous. For it to work for me I feel you'd need both a positive and a downslide to the relationship. Zouken and Shinji are purely bad at basically everypoint.

Just Andi Now posted:

Someone's forgetting about Mind of Steel.

I wished they had continued that route, I wanna see just how absolutely hosed Shirou was by the end of it.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



Well, yeah Illya's like the only character he has a connection with. There's no connection with Sakura/The Grail, he's just an attack dog at that point. That's part of the reason why the Grail is so insidious it robs a servant of all of their most admirable aspects and just turns them into a weapon that only somewhat resembles themselves. Berserker has no more to his character because Illya is no longer with him, he's just a monster mindlessly attacking things. Saber is different because she is able to maintain her identity due to already having had it, but her identity is still a distortion of her original self with her only admirable traits shining through when Shiro kills her. This is also seen similarly when (Hey, funny how that works) Berserker is killed by Shiro and Saber in the Fate route and he gives his blessings to Shiro to see through the rest of the Grail War and protect Illya in his place.

Now on the story contrivance thing, yeah of course there are. Any good story is going to have a contrivance, what matters is how much you yourself are willing to believe it or disbelieve it. The best story contrivances are going to make you not realize they're contrivances until you really think about it, but there is nothing inherently wrong with having them so much as how transparent they are. In Rule Breaker's case, I kind of agree it is a very blatant one as the game sets it up super early and then expects me to remember it after like 40 hours of text when it's brought up like once during HF? However, I don't mind it that much honestly as one contrivance in the midst of a lot of excellent writing doesn't necessarily break it apart so much as it's just kind of noticeable the glue connecting the two parts is a little cheap. Like can you deduct points? I guess? But a 98 is still pretty drat good.

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


I don't want to write any more paragraphs so any response I make from here on is going to be one sentence at most as I very rarely get free time to myself on weekdays or have the desire to effort post. Please take consideration in your follow up posts as I'm not getting out of this chair to do anything other than piss and go get another hard seltzer.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Julias posted:

Cute ears

She's perfect op

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


rule breaker makes sense thematically for both medea and the story. medea shouldnt be allowed a happy ending, yet she wants one. the rule is broken. etc. like yeah its not an actual mythological thing but have you ever heard the myth of gilles's magic cthulhu spells, either. no. but it makes sense cause gilles was a hosed up wizard, and with the stance on his arc that zero takes. guy was broken because jeanne died, he gazed too long and too greedily, etc, cthulhu.

Just Andi Now
Nov 8, 2009



If we're gonna roll with Medea being a Sakura parallel, I'd have to say Shirou is her Jason figure, but it's a perceived betrayal, rather than actual. She thinks he's abandoned her for Rin, which she accuses Rin of in one of the interludes.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Just Andi Now posted:

If we're gonna roll with Medea being a Sakura parallel, I'd have to say Shirou is her Jason figure, but it's a perceived betrayal, rather than actual. She thinks he's abandoned her for Rin, which she accuses Rin of in one of the interludes.

She's loving right I would.

Captain Baal posted:

I don't want to write any more paragraphs so any response I make from here on is going to be one sentence at most as I very rarely get free time to myself on weekdays or have the desire to effort post. Please take consideration in your follow up posts as I'm not getting out of this chair to do anything other than piss and go get another hard seltzer.

I'm going to sleep homie

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Make sure you don't get sugondese

Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Apr 14, 2021

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Raxivace posted:

Shinji is the character I had in mind for a Jason parallel. You could maybe argue Zouken too I guess, since they're both dudes who rely on exploiting Sakura's powerful magic to accomplish their own goals against her will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PfrmFzLhq8

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010


Jason owns btw

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

There’s no reason Caster and her master couldn’t have just skipped out on the whole Grail War and gone abroad while the thing was still running, right? That was always my assumption, and I like it thematically: had Medea been able to really be honest with Kuzuki about what she wanted, and if he had clearly communicated his desires in return, they could have survived the war. But instead she risks everything fighting for a prize she doesn’t need and Kuzuki doesn’t care about. In the end, they both die senselessly.

Fate/stay night raises the idea that Medea and Kuzuki are somehow mismatched in personality, which makes sense with this reading of events.

MonsieurChoc
Oct 12, 2013

Every species can smell its own extinction.




Captain Baal posted:

Jason owns btw

My JP Jason is level 90 after LB5.1

Yak of Wrath
Feb 24, 2011

Keeping It Together


nrook posted:

There’s no reason Caster and her master couldn’t have just skipped out on the whole Grail War and gone abroad while the thing was still running, right? That was always my assumption, and I like it thematically: had Medea been able to really be honest with Kuzuki about what she wanted, and if he had clearly communicated his desires in return, they could have survived the war. But instead she risks everything fighting for a prize she doesn’t need and Kuzuki doesn’t care about. In the end, they both die senselessly.

Fate/stay night raises the idea that Medea and Kuzuki are somehow mismatched in personality, which makes sense with this reading of events.


I can't recall if there was something beyond desire for the grail keeping servants bound to Fuyuki, but presumably had they fled, they'd be pursued by whichever master-servant team survived the murder-bowl to complete the grail ritual and probably The Church who are meant to be making sure the whole thing doesn't get out of hand.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Yeah, even as the masters understand it, the grail ritual isn't complete until all the servants are dead. Even if Caster faked her death, it'd be a pretty easy tell when the grail isn't popping up. Winning the war was her best way out.

Of course, you're still correct in that winning the war wasn't really her objective and she didn't make that quite clear to Kuzuki.

Varinn
May 3, 2005



yeah i always assumed kirei's tribal sleeves of command spells were the insurance to stop servants from just leaving and loving up the ritual

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

"すやぁ~じゃなくて!"



Just Andi Now posted:

Just to note, her Noble Phantasm isn't Pegasus, it's the bridle/reins/whip, which is named after Bellerophon because of said story link. Wonder if that means she can't use it for others.

This makes even less sense than it just being Pegasus with a tangentially related name.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


To be fair, it's pretty cute that she can summon pegasus using a magic ritual that involves spilling her own blood.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

Gaius Marius posted:

cmon can't use him as a hero, Lancer.

How dare you say this about the Irish Hercules.

More seriously though, since I don't think anyone has added to it; Cu in at least two if not arguably all three routes dies heroically. In Fate he fights Gil for hours to buy time for Shirou and Saber to escape.

In UBW he hangs on after getting his heart blown out to kill Kotomine and save Rin. Also in UBW he clearly likes Rin which makes him a good person in my book.

In HF it isn't clear to me/I don't remember if he was ordered to go after Cursed Arm or not, but he did his best fighting a monstrous foe in disadvantageous terrain.

The fight against Archer in the prelude is cool and I think to a lesser extent in UBW are like some of the precious few "Honourable single combat" duels in the entire game full of trickery and fibbery ow-my elbow.

It's kinda funny how Cu does act somewhat like the "Lancer" character archetype, showing up and helping the heroes despite ostensibly supposed to being their enemy because he's actually a cool guy. I haven't really got a chance to read through Hollow Ataraxia but I bet he gets more scenes when Bazette is around.

And it's interesting because I think vaguely but especially in the 3rd route it kinda wraps back around to his legend, dying due to circumstances outside of his control but doing his best.

Argas
Jan 13, 2008
SRW Fanatic






Clarste posted:

To be fair, it's pretty cute that she can summon pegasus using a magic ritual that involves spilling her own blood.

It'd be a bit broken if she had to decapitate herself to do it. How does she recover? Can she recover? How much more powerful would it be in order to compensate, etc.

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Endorph posted:

also, 'medusa uses her legend to a lesser degree?' shes a somewhat underexplored character in fsn but her entire character and motivation is probably the most tied to her legend of anyone, even more than saber. her sole motivation is protecting a girl who was sexually abused, given monstrous powers, and who, if shirou was a 'hero' in the sense he wants to be, hed have killed upon realizing what she was. sakura's medusa, medusa is sakura. its the entire thematic beat of heaven's feel and its tied solely into medusa's legend. the game never explicitly makes this connection but i think its obvious enough it wouldn't gain anything from shirou going 'thats right... this is just like...' and then a flash to full gorgon medusa or whatever.
Yeah. In FHA it's also taken further when they talk about how this version of Medusa is at a point where she's on the verge of becoming a monster, which makes sense. Ties into Shirou also being at a crossroads I suppose.

Stairmaster
Jun 8, 2012

nope just me lain


Varinn posted:

yeah i always assumed kirei's tribal sleeves of command spells were the insurance to stop servants from just leaving and loving up the ritual

Important to remember that despite this, medea does win the grail war in one of the bad ends

TheKirbs
Feb 16, 2018

True reality is on this side of the screen



Captain Baal posted:

Unlike my man Urobuchi who definitely does that for like half of them until he's done with them and brutally murders them or in the case of Diarmuid strips him of literally all of his dignity and then brutally murders him. The only ones treated with genuine reverence by the end of it all are Saber, Gil, and Iskandar.



Oh wait, you're serious?

Irony Be My Shield
Jul 29, 2012

PRETTY SURE THAT ONE'S SARCASM, BOSS



Saber has a bad time in FZ but we already knew she ended it wanting to retroactively erase her accomplishments from existence.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020


Has TM ever established if in it's setting the christian God is just another god like there's dozens of running around as servants already, or is he somehow different?

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



Saber getting poo poo on by Kiritsugu is seen as a cold and harsh thing for him to do and everything he makes her do is also bad (Except exploding the grail which is a no winners situation). She is treated as a noble warrior and with respect by a majority of the remaining cast and even though she gets poo poo on by Gil and Iskandar is treated with the same status they are overall. Fate Zero treats other characters much worse see: Diarmuid, Kayneth, Sola Ui, Lancelot, Kariya, Tokiomi, Maiya, Irisviel, and the Hassans. The fact that Saber is going to be in FSN already makes a lot of this stuff they do and say to her not matter as much anyways. The people who all treat her like poo poo get punished by the plot in some way or another excepting Iskandar, but his criticisms of her were never so harsh as to insult anything more than her perspective on what kingship is. Same goes for Gil, but Gil has a much worse personality so he comes off a lot stronger than Iskandar does. Plus Saber already doesn't think a lot of herself, so going through Fate Zero and coming out with the perspective that Saber is dunked on is a silly thing to take away from it when so much happens in those final parts and she is one of the characters who is gonna come away from it least hosed.

Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Apr 14, 2021

Tonfa
Apr 8, 2008

I joined the #RXT REVOLUTION.

he knows...



Does HF3 keep the moment where Shirou's memory of his final chat with Kiritsugu shatters, erasing the reason he became who he was

'cause that's a contender for the best bit of writing in the VN

Aurora
Jan 7, 2008



Acerbatus posted:

Has TM ever established if in it's setting the christian God is just another god like there's dozens of running around as servants already, or is he somehow different?

i'm not sure if the church is elucidated on more in tsukihime but i have to imagine there's a reason they're as powerful as they are

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...



Captain Baal posted:

Iirc Medea kills her own children in the original mythology after she owns Jason and the circumstances surrounding the killing of Medusa are a little different (Like idr if the King is brought up at all in her backstory in FSN, iirc Perseus specifically targets her because she doesn't have the divinity her sisters do), but this is not the first time they've been written sympathetically at all.

Actually Medea killing her children doesn't happen in every telling of her tale. It just so happens that the play written by Euripides in which she does so is famous one.

And even that is kind of also meant to double as "Sparing them from a Fate Worse Than Death" thing because once Jason divorces Medea her children are no longer Greek citizens and will be sold into slavery.

Just Andi Now posted:

Medusa in Fate is a little odd. In Metamorphosis, she was normal human priestess who was assaulted by Poseidon in Athena's temple, who was later cursed by Athena for this "transgression". But Fate uses a different version, where Medusa was one of three sisters who were explicitly not human to begin with and were cursed because of their beauty, which seems to be an amalgamation of different myths.

Fun fact one older academic theory is that the the Perseus vs Medusa myth is a mythological retelling of a older Greek civilization defeating a different civilization. That does line up a bit with the Fate version of the Gorgons.

Acerbatus posted:

Has TM ever established if in it's setting the christian God is just another god like there's dozens of running around as servants already, or is he somehow different?

About the only thing He's been mentioned to do in the story is in FGO where He ordered Solomon to hide away one of his seven rings. Which does directly lead to Goetia being defeated.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020


I find it really funny that the "list of minor characters" on the type-moon wiki has Jesus, for some reason.


Dr Pepper posted:

Actually Medea killing her children doesn't happen in every telling of her tale. It just so happens that the play written by Euripides in which she does so is famous one.


Not to mention the actual reasoning for the killing isn't the same, sometimes it's an accident, sometimes it's to spite Jason.


Dr Pepper posted:


About the only thing He's been mentioned to do in the story is in FGO where He ordered Solomon to hide away one of his seven rings. Which does directly lead to Goetia being defeated.


Aurora posted:

i'm not sure if the church is elucidated on more in tsukihime but i have to imagine there's a reason they're as powerful as they are

I wonder if the fact that the christian God is still widely worshiped while the likes of Zeus, Odin or Quetz aren't has something to do with it.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Dr Pepper posted:

Fun fact one older academic theory is that the the Perseus vs Medusa myth is a mythological retelling of a older Greek civilization defeating a different civilization. That does line up a bit with the Fate version of the Gorgons.

Wasn’t that Ancient Minoan Empire based out of Crete big on snakes somehow, from what little we can tell? We know so little about that pre-Grecian Culture, not even what to properly call it. They were a superpower in the Aegean and Mediterranean and then they just... weren’t.

Green Tea Erotica
May 5, 2010

Anything you can do I can do BETTER


Acerbatus posted:

I wonder if the fact that the christian God is still widely worshiped while the likes of Zeus, Odin or Quetz aren't has something to do with it.

Makes the most sense when Servants legends, noble phantasm and/or how well known they are directly influence power level B.S.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...



Nasu seems to have put God at a similar level of power as Buddha, that is to say so powerful that their direct interference would basically solve the series problems so he just doesn't have them be involved.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

No way...


College Slice

We know mages piggy backed on current existing Christian belief in higher beings (i.e Angels) to keep the mana flowing; I think the ultimate answer to that question is basically "people believe its real so it is real" which has basically has been the underlying mechanism of how the Nasuverse works.

Basically there's no reason to believe that the Christian god as Christians believe, contextualize, and understand God's existence To Be as being Real; but something as a result of that belief IS real and exists very similarly enough that it affects the Mystics and until the current Age ends and a new one begins with new laws of reality to go with it it's how things Are.

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Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012



Dr Pepper posted:

Nasu seems to have put God at a similar level of power as Buddha, that is to say so powerful that their direct interference would basically solve the series problems so he just doesn't have them be involved.

I kicked buddhas rear end in Extra

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