Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



here is a fanart of bazett and avenger being buddies

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Cake Attack posted:

here is a fanart of bazett and avenger being buddies


hard to make an av of tho

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D



My eyes glazed over so fast.

^^^
That is a super adorable fanart though, it makes me feel better and makes me forget that ANN exists

Sylphid
Aug 3, 2012


Maid Bazett exploding an apple.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Asking for More Fate seems unfair but I would appreciate Baz and Avenger in animated form

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Endorph posted:

hard to make an av of tho

yeah that's why i just posted it





i made that out of that, but i'm not sure it's all that good. the lighting is kinda distracting

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



Rodyle posted:

Asking for More Fate seems unfair but I would appreciate Baz and Avenger in animated form
the ufotable ops for hollow ataraxia are extremely cool.

the second one especially

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Rodyle posted:

Asking for More Fate seems unfair but I would appreciate Baz and Avenger in animated form

they said they'd do ataraxia if ubw sold well enough, i think

lol can you imagine the fate/zero people meltdowns over HA?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



can you imagine the meltdowns over caster being a fun housewife in f/ha

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



also im sure someone would get really mad about kotomine's kid

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



I think what's probably going to set people off is all those classic Avenger rape threats

GhostStalker
Mar 26, 2010

Guys, find a woman who looks at you the way GhostStalker looks at every bald, obese, single 58 year old accountant from Tulsa who managed to win $4,000 by not wagering on a Final Jeopardy triple stumper.



Stall_19 posted:

I expect the FSN UBW episode review thread at ANN will be interesting to watch these next few days.


Endorph posted:

holy poo poo the ann review for the latest ubw ep is the worst thing ive ever seen

Oh, it's already happened. Like I tried to defend it previously, but reading the latest one just made my eyes roll so loving hard I just couldn't help it. What in the hell am I even reading anymore? I give up; I'd just rather drop the whole conversation and move on...

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


GhostStalker posted:

Oh, it's already happened. Like I tried to defend it previously, but reading the latest one just made my eyes roll so loving hard I just couldn't help it. What in the hell am I even reading anymore? I give up; I'd just rather drop the whole conversation and move on...

I actually read earlier ANN reviews for the first UBW season because I appreciated the differing view point and if anything I was pleasantly surprised at how fair it was in pointing out the good and bad points of UBW that, you know, actually had to do with what we're watching.

With the recent review, I just feel tired. Maybe it's the dumb hardcore TM fans plus a number of other things, but I don't feel like anyone there is having fun with UBW.

GhostStalker
Mar 26, 2010

Guys, find a woman who looks at you the way GhostStalker looks at every bald, obese, single 58 year old accountant from Tulsa who managed to win $4,000 by not wagering on a Final Jeopardy triple stumper.



Compendium posted:

I actually read earlier ANN reviews for the first UBW season because I appreciated the differing view point and if anything I was pleasantly surprised at how fair it was in pointing out the good and bad points of UBW that, you know, actually had to do with what we're watching.

With the recent review, I just feel tired. Maybe it's the dumb hardcore TM fans plus a number of other things, but I don't feel like anyone there is having fun with UBW.

Yeah, I kinda get that feeling too. That thing that Jay O PMed me last week pretty much confirmed it...

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Rodyle posted:

I think what's probably going to set people off is all those classic Avenger rape threats
I gave him a pass for that on the basis of supposedly being the devil. Fortunately, it's all internal monologues as well.

Compendium posted:

I actually read earlier ANN reviews for the first UBW season because I appreciated the differing view point and if anything I was pleasantly surprised at how fair it was in pointing out the good and bad points of UBW that, you know, actually had to do with what we're watching.

With the recent review, I just feel tired. Maybe it's the dumb hardcore TM fans plus a number of other things, but I don't feel like anyone there is having fun with UBW.
I can imagine that she's getting tired of all the bullshit she has to put up with. Then again, it's also when pressed that people's fundamental viewpoints and understandings are presented, so the current reviews should provide a nice view of what was going on backstage in the former reviews, so to speak.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


The feminist critique stuff seemed kind of... pointless, and didn't really serve the goals of the review in any way, but the basic premise that Shirou's non-decision is just stupid (despite being presented as if it's supposed to be some of triumph of hope over despair), and that no other character in the story actually serves any kind of meaningful purpose, seemed correct to me. In the end, I think that if you don't find Shirou's decision in this episode to be moving, then there's pretty much nothing else in UBW worth salvaging.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS

Butt Frosted Cake posted:

Upon further thought I have decided Nasu's prose is ok for what it is. He just relies so much on exposition I wish I could enjoy the words on the screen more.

Well I mean FSN was written a decade ago but then again I don't know what Mahoutsukai is like.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Clarste posted:

The feminist critique stuff seemed kind of... pointless, and didn't really serve the goals of the review in any way, but the basic premise that Shirou's non-decision is just stupid (despite being presented as if it's supposed to be some of triumph of hope over despair), and that no other character in the story actually serves any kind of meaningful purpose, seemed correct to me. In the end, I think that if you don't find Shirou's decision in this episode to be moving, then there's pretty much nothing else in UBW worth salvaging.
I mean yes, if you disagree with the entire premise and driving point of the show and find the climactic moment to be hollow then it all falls apart. That's how it generally works.

I'm not making fun of you necessarily, but I'm not sure what else you could be expecting. Or... anyone else.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Twiddy posted:

I mean yes, if you disagree with the entire premise and driving point of the show and find the climactic moment to be hollow then it all falls apart. That's how it generally works.

I'm not making fun of you necessarily, but I'm not sure what else you could be expecting. Or... anyone else.

Well, if it wasn't so Shirou focused it might've still been salvageable. To take F/Z as an example, you might care nothing about Kiritsugu and his troubles but still love Waver and Rider. Because the story was willing to be about people other than just Kiritsugu.

UBW isn't about anyone but Shirou. No one but Shirou goes through any character arc. Most of the other characters, even ones who are incredibly important in other routes, are just killed off in a single episode to get them out of the way. Why did they even exist in the first place? Obviously we all know that's because they exist in other routes where they get more development, but that doesn't make UBW feel any better as a stand-alone story. Even, Rin, the supposed "main heroine" in UBW, gets more development in HF.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



well, yeah. some stories are about large casts. some stories are about one person. i don't think ubw being entirely about shirou is a flaw. it's shirou's story, and sticks to that.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Clarste posted:

Well, if it wasn't so Shirou focused it might've still been salvageable. To take F/Z as an example, you might care nothing about Kiritsugu and his troubles but still love Waver and Rider. Because the story was willing to be about people other than just Kiritsugu.
BTW, now that we're in the T/M thread proper, I'm kind of curious about what rings so stupid about the conclusion in UBW to you. That's certainly a more worthwhile discussion then arguing about that review proper.

EDIT: Also the actual reply to the post I quoted was basically summarized by endorph when I was posting, so that. On that point I think we can all agree that's just how it is.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Twiddy posted:

BTW, now that we're in the T/M thread proper, I'm kind of curious about what rings so stupid about the conclusion in UBW to you. That's certainly a more worthwhile discussion then arguing about that review proper.

It's mostly the contrast with HF. UBW Shirou never gets his beliefs actually tested, and in fact his big counterattack to Archer is basically that he hasn't learned anything and will refuse to learn anything. While we're told in other sources that UBW Shirou is unlikely to become Archer in the future, that's certainly not because he learned anything. He just stuck his head in the sand and said "yeah, this path is probably gonna lead me to bad places, but I don't care because my current self stubbornly believes that I won't regret it!" There's no answer to the problem, and no answer pending because there's no indication that his beliefs will ever be tested. He'll just coast through life as Rin's bodyguard/gigolo. And... that's it. How is that compelling?

By contrast, we see in HF that when he's actually confronted with a moral dilemma, he is immediately forced to choose between sticking to his ideals and becoming a murder robot like his father, or giving them up and becoming human. A broken, unhappy human (at least for now), but human. He's forced to make a choice and grow up, one way or another. Which simply highlights the fact that UBW Shirou never grew and never needed to. There is no indication that UBW Shirou would react any differently to the HF dilemma (replace Sakura with Rin, I guess), and no indication that there is any other option for him to take. The choice in HF just makes UBW incredibly pointless, retroactively.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 04:04 on May 25, 2015

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



ubw shirou is the idea that 'even if an ideal is impossible to achieve, we should strive for it.'

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



also how is shirou's future self literally showing up and say this ideal will make you miserable and self-hating and dead with nothing to show for it not challenging his ideal?

he doesn't need to give up on his ideal for it to be challenged. the arc of ubw is that his ideal is challenged, but he decides the despite reality the underlying ideal behind his idea is something worth striving for.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Endorph posted:

ubw shirou is the idea that 'even if an ideal is impossible to achieve, we should strive for it.'

But only if it never gets tested in any way, shape, or form. It's the idea that ignorance is bliss, and ideals can make people happy in controlled circumstances.

Someone coming up to you and saying "your ideal is stupid and you're stupid" is not actually testing it. It would be tested if he had to actually encounter a situation where choosing to save someone is a bad option for him, like, say, HF.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 04:14 on May 25, 2015

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



im gonna put you in a controlled circumstance

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Clarste posted:

It's mostly the contrast with HF. UBW Shirou never gets his beliefs actually tested, and in fact his big counterattack to Archer is basically that he hasn't learned anything and will refuse to learn anything. While we're told in other sources that UBW Shirou is unlikely to become Archer in the future, that's certainly not because he learned anything. He just stuck his head in the sand and said "yeah, this path is probably gonna lead me to bad places, but I don't care because my current self stubbornly believes that I won't regret it!" There's no answer to the problem, and no answer pending because there's no indication that his beliefs will ever be tested. He'll just coast through life as Rin's bodyguard/gigolo. And... that's it. How is that compelling?

By contrast, we see in HF that when he's actually confronted with a moral dilemma, he is immediately forced to choose between sticking to his ideals and becoming a murder robot like his father, or giving them up and becoming human. A broken, unhappy human (at least for now), but human. He's forced to make a choice and grow up, one way or another. Which simply highlights the fact that UBW Shirou never grew and never needed to. There is no indication that UBW would react any differently to the HF (replace Sakura with Rin, I guess), and no indication that there is any other option for him to take. The choice in HF just makes UBW incredibly pointless, retroactively.
Alright. While I'm processing that I'm just gonna put down my basic thoughts on what the endpoint for both those routes are.

Basically, UBW represents idealism, except that it's doubling down on the idealism after realizing that's impossible. The reason I feel this is sometimes necessary and a good action is that even if something is impossible, there is sometimes a lot to be gained by trying to achieve perfection anyway. The reason I feel this way is because honestly, I have read way too much philosophy, literature, and poo poo that can basically articulate that knowledge itself is impossible. We simply can't know things with certainty. It is entirely possible that no matter how hard people work, a higher truth will never reveal itself. The entirety of the advancement of physics has basically been proving one theory incorrect after another. It is probably that sometime in the future we will find that our current understanding of relativity and quantum mechanics was basic and primitive. That said, by attempting to achieve what seems impossible (or if you believe all the bullshit I had to read, what actually is impossible, a la Descarte's loving demon), we have made many scientific breakthroughs that make human life easier and better. While we have continuously been wrong in that advancement, we have been "right enough" to build bridges, create computers, and even create this goddamn internet. Similarly, while Shirou's ideals of "Save Everyone" are impossible, in the process of trying to achieve those ideals he is going to end up saving a lot of lives. He's not going to save every single one, but his pursuit will still produce meaning.

By contrast, HF is compromising ideals with reality. I don't think I have to convince you why that has meaning or his has its own benefits, so I guess I'll just leave off there.


EDIT: BTW I'm just gonna say that I prefer HF's ending and solution, and my best friend prefer's UBW's. He was the one who was always the better one at straight math, I trumped in areas like economics. I am positive this is no accident.

Twiddy fucked around with this message at 04:17 on May 25, 2015

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Honestly, I've always been better at math and something of an idealist. I just think Shirou's particular ideal is really stupid and the way he avoids confronting his flaws is just pig-headed, not heroic.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

I have basically the exact same opinion as Clarste. I get what UBW is going for, but Shirou is never forced to actually sacrifice anything. His future self just shows up to try and break his spirit. Hell, I actually see him like Rin: he wants to be a superhero, but when the chips are down he honestly cares more about the people in his daily life than some nebulous amount of other people. Like that time in UBW where Taiga getting threatened made Shirou drop everything.

Part of it is probably that I view F/SN as one complete story of Fate > UBW > HF, with HF being the "correct" conclusion, even though I know full well that all three routes are valid in their own way. Meh.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Clarste posted:

Honestly, I've always been better at math and something of an idealist. I just think Shirou's particular ideal is really stupid and the way he avoids confronting his flaws is just pig-headed, not heroic.
That works, too. By contrast, I consider his single-mindedness virtuous and I wish him luck in saving all the people he can before he gets lynched and hope he dies with a grin on his face saying, "yeah, I sure showed that Archer rear end in a top hat."

EDIT:

Yeah what I'm seeing is that Clarste's problem with UBW is that the narrative isn't properly testing the point. I think the way it's structured is fine as far as provoking doubling-down the chips, which is again how I see UBW.

Twiddy fucked around with this message at 04:31 on May 25, 2015

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



idk would ubw really have been better if taiga had died or something

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


If it had tested the point, then I doubt anyone would have died, since the proper resolution to a test like that, with ideals like Shirou's, would be for Shirou to magically come up with some unheard of way to save everyone. It would have been cheesy, but at least it would have been something. As it is, we just see a Shirou get really stubborn with no basis whatsoever and we're expected to see that as a good thing.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

You're missing the point. Shirou would never just let Taiga die if he could prevent it, even if it was the better move. That's one of the things that separates him from Kiritsugu, and kind of the basis of HF.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


Discussion aside, I really like this image.



Just having lovely visuals and cool action probably won't save UBW, but drat it's still a good thing to have after ugly DEEN stuff and I will take it all.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Clarste posted:

If it had tested the point, then I doubt anyone would have died, since the proper resolution to a test like that, with ideals like Shirou's, would be for Shirou to magically come up with some unheard of way to save everyone. It would have been cheesy, but at least it would have been something. As it is, we just see a Shirou get really stubborn with no basis whatsoever and we're expected to see that as a good thing.
Yeah that's the much more standard method of approaching this particular brand of heroism, like in the first Spiderman live-action movie where Green Goblin goes, "Now, choose!" The thing I kind of like about the UBW approach is that Archer is saying, "I'm literally from the future, there IS no third option. You can't find it, it's not there. Do you still want to keep trying this?"

I mean, if that was actually tested, one of the choices would have to die. That's the point of Archer being there saying you can't do it.

EDIT:

I guess what I'm saying is, do you want Shirou to try to save Mary Jane and the school bus and break his back in the process because realistically you can't save everyone? Or for the schoolbus of kids to die? Because that's the actual conclusion that UBW is aiming for, and it's really not pretty when put in that context.

Twiddy fucked around with this message at 04:47 on May 25, 2015

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Clarste posted:

It's mostly the contrast with HF. UBW Shirou never gets his beliefs actually tested, and in fact his big counterattack to Archer is basically that he hasn't learned anything and will refuse to learn anything. While we're told in other sources that UBW Shirou is unlikely to become Archer in the future, that's certainly not because he learned anything. He just stuck his head in the sand and said "yeah, this path is probably gonna lead me to bad places, but I don't care because my current self stubbornly believes that I won't regret it!" There's no answer to the problem, and no answer pending because there's no indication that his beliefs will ever be tested. He'll just coast through life as Rin's bodyguard/gigolo. And... that's it. How is that compelling?

By contrast, we see in HF that when he's actually confronted with a moral dilemma, he is immediately forced to choose between sticking to his ideals and becoming a murder robot like his father, or giving them up and becoming human. A broken, unhappy human (at least for now), but human. He's forced to make a choice and grow up, one way or another. Which simply highlights the fact that UBW Shirou never grew and never needed to. There is no indication that UBW Shirou would react any differently to the HF dilemma (replace Sakura with Rin, I guess), and no indication that there is any other option for him to take. The choice in HF just makes UBW incredibly pointless, retroactively.

A point to make is that presumably, Archer isn't trained by Rin in his time line, and probably never figures out his Reality Marble until he's told the incantation by Alaya. So in UBW depending on True/Good in, he has Rin's training plus early access to the Reality Marble, so he can stop beings like Angra Mainyu and has the power to for the most part help everyone (And has friends to help out).

You can view UBW through the lens of the Heroes Journey at the step where the Call is trying to tempt him away and test his resolve. He's shown a form of absolute despair for him in how everything he cares about will come to nothing and he'll end up killing loads of people in circumstances beyond his control as a murder robot, without even the ability to remember the faces and names of who he killed.

So by doubling down his chips he's rewarded, and gains the ability to push past that 'bad future'.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Raenir Salazar posted:

So by doubling down his chips he's rewarded, and gains the ability to push past that 'bad future'.

The problem is that it never shows him gain that ability. It stops right after he reaffirms his beliefs, as if that's all we needed. Heck, it's still theoretically possible for him to become Archer in the future, and it's still possible that he'll look back on his life with regret, again, because he literally hasn't changed anything about himself. He says he won't regret it, but why should that change anything? I said tons of stuff as a teenager and that didn't change anything. Without having his ideals tested in some way, everything he does here is meaningless. It's literally just all talk.

Twiddy
May 17, 2008

To the man who loves art for its own sake, it is frequently in its least important and lowliest manifestations that the keenest pleasure is to be derived.

Clarste posted:

The problem is that it never shows him gain that ability. It stops right after he reaffirms his beliefs, as if that's all we needed. Heck, it's still theoretically possible for him to become Archer in the future, and it's still possible that he'll look back on his life with regret, again, because he literally hasn't changed anything about himself. He says he won't regret it, but why should that change anything? I said tons of stuff as a teenager and that didn't change anything. Without having his ideals tested in some way, everything he does here is meaningless. It's literally just all talk.
So do you want him to die the same way Archer does with a smile on his face? Because unfortunately, that's basically the point of UBW's conclusion.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Twiddy posted:

So do you want him to die the same way Archer does with a smile on his face? Because unfortunately, that's basically the point of UBW's conclusion.

Sure, why not? That wouldn't have been a terrible ending.

Wasn't that Saber's ending in Fate?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010



College Slice

Clarste posted:

The problem is that it never shows him gain that ability.

What do you mean? We have the whole fight with Gilgamesh and then the epilogue where he either becomes Besties with Rin or Besties with Rin and Saber. The butterflies have basically bulldozed that future into oblivion.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply