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BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Wait are you honestly telling me you prefer the ending that is the game calling you on learning absolutely nothing from the entire story and staying a selfish rear end in a top hat to the very end? :psyduck:

I'm going to hope my irony detectors are just broken because otherwise uhhhhh.

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Endorph
Jul 22, 2009



BlitzBlast posted:

Wait are you honestly telling me you prefer the ending that is the game calling you on learning absolutely nothing from the entire story and staying a selfish rear end in a top hat to the very end? :psyduck:

I'm going to hope my irony detectors are just broken because otherwise uhhhhh.
Some people hate Sakura and also hate endings that are even remotely happy, possibly because Cindy never went to the dance with them in high school.

Hommando
Mar 2, 2012


HF True is the best ending because it has the most Rider.

YggdrasilTM
Nov 7, 2011



Kubla Khan posted:

I'm not a huge fan of stuff like "A+ class magic", "I can recover 6 mana points a day!", "Gilgamesh is using his class ability" etc, it just feels awkward outside of a video game. I can overlook it but I'd still prefer if magic were more mystical and strange. I liked the idea of 'sorcery' vs. regular magic.

It's completely deliberate. Nasu is a big RPG nerd.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Hommando posted:

HF True is the best ending because it has the most Rider.

:agreed: 1000%

Eej fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Oct 17, 2014

Lt. Lizard
Apr 28, 2013


Hommando posted:

HF True is the best ending because it has the most Rider.

This here is objective truth.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

"At the end of a miracle" is also by far the saddest scene in the game. You had to go through hell to get that ending; it was deserved :mad:

This is also why I strongly recommend using a projection in the fight against Saber Alter, so that you get the Normal ending out of the way sooner (w/o the Kotomine battle) and have an even better build up for Return to the Spring.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Re: the three families, Ilya, the Einzberns, etc

The Einzberns aren't after the Root. They in fact never were after that, which is the point of Ilya's infodump about the grail to Rin in HF. Only the Tohsakas sought the root like proper Magi, Zouken wanted to do good with that power at first but went crazy and got fixated on staying alive. What the Einzbern wanted, and had wanted for 500 years before the Holy Grail Wars started, was to regain their lost mastery of Heaven's Feel, the 3rd Magic. And indeed, in HF they manage to exactly that for about 5 seconds, because that's how Ilya brings Shirou back. The actual Einzbern game plan for the 5th War is that Ilya would take part, crush everyone with Berserker, and then when her functions shut down from having too many servants, one of the MAIDS turns into the Dress of Heaven needed to conduct the ritual and the other actually directs the final stages of the operation/takes the magic back to Germany (I forget which role Sela and Leysrit each take). Ilya being able to use the 3rd Magic herself in HF is because Sakura absorbed a bunch of the Servants instead, allowing Ilya to maintain her ability to move independently.

Chalupa Picada
Jan 13, 2009



Even though it was a patched in Ending, and Fate is by far my least favorite, End of the Dream owns a whole bunch. :allears:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aShk40wOGQc

That music gets me everytime!

AfroSquirrel
Sep 3, 2011



The best thing about HF True is that in the middle of the touching reunion Rin is already planning out how the four of them could win a tournament and get money so that she can balance her checkbook.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012

I just couldn't look at your old avatar anymore
Fucking nauseating!


Rodyle posted:

Re: the three families, Ilya, the Einzberns, etc

The Einzberns aren't after the Root. They in fact never were after that, which is the point of Ilya's infodump about the grail to Rin in HF. Only the Tohsakas sought the root like proper Magi, Zouken wanted to do good with that power at first but went crazy and got fixated on staying alive. What the Einzbern wanted, and had wanted for 500 years before the Holy Grail Wars started, was to regain their lost mastery of Heaven's Feel, the 3rd Magic. And indeed, in HF they manage to exactly that for about 5 seconds, because that's how Ilya brings Shirou back. The actual Einzbern game plan for the 5th War is that Ilya would take part, crush everyone with Berserker, and then when her functions shut down from having too many servants, one of the MAIDS turns into the Dress of Heaven needed to conduct the ritual and the other actually directs the final stages of the operation/takes the magic back to Germany (I forget which role Sela and Leysrit each take). Ilya being able to use the 3rd Magic herself in HF is because Sakura absorbed a bunch of the Servants instead, allowing Ilya to maintain her ability to move independently.

So what happened in the first 3 wars? Clearly in the first war everyone involved must've known what was going on, the second must've been successful I guess, and the third was were the Einzberns poisoned the well with Avenger.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



pentyne posted:

So what happened in the first 3 wars? Clearly in the first war everyone involved must've known what was going on, the second must've been successful I guess, and the third was were the Einzberns poisoned the well with Avenger.

None succeeded for various reasons.

anglachel
May 28, 2012


pentyne posted:

So what happened in the first 3 wars? Clearly in the first war everyone involved must've known what was going on, the second must've been successful I guess, and the third was were the Einzberns poisoned the well with Avenger.

The first 2 failed because of a combination of factors. The 1st wasn't supposed to be a war at all. It was all three families working together and then a "holy poo poo only one person gets the wish" moment. The 2nd one resulted in everybody involved dying due to it being a full on free for all with every master ending up dead, so nobody got to make a wish. Which is why they then had the Church get involved to mediate the fight. The 3rd One failed because the Japanese Imperial Army ended up destroying the Lesser Grail Vessel. Then all other grail wars were ruined cause of the Einzberns poisoning of the grail. Note that the Einzberns knew the grail was poisoned, but they still felt the destruction it would cause was worth them getting the 3rd magic back. Them hiring the notorious mage killer Kiritsugu makes more sense if you figure the Einzberns thought he was a stone cold killer who didnt give any fucks about collateral damage (which based on his history seemed like a safe assumption to make).

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.


Endorph posted:

Some people hate Sakura and also hate endings that are even remotely happy, possibly because Cindy never went to the dance with them in high school.

No, its because the Heaven's Feel True End is a Deus Ex Machina.

I'm not entirely sure I understood what was supposed to be occurring to Shirou's body in the HF True End either. Anyone care to explain it?

Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Oct 17, 2014

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Angry Grimace posted:

No, its because the HF True End is a literal Deus Ex Machina.

The only part of it which is a Deus Ex Machina is the answer to your second question. Ilya intervening and destroying the Grail to save Shirou makes perfect sense and is foreshadowed to hell and back.

Angry Grimace posted:

I'm not entirely sure I understood what was supposed to be occurring to Shirou's body in the HF True End either. Anyone care to explain it?

Aozaki Touko constructed him a puppet body and transferred his consciousness to it. She's so good at constructing simulacra that it's literally impossible to tell the real person from the fake, so there's precedent, but it's still a pretty dubious last-minute crossover.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS


Shirou straight up died and Ilya used Heaven's Feel to bring his soul back and they put it in a doll made by Touko. As his soul becomes more used to the doll it becomes more like his real body but it's still described as his soul piloting the body via remote control, which I assume means he feels weirdly detached from his new body since it's not his real body.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

There's the stuff with the puppet, but before that Shirou was given some sort of new body by Illya's incomplete Third Magic to prevent him from dying in the first place. Basically she took his soul and constructed new flesh for it, but being incomplete it was just some sort of lump of "something" that Rider could rescue later after it was all over. By sticking that into the puppet the two in conjunction effectively replicate his original form.

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

The only part of it which is a Deus Ex Machina is the answer to your second question. Ilya intervening and destroying the Grail to save Shirou makes perfect sense and is foreshadowed to hell and back.

Aozaki Touko constructed him a puppet body and transferred his consciousness to it. She's so good at constructing simulacra that it's literally impossible to tell the real person from the fake, so there's precedent, but it's still a pretty dubious last-minute crossover.

Whether it makes sense or not, Illya using legitimate divine sorcery to make Shirou alive and resolve the plot is still a deus ex. So what exactly was Shirou.....doing before this puppet thing occurred? What was he?

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Being clearly foreshadowed and based on established logic makes it not a DEM. Goons shouldn't use narrative terminology, they don't know how it works. The Grail runs on the Third Sorcery, Ilya is intimately connected to the Grail, and what she uses on Shirou isn't "legitimate divine sorcery," it's a desperate and incomplete version of it, much like the Grail itself. All she does is a variation on what Einzberns have been doing throughout the entire franchise.

Shirou in the mean time is basically a lump of flesh with just enough life support that Rider could scoop him up and get him to a mage hospital.

Nate RFB
Jan 17, 2005



Clapping Larry

Angry Grimace posted:

Whether it makes sense or not, Illya using legitimate divine sorcery to make Shirou alive and resolve the plot is still a deus ex. So what exactly was Shirou.....doing before this puppet thing occurred? What was he?
That's only true if you hadn't been paying attention to basically anything Illya had been saying throughout the game, especially in HF. It was telegraphed to hell.

As for what Shirou was doing, well not much beyond existing.

quote:

…But it wasn't perfect. Maybe Ilya's Third Sorcery didn't match the original.
A few days after the cavern collapsed, the Shirou Rider found was just a bit different from the Shirou we knew.
…No, she didn't find him, she picked him up… no, it was more like she plucked him out.
It's up to your imagination as to what he looked like at that moment.

Myriad Truths
Oct 13, 2012


That Ilya could transfer Shirou's consciousness around was foreshadowed alllllll the way back in Fate, in one of the bad ends, as I recall.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Nate RFB posted:

It's up to your imagination as to what he looked like at that moment.

AfroSquirrel
Sep 3, 2011




Probably had more swords involved.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Nate RFB posted:

It's up to your imagination as to what he looked like at that moment.
Emillya :v:

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

I always assumed he got his soul put into grand jewel Rin used to save his life, since that felt especially thematic.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

HF True is basically a massive parallel to the ending of the fourth war, with the significant difference being that Shirou chose to be human. So while Kiritsugu has to deal with a slowly dying body, Shirou has friends who can actually do something about his situation. He's still basically crippled for life and will probably never be able to fight seriously again (just like Kiritsugu!), but that's ultimately for the best.

KaneTW
Dec 2, 2011



BlitzBlast posted:

HF True is basically a massive parallel to the ending of the fourth war, with the significant difference being that Shirou chose to be human. So while Kiritsugu has to deal with a slowly dying body, Shirou has friends who can actually do something about his situation. He's still basically crippled for life and will probably never be able to fight seriously again (just like Kiritsugu!), but that's ultimately for the best.

That's not the case.

Angry Grimace
Jul 29, 2010

ACTUALLY IT IS VERY GOOD THAT THE SHOW IS BAD AND ANYONE WHO DOESN'T REALIZE WHY THAT'S GOOD IS AN IDIOT. JUST ENJOY THE BAD SHOW INSTEAD OF THINKING.


BlitzBlast posted:

HF True is basically a massive parallel to the ending of the fourth war, with the significant difference being that Shirou chose to be human. So while Kiritsugu has to deal with a slowly dying body, Shirou has friends who can actually do something about his situation. He's still basically crippled for life and will probably never be able to fight seriously again (just like Kiritsugu!), but that's ultimately for the best.

Rin said he could train to use the Reality Marble in his current form in the HF True end.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

Post HF, Shirou is in a brand new puppet body that is utterly reliant on Sakura to continue functioning. He can still use UBW because it his soul and that didn't change, but that doesn't mean he can fight effectively with it.

Kiritsugu could still use magic after getting cursed too! He just couldn't do half the poo poo he used to.

Bholder
Feb 26, 2013



Play Battle Moon Wars to know how Shirou does after HF.

Silver2195
Apr 4, 2012


Bholder posted:

Play Battle Moon Wars to know how Shirou does after HF.

You do know that Battle Moon Wars is fanfiction, right?

Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



It's also the worst kind of Fanfiction because makes Gilgamesh unplayable.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



Silver2195 posted:

You do know that Battle Moon Wars is fanfiction, right?

It's a joke Silver. A joke.


Beef Waifu posted:

It's also the worst kind of Fanfiction because makes Gilgamesh unplayable.

It's the worst for a lot of reasons really. Those OG characters are just the worst.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn

I'd bash the terrible map design over the plot any day of the week.

Although it was the game where I found out that I'd been playing SRW games completely wrong, so that's something.

Rody One Half
Feb 18, 2011



The music's pretty great though! Wallachia gets some weird JP hiphop theme.

BlitzBlast
Jul 30, 2011

some people just wanna watch the world burn



:allears:

EDIT:



archer I think you might have a complex about this

If for some reason you haven't jumped on that HA translation, you really should. So fun.

BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Oct 18, 2014

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Well. That was a talky episode of FSN. There were some deviations from how I remembered it, though, so I do wonder if we are meant to accept this, or whether we'll learn that Kotomine is bullshitting completely later. (E.g. the idea that masters have to kill each other, which I think is 100% a lie, right?)

Cake Attack
Mar 26, 2010



Fangz posted:

Well. That was a talky episode of FSN. There were some deviations from how I remembered it, though, so I do wonder if we are meant to accept this, or whether we'll learn that Kotomine is bullshitting completely later. (E.g. the idea that masters have to kill each other, which I think is 100% a lie, right?)

kotomine is full of poo poo yeah, the reason the grail went off in the fourth war is because of the grail being corrupted or however that works, not that kiritsugu was deemed unworthy or something.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D


And Waver is alive too, but at least he's out of the country so Kotomine can bullshit to the max. :v:

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Captain Baal
Oct 22, 2010



Kiritsugu really should've left like a note or something saying "Don't listen to Kotomine, he's full of poo poo." considering the dude lives down the street from him.

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