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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


In the context of a bunch of stuff we learn in HF, several aspects of the resolution of UBW is rather questionable, yeah. Especially Shinji surviving.

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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Lt. Lizard posted:

Funny, I never noticed there was a distinction, but that makes sense. Although I do wonder how are classified those hosed-up ends where Shiro is technically alive, but would be better off dead.

As for Mind of Steel, Kotomine seemed to really like the new Shiro, so I always figured he would help him out a bit.

Kotomine is the ultimate troll. He was probably inwardly thinking how hilarious it's going to be when Rin or Ilya would end up having to kill Shirou. He's not going to actually help Shirou unless it's to maximise delicious suffering.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Shirou was brought up by Kiritsugu, then Taiga.

Shinji was brought up by Zouken.

Is there any more explanation required?

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I just don't see Shinji as every being able to be 'scared straight', though, so the resolution of UBW seems so unconvincing to me. If he can't pick on Sakura then he will pick on someone else. His personality is just that sort of nasty exploitative thing.

Reminder that the blood fort thing showed he was willing to kill literally everyone in school to get his way. Someone like that is not redeemable.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Oct 14, 2014

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Sylphid posted:

To be honest, my time through stay night I didn't really "get" the problem with using all three Command Spells. The dialogue was saying it's a bad idea, because then your Servant could do anything they wanted, up to and including turning on their Master, but all of the Servants, with the exception of Lancer (kind of. He likes Bazett, but hates Kirei), and Caster liked the person who summoned them. Even if Archer does betray Rin, it wasn't really out of malice and more of his hands being tied regarding Shirou.

zero made it a lot clearer why the Command Spells are important. Three chances to compel your Servant to do something specific or gain a very momentary advantage, like teleporting somewhere or what have you. If you use them for stupid things, then other Masters still have those chances you wasted.

HF has a rather different explanation, IIRC: if you run out of command spells, then you are unable to win the War. That's because the final spell is ultimately used to *betray* the Servant, consuming the Servant so that the Grail can be completed. Or maybe I am misremembering?

A master without command spells can still obtain command spells by various means.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Iretep posted:

You'd think Tohsaka would know but who knows honestly, Kotomine might have kept her in the dark about it.

Tohsaka definitely doesn't know. Her knowledge of the Holy Grail War is totally filled with holes by design.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Scrree posted:

Can someone with a better memory of Tsukihime go over all of the Tohno Family Shenanigans? I was trying to think of how to summarize the game to someone, and while Near Side was pretty clear I couldn't remember Far Side more than Shiki breaks a chair and Crimson Red Vermilion.

The family had superpowers that made them go crazy, dad decided to solve this issue by the handy expedient of child rape (of Kohaku). Also there was another kid, also called Shiki, but spelt differently as SHIKI, unlike our protag Shiki who is adopted. Just like his daddy, SHIKI is a child rapist. But Kohaku drugs him up into going crazy so SHIKI murders dad and is hidden away.

After dad died, Akiha fired everyone except Hisui and Kohaku, and the two sisters switched personalities for some reason, thus confusing the gently caress out of everyone and especially Shiki who liked Kohaku. Anyway Kohaku plots some kind of convoluted revenge scheme against everyone, including drugging Shiki to make him go nuts, and eventually SHIKI dies, Kohaku realises she wuvs Shiki, and the game ends.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I think in comparison to the previous war, the Einzberns are very much a spent force. For the fourth war, they brought together the best Master, the best Servant, a regeneration/shielding artifact capable of tanking Ea, an assassin on the side, and a vaguely cheaty split master thing. Even with Tohsaka also going all out, they pretty much won the war... Except that they were betrayed at the last minute.

Ilya was lucky to have summoned berserker, but she was never designed for this war, and she doesn't represent anywhere near the same degree of commitment Kiritsugu did. I think she was in the end just an attempt to make some use of time-limited assets. Einsbern just wasn't really even trying any more.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I can imagine Taiga lending Shirou her jrpgs and games console.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Well. That was a talky episode of FSN. There were some deviations from how I remembered it, though, so I do wonder if we are meant to accept this, or whether we'll learn that Kotomine is bullshitting completely later. (E.g. the idea that masters have to kill each other, which I think is 100% a lie, right?)

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Beef Waifu posted:

Kiritsugu really should've left like a note or something saying "Don't listen to Kotomine, he's full of poo poo." considering the dude lives down the street from him.

Yeah... watching this again, it occurs to me that things would be very different if Shirou just confirmed everything with Saber right now.

Saber: "Hmm, that's not quite how I remember it..."

Rin: "Well, that's what Kotomine has always said, and I think he'll know the rules a bit better than..."

Saber: "You mean, Kotomine Kirei, the guy who was Kiritsugu's greatest enemy during the last war, and the guy who murdered Tohsaka Tokiomi and stole his Servant?"

Rin&Shirou: "What"

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Blhue posted:

Basically just how it ended, iirc. I think Saber gives Shirou the account she can towards the end of Fate, and Kotomine fills in a bit more with his posturing after you know he's the villain. Ilya tells you a little bit more in HF.

I haven't watched today's episode, but did they have Saber enter the church with Shirou for some reason? She stayed outside in the VN, probably so she could not meet Kotomine early. Also no one but her has any idea yet that she's the same Saber that fought in the 4th war.

She stayed outside, but she also told the two of them that she was summoned into this era before. And that she has a past history with Kirei.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Doesn't the Grail itself ultimately choose the Servants and the Masters? The summoning ritual itself is just encouraging the grail to do a certain thing, but to some extent the entire thing isn't needed. See e.g. how Shirou summons Saber.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Cake Attack posted:

meh no effect is a little much, it pretty much nukes the area and is enough to have Ilya call Berserker off

also Crunchyroll spells Illya with two ls and it bothers me

My understanding is that Ilya is worried because she realises she's facing an opponent that is destroying priceless irreplaceable Noble Phantasms without giving a drat.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Beef Waifu posted:

He was aiming for Berserker, but he didn't mind Shiro and Saber getting swept in the blast too. Really, the entire fight is great since it shows off all three servants spectacularly and the anime did a great job of escalating each assault from Archer. I also appreciated them having Saber just loving tear through Berserker, it was cool.

I think it's weird though, that they didn't reveal him as Heracles, but chances are they will talk about it next episode or use it as a big reveal for later.

They could be saving it for Nine Bullet Revolver...

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Mahoyo has a male protagonist?

That's... uh, disappointing.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


The problem for me is mainly that by adapting the first route, you basically miss out on all of the main themes of the story - the idea of the two choices Shirou makes, in UBW, and in HF. Without that theme, Fate's story is just a series of events that happen. Some baddies appear, get nuked by overwhelming firepower, happy ending. Only UBW and HF are interesting as fundamentally stories about protagonists having realisations about themselves.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Pureauthor posted:

Also, Battle Moon Wars is basically just SRW in a Type-Moon skin, with a pair of stupid OCs. Map design isn't particularly good.

I thought that it was fun for all the attack animations and music, though. I think it's enjoyable as long as you don't expect too much from it, and also try and just blitz through as quickly as you can.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


BlitzBlast posted:

Good luck doing that when there's like 50 enemies with way too much HP.

Hollow Ataraxia finale. :argh:

Maybe you are on hard difficulty, or something? I had no trouble at all. The trick is to get one of the Real-type characters (the girl OC is a good example) with that skill that boosts aim/evade, and the skill that boosts damage built up as high as possible. Then just walk her forwards. Because she has the lowest HP, the AI will target her - even though they have a 0% chance to hit. Then she'll just counterattack and oneshot everything.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Myurton posted:

Actually dude there is 4 more episodes after that, the last 2 movies, the epilogue and the extra OVA called Mirai Fuken.

Edit:

You know I was thinking that the characters I would love to see in a future Nasu work are Altrouge Brunstud along with Primate Murder and Type Mercury. Both would have absolutely insane fights, that and the fight against Crimson Moon.

Primate Murder and Altrouge makes the thing that was being created in Heavens Feel, Angra Mainyu to be weak in comparison, and Type Mercury is just really freaking weird and horrifying and very OP.

Power inflation is not actually as interesting as you think.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Cake Attack posted:

remind me again why archer wouldn't just let caster kill shirou?

I guess he still has to follow Rin's instructions. Also if Caster takes Shirou's command spells, that's a major powerup for Team Caster, and Archer still wants Rin to win.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


There's magical knowledge and ability you accumulate over generations, and then there's weird new freakish magic that just emerges. Shirou's is something like that.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Rodyle posted:

Waver's whole storyline is that he actually had an inflated opinion of himself and got in over his head. Remember how an ordinary old man broke his hypnotism?

All mages have an inflated opinion of themselves.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I hope there's some kind of alternate history fan fic where Shirou learned to cook Mapo Tofu, and turned Kotomine's life around.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Mapo Tofu is fantastic and also really easy to cook. It's definitely worth giving a try.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Kubla Khan posted:

I know, though it's not nearly as prevalent in Western culture. Not counting the obvious 'Christian movie' drek we still get the 'religious person going through a crisis of faith' type just as often as we get the straightforward villainous type, and sometimes even as the good guy (rarely, but still). I can't think of a single time in anime/game a person of faith didn't out turn to be of the very bad (either corrupt of overly zealous) kind.

Are we just counting Christianity? Because I can think of dozens of shrine maiden/monk type characters. E.g. Sailor Mars.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Raenir Salazar posted:

I guess another thing to ask is why were they so effective? Did they have particularly good stats for fighting monks or was it Shirou downloading all of Archer's fighting skills or both?

Shirou's projection copies the skill and experience and to some extent, the strength associated with the use of the object, not just the object itself.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I think it's much more interesting an explanation (and more consistent thematically in the case of HF) to say that Shirou's abilities reflects his worldview, than claim that it's a result of some magical artifact that happened to be there by chance, even if you can dig out some Nasu quote from some interview somewhere that states it is the case.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I just think it is a less interesting story that way. It is a better story for Shirou's proficiency in projection to be a mirror of his personality, the borrowed nature of his ideal from Kiritsugu, his absence of his sense of self. It is sufficient to explain how his magic is different by the fact that unlike other mages, he thought of his magic as purely a tool to be used, that he self trained via a method that no mage with a sense of self preservation would ever tolerate. The fact that the invocation of UBW is an incantation of Archer's mind state is a great device, and one that delivers meaning to the modification of that incantation by Shirou.

Going back and explaining it all with prana and Origin and other crap is like going back and explaining the Force with midichlorians. It's just meh, and gets in the way of the themes of the story. No one gives a poo poo about Saber's sheath, so why invoke it?

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Rodyle posted:

Because it's not a retcon like midichlorians is, it's from the game.

I don't recall any mention of Shirou's Origin, or any explanation where his magic came from, in the game. In terms of the story, it really seems like Avalon essentially disappears from the game except for that one scene at the end of Fate, where Shirou gets rid of it without any apparent ill effect. So making it sorta pivotal can't help but seem an unwelcome retcon to me.

Given the fact that the sheath essentially doesn't exist in the story outside that one scene, it's hard for me to see it as representing anything, except I guess how forgetful Kiritsugu is that he would leave an uber-powerful healing artifact just lying around, instead of using it to, say, save his own life?

Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Dec 16, 2014

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Raenir Salazar posted:

Makes me wonder if every Magus can have a in theory their own reality marble that reflects their specialty? Its just otherwise normally possible to achieve that level of magic though?

Worth noting that Assassin mastered a variant of the Second True Magic by just practising swinging his sword a lot because he wanted to kill a bird.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Scrree posted:

This is gonna be the nerdiest nitpick I've ever made, but Shirou doesn't live 'as a sword', he lives with a body/soul ' composed of infinite swords' . It's why Avalon being a sheath is important.

Avalon is a good plot device because it explain things that would otherwise be too coincidental, like how Shirou could be the only one to survive the fire or how he could summon Saber with no training, while also getting played with differently in every route. It's of critical plot importance in Fate where it's how Shirou/Saber turn the tides on Kirei/Gil, and in Heaven's Feel it's lack of effect makes Shriou rely more on his magic's 'Healing(?) Through Swords' technique and breaks his body down faster.

1. Shirou survives the fire because he's the one Kiritsugu chooses to save. Whether he used Avalon or some other magic makes no difference. (Also there are other survivors, see also the orphans that Kotomine takes in.) Adding blah about how Avalon usually only works when Saber is around, oh except this one case because some exception, oh also Rin heals Shirou later by an entirely separate method, oh also healing magic exists in this setting anyway, just enormously complicates things.

2. Shirou could summon Saber because the Grail chooses the Masters, and the Grail is an arsehole. That's the first explanation we are given, and that explanation is fine enough. See also F/Z Caster. Avalon doesn't explain jack, in any case, because by the time we learn the existence of Avalon, we had *already* accepted that (a) Rin expected to summon Saber without a catalyst, (b) Shirou apparently did summon Saber without a catalyst, (c) It's the same Saber as previously etc. Suddenly we get told, No Wait Catalysts Are Important, and suddenly we throw in Avalon to explain what really didn't need to be explained. Wouldn't it have been more powerful to have Kotomine be essentially correct, that actually the Grail chose him because of his wish to be a superhero? But nope, the fact that becoming a Master lined up with Shirou's character is just a coincidence.

3. By the time you get into the later stages of the non-Fate routes, we've pretty much forgotten about it. It isn't mentioned again, for sure. Limitations and effects of it are also not spelt out. No one realises it even exists. So like, when Saber dies in HF, we don't think, 'oh poo poo, Shirou can't regen any more!' At least I didn't.

But my big problem with Avalon is that it moves the emphasis of the narrative away from the main theme - Shirou's choices - towards ambiguously described and vaguely powered magical artifacts. The fact that Shirou became Archer becomes not something he decided, but instead ultimately something a neglectful Kiritsugu accidentally decided for him by implanting him with the sheath and not removing it afterwards. Even stuff like the sword-plosion in HF become not a result of Shirou choosing a route where he would save Sakura at the cost of his own life by using the magic of a diametrically opposed worldview, but instead an accidental thing due to Saber having died early on.

We've got a narrative where characters are defined by their determination, where random peasants attain True Magic by pure effort, where Archmaguses became worms with no will except to survive, where we are told that Shirou's real virtue is that he would stubbornly fail to give up (see Rin having watched him attempt a jump over and over again). Explaining Shirou as the product of someone else doing something to him, and not instead as something he did to himself... that just feels weaksauce.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Dec 17, 2014

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Well, I look forward to how confused the other thread is going to be about that line then.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Pureauthor posted:

Older means better in Nasuland

I don't actually agree with this.

Older means technically better. But there's a reason why the protagonists of all these stories are all teenagers facing off against ancient evil and triumphing, and stuff like the Mage Association are fading and decrepit. The ancient evils have better stats, but the moral of most Nasu stories are ultimately 'out with the old, in with the new and the young'.

Gilgamesh reminisces about the old days when everything is better. But at the end of the day, he's the villain, and he and his argument is defeated conclusively.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Mar 26, 2015

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Rodyle posted:

It's actually even better than that: he lost it through 100% honest mismanagement, and upon realizing this just shrugged and figured austerity would be good for her anyway because priest (also it'd be funny) .

Kotomine as a bitcoiner makes a ton of sense.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Good ending is way too happy and ruins the moment Rin and Archer have, I think. (Does it omit it entirely? I don't remember.)

Though I guess Good Ending might make sense if they are adapting HF, to quell the mad hordes of Saber fans....

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


The problem is that they aren't really making clear the significance of what is happening here. One moment Archer is verbally telling us that Shirou is at his limit, then Shirou seems to be doing pretty much the same thing he did before again. Make a sword, hit something breaking the sword, rinse, repeat. It doesn't seem like anything new. Worse Archer's inability to finish the job now seems inexplicable. Suddenly Rin is captured? How? Why?

This really wasn't a good episode.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


Repster posted:

The way I see it is, Shirou was desperate and needed a way out. He lucked out, and collapsed Unlimited Blade Works via his innate connection to it. Forcefully tearing it apart because of two wills acting on it. Can't have two people driving a plane an one going hard left and the other hard right. Breaking reality knocked everybody out, and the Archer just grabbed Rin, because well, he summoned UBW in the first place, and he was aware of it's imminent dispelling, and how to deal with the feedback.

As for not finishing the job... *shrug*

Might be simple as he's starting to have second thoughts that killing Shirou is the right way to go about it. Hence the mano a mano fight to work things out and figure out if it's truly what he wants. And since he KNOWS Shirou is going to show up, and that there's little to no chance of interference from Saber in it, he's confident he can end it then if it is.

Also, story conventions. Shirou is the protagonist, and the story is not over. Dying in a final battle versus Archer is one thing, but getting stabbed in the face while he's knocked out? Nah...

I'm not saying the story should have ended with Shirou dying. I'm saying the way it's depicted in the anime is awkward as hell. They should have supplied the connective tissue to make it all make sense, not go 'oops this can't end right here, expeditious retreat!!!'.

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Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I assume they will be animating Last Episode, because Saber sure isn't gonna get any closure in the HF movies.

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