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Jul 26, 2007

Beef Waifu posted:

I am so excited for Shiro's UBW, you don't even know. That's my favorite fight scene in the whole series where Shiro is keeping up with the strongest servant and all he needed was extra mana from Rin to make it all happen. He just outclasses Gilgamesh in a one-on-one fight and it's the most amazing thing since all Shiro has done prior to that is lose.

No, he could only fight Gilgamesh because UBW is a hard counter to GoB.

1) UBW could fire more NPs per second compared to Gilgamesh, because all the swords are already 'ready'. And thus Gilgamesh have to defend against stray NPs too.
2) Shirou can instantly replace the weapons in his hand while Gilgamesh have to manually pull them out.
3) Shirou could download the techniques, but his body can't keep up (even in HF), but Gilgamesh was only a owner, and have not mastered any of his Noble Phantasm like the other heroes did.
Even with all those advantages, Shirou had to be relentless and strike while the iron was hot, because he knew if Gilgamesh regains composure he would be screwed, this was stated by Shirou himself.

He explicitly stated that even in UBW he wouldn't be a match against other servants.


Even in this world, I am no match against any other Servants.
I cannot match the ultimate one even with infinite swords.
Gilgamesh must have the ability, but I do not.
Therefore---this is the only Servant I can match.
>As we have the same ability, as we are both "owners", I am always one step ahead of him since my swords are there, ready to be used…!


Jul 26, 2007

Fangz posted:

I just don't see Shinji as every being able to be 'scared straight', though, so the resolution of UBW seems so unconvincing to me. If he can't pick on Sakura then he will pick on someone else. His personality is just that sort of nasty exploitative thing.

Reminder that the blood fort thing showed he was willing to kill literally everyone in school to get his way. Someone like that is not redeemable.

But UBW Shinji didn't get much better.


Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Characters, p.134-135

Q: In your original manuscript, does Shinji become a better person after he survives Rin’s route? And does have the potential to find happiness...?

A: No fundamental changes, but since a great burden was lifted off his back (his obsession with sorcery), he'll probably be able to enjoy life as a fussy, loudmouthed, smarter-than-average, troublesome person.

Jul 26, 2007

Twiddy posted:

I also like how this makes complete sense. The original plan is convoluted and requires the unwilling help of other powerful agents. I can understand that getting the necessary vast quantities of energy in the right place doing the right thing is probably super hard, but that doesn't change the fact that the resulting mechanism is unstable as hell. They were setting themselves up for multiple failures before success.

And then the Einzberns had to be sore losers and dump a tanker full of evil into the prize pool without telling anyone.

The thing with the counter force is that it often tries to make any attempt at reach the root fail. Making third party notice the situation or making things more likely to fail. The counter force nudging Ryougi Shiki in the direction of Araya is sort of an example (I guess the involvement of the Nazi and the imperial army that resulted in the destruction of the lesser grail in the 3rd Holy Grail War is also an example). If all hell breaks lose, then it sents the counter guardian in the form of the forces of nature.


Kara no Kyoukai Special Pamphlet - Encyclopedia: Counter Force [Others]

Counter Force [Others]
The Counter Force here is the safety device formed by the collective unconsciousness.
The prayer to avert the demise of mankind, Alaya.
And the prayer to extend the life of the planet, Gaia.
These are the two aspect of the Counter Force.
Both aspects have the goal of extending the existence of the current World. They will eradicate the factors that threaten to destroy the World at the moment of their occurance.
Since the Counter Force is the unconscious, its appearance draws no attention, and no one will recognize it.
The Counter Force is a formless spiral of power. It adjusts its scale based on the target that needs to be obliterated. The Counter Force will always appear with a status above the target, enough to absolutely secure a victory.
Normally, the Counter Force empowers "a normal person" to remove the factor that can trigger destruction. As a result, these individuals are worshiped as "Heroes".
Individuals who became Heroes through the aspect of Alaya are said to be integrated into Alaya after death. However, the accuracy of this statement is uncertain.
These individuals are also called Counter Guardians. The emphasis here is "Counter", because they have no autonomy and will only activate in response to an event.

Randomzx fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Oct 16, 2014

Jul 26, 2007

Blhue posted:

I think Gil says at some point that he doesn't actually need Kotomine's soul farm thanks to getting doused with grail curse juice, but he eats them anyway just because that's the way he rolls.

No, Gilgamesh gained a new 'body' from the mud so he doesn't need the support of the grail to stay in the world. But he still need plenty of energy/power to use all his abilities.

Jul 26, 2007

Aumanor posted:

Well, yeah, but in VN it leaves Berserker without half of his skin, while here he just kinda shrugs it off. Which in light of Rin saying that it was an A-class Noble Phantasm makes even less sense, since God Hand can only nullify attacks up to B-Class. And Invisible Air is only C-class, so it shouldn't even leave a scratch. Uggh.

In the VN Berserker intercepted the broken phantasm with his sword (probably reducing the damage).

Invisible Air just hides her sword's true form and power, which is A++. So Saber did a normal slash and a wind barrier hammer strike which counts as two different attacks (Berserker's God Hand needs to gain immunity to both)

Jul 26, 2007

Hommando posted:

Did Assassin use Tsubame Gaeshi twice in UBW? The reason Saber was able to dodge it during the second fight was because she had bent his sword. She shouldn't have been able to just jump to the side to avoid it.

In the VN the first Tsubame Gaeshi was an incomplete one since the steps wasn't wide enough for him to have the proper stance/footing to add the third slash effectively.

Jul 26, 2007

No, in the UBW VN route, she DEFINITELY faced the technique twice, the narrative even says so. They just didn't show the fight again in UBW and focused on the Archer vs Caster in the VN.

here, a direct quote from the final fight between Saber and Assassin in UBW.


She has experienced the move before.
…The previous one only had an arc to surround his enemy and a vertical slash.
That is why she was able to avoid it and live up to this day.

Jul 26, 2007

Lt. Lizard posted:

I don't think Tokiomi knew that Zouken never intended to make Sakura a heir and was turning her into a disposable grail vessel for the next Grail War and would definitely have some issues with that, but I bet he knew all about Zouken rape worms and what it takes to grant the Matou magic to someone and just considered it a fair price for becoming the heir of a major Magi family.

He knew that Zouken existed, he wasn't surprised about Kariya's use of rape worms when they fought each other, Matou family was living on Tohsaka lands for probably hundreds of years and were close allies and most importantly, I really doubt Tokiomi would give his daughter to a Magi family if he wasn't sure that she would be getting the real deal and that they possessed a powerful magecraft that she would inherit.

Basically Tokiomi was a dick.

There's also the issue of the sealing designation:

from the F/Z LN:


If only he would be able to pass the treasure that he got from his father onto his daughter –
Tokiomi thought sadly.
However, that was already impossible to be achieved.
For Rin and Sakura, there were no choices for them in the first place.
One of them has all elements, having five multiple elements as her alignment. The other has
no elemental alignments, having Imaginary Numbers only. Both sisters have a rare potential
that can be equated to miracles. This had surpassed the limits of so-called natural talents or
inborn skill; it is almost like a curse.
A magical nature would equally gather magical powers to it. Prominent people who are far
outside the rules inevitably ‘gather’ equally extraordinary experiences. This can not be
controlled by the person’s own will. There is only one way to deal with this kind of a destiny
– consciously walk away from the rules yourself.
Apart from understanding and practicing the way of magecraft themselves, there are no other
ways to deal with the magical powers hidden in the blood of Tokiomi’s daughters. Moreover,
the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them. This fact tormented
Tokiomi for a long time. The one who did not become the inheritor would get mired in all
kinds of odd evens due to her own blood, and trouble wound find her. If the Association
found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in
formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’.
Precisely because of that, it was nothing better than a godsend for the Matō house to hope to
have Sakura as their adopted daughter. He had obtained the way to have both his beloved
daughters inherit first-class magecraft, unconstrained by their bloodline’s consequence, and
carve out their own lives. At that time, Tokiomi could be said to be freed from the heavy
burden of being a father.

And Tokiomi doesn't know the exact nature of Kariya's magic, typical magi family knowledge are kept as secrets. So he would definitely wouldn't know about the more extensive procedure done especially for Sakura.
And Zouken wasn't preparing Sakura for the next grail war, 1) he was more planing for the generation after Sakura, 2) the next grail war happened too soon for his plans (due to the leftover excess mana) 3) He only thought about using some pieces of the lesser grail when it was deliberately destroyed. That was why he was fine with Sakura not involving in the 5th grail war.

Jul 26, 2007

BlitzBlast posted:

They're of the extremist "all non-humans must die and anything out of the ordinary is evil" kind, which kind of sucks when your cast is full of non-humans or wizards.

But the Executors and Burial Agency generally welcomes all sorts of freaks, for example, Merem Solomon one of the Dead Apostle Ancestors is an official member of the Burial Agency.

Jul 26, 2007

Sergeant_Crunch posted:

I really didn't think this fight was bullshit at all. He had the advantage of surprise, which is his specialty as an assassin. He had the skill to match a legendary warrior from his years of being a professional killer. Plus his attacks were being visibly strengthened by Caster who, if you don't remember, is a servant whose main specialty is magic. It's not really crazy that he could match a servant under those conditions.


Kuzuki was an assassin trained from birth to learn nothing but the same technique. His snake fist was specifically stated to be able to even deceive expert fighters. But since it is a technique of deceit at heart, experts fighters can easily learn to deal with it after witnessing it.
Even a hand to hand expert like Bazett would be deceived by it. And when he is buffed by Caster....


Comptiq 2006-07 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A:
Q: If Bazett and Kuzuki got in a hand-to-hand fight against each other, who would win?

A: If it's the first fight, then Kuzuki will win. If it's the second fight, then Bazett would pretty much completely win.
Kuzuki could even drive Saber into a corner as long as his trick was kept hidden, but Bazett is also an expert at hand-to-hand combat thought of and developed by human beings. There's the possibility that she might adapt to Kuzuki's "snake" quicker than the Servants, who are more emphasized by their talent. However, since she might underestimate Kuzuki-sensei as being a normal person, Bazett could be beaten pretty simply.

and Caster's reinforcement magic does buff his physical capabilities, including speed.


Fate/Side Material - Encyclopedia: Reinforcement [Magecraft], p.058-059
Reinforcement [Magecraft]
An elementary spell that was extremely difficult to master.
Even though elevating the target's existence through the infusion of mana was the basis of all magecraft, due to the high degree of freedom and lack of concrete protocols, there were very few users who could reinforce everything.
Shirou of course was only a half-baked user who could only reinforce weapon-related objects.
Since Reinforcement enhanced the target's meaning of existence, knives would become sharper, food would become more nutritious, and maids would become more moe.
It was impossible to reinforce something that was exceedingly vague.
By the way, it was difficult to infuse another living being with one's mana, thus Reinforcement of another human was a spell of highest difficulty.

Jul 26, 2007

Pureauthor posted:

Modern humans can't become Servants (or at least it's a vanishingly small chance) because... something Alaya spread too thin, lack of fame, the weapon gets the credit now yadda yadda.

It have to due more with the cynicism of modern humans, heroic spirits are shaped by the people's perception of the heroes at the the time. Modern humans are far less likely to believe in supernatural or superhuman capabilities so they don't think any of the 'heroes' are beyond human abilities. You need to be actually Superhuman/Supernatural or have the people of the era to believe that you are to qualifies (I think being worshipped is an optional requirements). And modern weapons made many feats less impressive to people. For example it is incredible for a human with a sword to kill 500 people, but it is far less impressive to do that with a machine gun.

Counter Guardians are typically a different case though.

Randomzx fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 19, 2014

Jul 26, 2007

Silver2195 posted:

I think this is less true than common sense might suggest. CCC makes it clear that Gate of Babylon was how Gilgamesh fought in life, for example. Some Servants do have powers they explicitly didn't have in life, like the Hanging Gardens for Semiramis, and others have powers they couldn't have had in life, like Medusa riding something born when she died. In general I think added powers like that are linked either to classes or to skills like Innocent Monster; you don't just get new powers as a Servant by default.

Pretty sure Gilgamesh didn't actually shoot out of GoB in f/e ccc flashback. It mentioned the fight got so messy that devolved into Gilgamesh manually throwing his treasury of weapons at Enkidu instead of wielding them.

Also, i'm pretty sure the VN just talked about how Gilgamesh was not the natural wielder of most of his NP in GoB unlike with other heroes that are associated with their weapon. Its was more about him being the owner but not the wielder that was experienced with the NP. I don't think the brawler only was mentioned anywhere, especially when he actually fights with NP several times in the VN


Jul 26, 2007

Silver2195 posted:

It's this that I was referring to. It's just not something I associate with the mythological Gilgamesh, so both versions making him a guy with a collection of magic weapons from various mythologies seems odd.

Well Final Fantasy Gilgamesh was constantly trying to get Excalibur, while F/SN Gilgamesh wants Artoria, the wielder of Excalibur.

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