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Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Saber romance becomes way more fun when you realize you're watching a protagonist/tsundere relationship from the tsundere's perspective. She and Archer are basically the same character (a martyr who has succumb to despair and enters the Holy Grail War in order to change the past) so I don't really understand when people say she isn't thematically relevant to the story.

The various Saber-knockoffs from the spin offs are kind of poo poo, but Saber telling stories from Arthurian legend are some of Hollow Atraxia's best 'fluff' scenes so :shrug:.

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Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Nate RFB posted:

Fate/stay night is ultimately the story of Emiya Shirou and how he comes to terms with his past, present, and future. Archer is obviously vital to this, and Rin serves an incredibly important support role across all routes and helps highlight just how hosed up his mindset is. Saber by contrast is almost a completely self-contained story that just happens to intersect with Shirou's life; you could almost completely remove her in UBW and she effectively does disappear in HF and besides some battles maybe not going so well thematically nothing would change.

Saber and Archer are essentially two sides of the same coin - Saber feels she failed her ideal while Archer feels failed by his ideal - and the fact that Shirou provides the same answer for both of them "I am (You were) not wrong." makes that obvious.

Shirou starts the Fate route totally uncertain of how to live with his ideal, and a lot of what he learns comes from making kneejerk mistakes and then having to correct himself as the story advances. From his desire to protect others comes the chauvinistic smothering everyone loves to call him out for, but by the time they face Rider he has already admitted he was wrong and acknowledged Saber as his partner. Likewise, his love almost transforms into the same possessive desire as Gilgamesh's, but by the end he has grown enough to respect Saber's will more then his own desires. Saber is also a useful viewpoint into Shriou's mindset, into how he sees the process of realizing his ideal as more important than the result.

Shirou at the start of Fate is uncertain and self-duplicitous (it takes him until Day loving 14 to admit he has no regard for his own life), and Shirou at the end of Fate (and going into UBW) is confident in himself and his ability to live up to his ideal. The only question left unasked is whether the ideal itself is worth the devotion, which is Archer's whole issue.

I'm not gonna argue that Fate isn't the worst of the three routes, it is for a lot of reasons, but Saber being unimportant to Emiya Shirou's character development is not one of them.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

What are the chances Ufotable slip a tiny Sakura silhouette in the corner of the pole vaulting flashback? I was happy to see the other orphans in Shirou's adoption memory, and I want them to twist that knife as much as possible.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Irony Be My Shield posted:

Wasn't Kotomine powered up by the grail during HF or something? He may have just been weaker in Fate.

Nah, Kotomine was just overconfident in Fate. He had basically won the Holy Grail War by sitting off to the side and watching the bloodbath, and Shirou was being consumed by the curse of the Angra Mainyu and probably looked as threatening as late F/Z Kariya before he summoned Avalon. Shirou reaching him at all was a complete surprise.

In Heaven's Feel Kotomine had brushed off his rusted combat skills, and more important actually saw Shirou as someone worth fighting instead of someone to mock on the cusp of victory. His last words in Fate are even something like "I've grown so weak."

SALT CURES HAM posted:

e: I actually forgot the most stupidly thing about HF (and hoo boy there's a lot): the fact that Shirou is literally made of swords by the end. They don't really do a great job showing that in the VN but holy god drat it's going to be insane animated.

Scrree fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Oct 14, 2014

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Shinji is just emotionally weak in a way no other character is. Illya might be an amoral monster sometimes (her dead ends :gonk:), but she'll admit defeat and does honestly care about Shirou as her brother. Shinji only ever wants to satisfy his incredible inferiority complex and never once acts with good intentions towards anybody.

He does have a pretty good scene in F/HA where he visits Shirou and basically says "I'm leaving the minute I graduate, gently caress the Matou magi bloodline, I don't plan on coming back." which is a plan that fits 'canonically' with what post-UBW Shinji would probably do. It's still not really enough to redeem him though, given how consistently awful he is in every route, but at least passive avoidance is better then actively loving things up.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Rin asks Sakura to forgive her during the Harem end.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Can someone with a better memory of Tsukihime go over all of the Tohno Family Shenanigans? I was trying to think of how to summarize the game to someone, and while Near Side was pretty clear I couldn't remember Far Side more than Shiki breaks a chair and Crimson Red Vermilion.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

When Shriou is told about his classification powers as a master this graphic



pops up. Its likely that most of the RPGish descriptions from the Status Screen are elements added in for the player, while Shirou views his 'status screen' in a simpler old-parchment style.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

I always assumed he got his soul put into grand jewel Rin used to save his life, since that felt especially thematic.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Kotomine spent a couple years after Fate/Zero traveling the world, growing his hair out, slaughtering heretics in the name of the Chruch, and capturing the heart of a shy Irish Sealing Enforcer. By the time he came back to permanently settle in Fuyuki and prepare for the next Holy Grail War Kiritsugu was about to die/already dead and the only person who knew anything about his actions during the 4th war would be Zouken.

He also managed to set up a orphan-soul-siphon for Gil and ruin Rin's financial inheritance; he was a busy man.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

The best fakeout in the story is when Saber cuts Rider in half during early Heaven's Feel and it looks like she was destined to be an unknown jobber in every route.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Yosuke posted:

It chooses Masters, but Servants are entirely based on the ritual.

Catalysts decide the Servant easier (Shirou having Avalon stuck inside him leading to Saber, for example), buuut if one isn't used, it's based on Master personality. Kind of like how Fate/Zero Caster was summoned the way he was due to a hosed up Ritual as well.

Kariya and Sakura are good examples as well. Kariya wants to be a white-knight cuckolder so he summons Lancelot, and Sakura has sibling issues and the potential to become a inhuman monster so she summons Medusa.

Shirou was able to summon Saber because of Avalon, but he had been chosen as a Master before his life was in danger (he had the bruise on his hand).

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

In the VN Berserker uses his sword to deflect the arrow before it hits his body, the implication being that unlike all the previous arrows he felt it was a threat if it directly hit his body.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Illya (Ill-lia) is how it's always been pronounced so the name change doesn't really bother me.

If Ufotable are going to be adding scenes like breakdance Berserker and Illya actually using magic then I understand why they split UBW into two seasons a lot more. Next episode we should be able to see if they can nail the cheesy slice of life tension with Shirou's house turning into a hotel. Hype for more Taiga.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

I've been reading through the VN (Realta Nua Ver.) with my little sister MY IMOUTO and we came across a japanese food dish with a name we didn't recognize and so decided to google it.



We lost our poo poo for a good minute or two. Rereading the story with someone who has not been spoilered at all (she didn't even know who Saber was, that reveal was awesome) is a great joy. She really liked the RN replacement scenes for Fate route and the romance in general, although she gets annoyed with Shirou when he acts (less and less frequently as the story goes on) like a dumbass about women.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Fangz posted:

The problem for me is mainly that by adapting the first route, you basically miss out on all of the main themes of the story - the idea of the two choices Shirou makes, in UBW, and in HF. Without that theme, Fate's story is just a series of events that happen. Some baddies appear, get nuked by overwhelming firepower, happy ending. Only UBW and HF are interesting as fundamentally stories about protagonists having realizations about themselves.

"It is time for your confession, Emyia Shirou."

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Budget Cop posted:

Hollow/Ataraxia epilogue question: how is everyone still alive? i get rin, sakura and rider being there but saber is there too and lancer is mentioned as being alive still. is it basically just some kind of perfect parallel world where no one except for kotomine died?

Sequel is in the Eclipse section, which is non-canon/ero stuff, so it's not meant to be taken seriously and doesn't follow any of the F/SN routes follows up the Carnival Phantasm route.

Scrree fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Oct 29, 2014

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Happy Halloween UBW, the DBZist route of them all.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Fate/Stay Night's music is the loving poo poo and one of the major reasons why I'll argue that the VN is still worth reading even with all the adaptions out. Finishing a route and going back to the start screen with a new backround and New Dawn starts playing and fuuuuck.

My little sis just finished UBW a couple days ago, and I showed her the Carnival Phantasm Holy Grail Grand Prix section today. She is firmly on the dark path :getin:

On that note, for UBW I told her to get True End first and then double-back for Good End since sunny day is kind of lackluster, but for Heaven's Feel I'm thinking the best order is Sparks Liner High, then Cherry Blossom Dreams, and finish with Return to Spring for maximum catharsis.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Raenir Salazar posted:

Where does Shirou's magic come from then?

Shirou was just a random kid with magic circuits until the 4th Grail burnt his body and soul up. Then Kiritsugu came and saved him by engraving his ideal into his mind and Avalon into his flesh; Avalon then turned him into a living sheath, a magus whose origin and element were both 'Swords' and whose only magic was to summon a world of unlimited blades. This was the only thing ever given to him.

Shirou's magic sucks so much rear end during the beginning of FSN because his mentors are more orthodox Magi who keep trying to steer him down a path that's totally useless to him. There is some evidence for 'Magic Circuit Improvement' in how Archer is able to call on Unlimited Blade Works independently, while UBW-Shirou has to rely on Rin's magical energy to trigger/activate all of his circuits and get enough power to actually summon his Reality Marble. A lot of his early weakness comes not so much from being under-trained as much as being completely oblivious to what his magic actually is.

On Archer's motivation, a lot of what he says in his final pre-battle monologue at Einzbern Castle are basically thinly veiled insults towards himself - like calling Shirou a 'foolish kid who ultimately ends up a clown'. He considers his entire life to have been a complete mistake, and his only goal is to futilely punish himself even with a near-zero chance of there being any actual absolution.

Scrree fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Nov 16, 2014

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Hair-up Gil acts like such an rear end 'cause he's negging Saber.

Hair-down Gil is so overconfident he fights Shirou without bothering to put his armor on.

So basically none of it is an act.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Assassin only uses Tsubame Gaeshi twice in the Visual Novel; the first, incomplete one in Fate, and then the one during the duel with Saber at the end of UBW.

I'm guessing Ufotable added it to the anime for the same reason they had Berserker die and use God Hand in the graveyard, to show off Noble Phantasms to show watchers that readers would already know about by playing Fate.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Fate Stay Night is a story where the four villains are a rapist untermensch, a rapist ubermensch, an elderly patriarch, and a Catholic Priest trying to stop an abortion. And people go around calling it misogynistic because the MC is chauvinistic for the first 1/6th of the story before getting called on it and changing.



It's Frustrating!

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

You guys are forgetting that in Fate Archer spends most of his time hanging out on top of the Emiya household on lookout duty.

Caster is more proactive in UBW because Shirou, without having Rin and Archer at his house, is much less protected.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Rejoice! I'm sure that the Vita Patch will take so long to come out that by the time it's downloadable you'll have forgotten most of it anyways!

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

K. Flaps posted:

Hey guys, quick question. Why do they f*ck with their servants in Fate stay night again? Was it to replenish mana, or was there another reason? Cheers.

You look like you might be new, so I just want to let you know you don't have to censor yourself this forum. We don't loving care about curses here at SA :)

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

New H/A Vita OP's got uploaded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eumsv0MiRXw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4yJoQ4cIQ

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Sakura time it is then

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Hommando posted:

That image seems to imply that Sakura doesn't consider Shinji her brother unless she is forced to deal with him or is reminded of him.

The context of that scene is (spoilered because it's a pretty good joke in H/A) Sakura, Illya, and Saber are having a 'Best Little Sister for Shirou' contest with Taiga and Rin judging. The main gag is that Illya is unexpected bad, Saber unexpected good, and Sakura says things that are a step too dark or gets interrupted/harassed by Rin. Also, everyone's somewhat drunk.

So her saying "If I had an older-brother' does not mean she has disowned Shinji.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Shinji thought he was going to be Harry Potter when he grew up, but then he found out he was actually Cousin Dudley. Also Aunt Petunia died of liver cirrhosis and Uncle Vernon made him rape Harry.

And I guess Harry shacks up with Neville and is Draco's sister in this metaphor? Man, Heaven's Feel is weirder then I remember.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

I'm pretty sure Tokiomi didn't know about Zouken's worm-vampirism shtick. The entire reason he gave Sakura to the Matous was to let her develop her skills as an inheritor, but Zouken doesn't have inheritors, only puppets.

That's also why Kariya was kind of a poo poo despite having a lot of sympathetic scenes - he subconsciously avoided any plan to save Sakura that didn't involve killing Tokiomi and marrying Aoi because he wanted that more then he wanted to save her.

Also, the new H/A OPs might be a bit mediocre, but drat if Sakura doesn't look badass in this shot

Scrree fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Nov 30, 2014

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Medusa is necessary in Heaven's Feel because her legend reflects Sakura's life.

She was greviously hurt, scorned for her injuries and exiled, turned into a monster, and then put down like a dog by the ones who first hurt her.

So when Sakura is in the throws of self loathing and doesn't want to live, Rider is able to say without ambiguity "I was in her place, even if she does not feel like she deserves happiness, she still truly wants it."

She doesn't have much of a character outside of this specific relationship, and I think her H/A scenes are split 50/50 good or terrible, but she does have a real thematic purpose in the novel.

As for her popularity, she's a big ol titty monster with optional blindfold or glasses.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Yeah, I was kind of annoyed that the first Rider flashback featured Takeuchi indulging in his identical-twin fetish, but when it got serious it got good.



Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

This is gonna be the nerdiest nitpick I've ever made, but Shirou doesn't live 'as a sword', he lives with a body/soul ' composed of infinite swords' . It's why Avalon being a sheath is important.

Avalon is a good plot device because it explain things that would otherwise be too coincidental, like how Shirou could be the only one to survive the fire or how he could summon Saber with no training, while also getting played with differently in every route. It's of critical plot importance in Fate where it's how Shirou/Saber turn the tides on Kirei/Gil, and in Heaven's Feel it's lack of effect makes Shriou rely more on his magic's 'Healing(?) Through Swords' technique and breaks his body down faster.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

So yesterday I watched Fate/Zero with my brother, whose only other Type-Moon experience has been watching the UBW anime with me and our sis every Saturday. He has a pretty negative opinion of UBW - basically saying that the fights are cool but the characters act in dumb and contrived ways (which is totally true for the first half of UBW), but he absolutely loved the first five episodes of Fate/Zero. He laughed for a minute straight when it was shown that Kiritsugu fights with guns, and all he could talk about when we finished watching was how awesome Rider is.To be fair, he said that having already watched the slower UBW anime let him jump into the much more chaotic F/Z without having to try and figure out what the Servant classes are or what the hell a Noble Phantasm is.

Hilariously, he totally hasn't connected the Golden Haired Guy talking to Shinji in UBW 10 to Gilgamesh in F/Z, so he keeps speculating how Gil is going to be defeated since Gate of Babylon seems so overpowered.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Along with the Shinji/Rider and Caster routes. RIP to what wonderful clusterfucks those must have been.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

The true romance tiers are Fate (Realta Nua) > UBW (Realta Nua) > Heaven's Feel > UBW > Fate; with Heaven's Feel (Realta Nua) not in the standings because I haven't finished it yet.

Saber's original scenes were some of the worst in the story while her RN scenes are some of the best, Rin works better as a supporting protagonist than a heroine, and Heaven's Feel is about all-consuming love so Shirou/Sakura being super physical at least made sense.

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Mederlock posted:

So I've played through the non-Realta-Nua F/SN like a year and a half ago, watched Zero, the loving awful DEEN adaptation, and the latest cour of the new UBW adaptation. I'm now unfortunately drawn to check out more of the Fate-specific Nasuverse stuff, are any of the other VN's/other stuff any good at all or should I just do a second play through with the Realta Nua patch?



Get it on it

Scrree fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Dec 28, 2014

Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

Have him read Fate. People talk it down a lot but it's pacing is no worse then the other two routes and the actual biggest problem with it (the romance being both central to the plot and incredibly forced) was fixed with Realta Nua.

Fate is also the most direct 'sequel' to Fate/Zero, so if your friend watched that he'll be able to appreciate Saber and Gilgamesh getting resolution for their characters and Shirou surpassing Kiritsugu's mistakes in every way.

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Scrree
Jan 15, 2008

the history of all dead generations,

True Assassin gets marks for not being a completely ineffective skimpily dressed Femme Fatale, which every 'Fate' knockoff work decided would be the easiest way to handle the class.

(Most Shown) Fate/Zero Assassin:

Fate/Prototype Assassin:

Fate/Apocrypha Assassin of Red:

and I'm not posting Assassin of Black because it's just so bad in the worst possible way.

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